About Sabbath

Clare73 said:

The laws of sacrifices; clean and unclean food, houses, garments, houses; bodily defilements, cleansings; Aaronic priesthood, covenant mediator/lawgiver, etc., etc., etc. are in fact abolished (Ephesians 2:15).

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No need to toss the baby out with the bath water.


Wesley's Notes

Verse 15
Having abolished by his suffering in the flesh the cause of enmity between the Jews and gentiles, even the law of ceremonial commandments, through his decrees - Which offer mercy to all; see Colossians 2:14. That he might form the two - Jew and gentile. Into one new man - one mystical body.

Ephesians 2 - Wesley's Explanatory Notes - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org



John C Abbott – Eph 2:15

Verse 15
The enmity; the ground of enmity; that is, of separation and of hostile feeling.--Contained in ordinances; in the Jewish ceremonial law.--One new man; one new community or body.


Albert Barnes – Eph 2:15

Even the law of commandments. The law of positive commandments. This does not refer to the moral law, which was not the cause of the alienation, and which was not abolished by the death of Christ, but to the laws commanding sacrifices, festivals, fasts, etc., which constituted the peculiarity of the Jewish system. These were the occasion of the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles, and these were abolished by the great sacrifice which the Redeemer made;


Matthew Henry
Thus he abolished in his flesh the enmity, Ephesians 2:15. By his sufferings in the flesh, to took away the binding power of the ceremonial law (so removing that cause of enmity and distance between them), which is here called the law of commandments contained in ordinances, because it enjoined a multitude of external rites and ceremonies, and consisted of many institutions and appointments about the outward parts of divine worship. The legal ceremonies were abrogated by Christ, having their accomplishment in him. By taking these out of the way, he formed one church of believers, whether they had been Jews or Gentiles

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The point is that certain Bible details are so obvious that Bible scholarship on both sides of the Sabbath topic admit to them.

dqhall said:

Jesus healed people on the Sabbath. The Jews did not allow healing on the Sabbath.

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But the Word of God did allow it -- as Jesus pointed out.

As you already admitted here

dqhall said:

3 But he (Jesus) said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered into God’s house and ate the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?1 Samuel 21:3-6 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath day the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 But I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’Hosea 6:6 you wouldn’t have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
.

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Col 2 is about not "making stuff up" via the "commandments and traditions of man" and it condemns it.

fatherforgivethem said:

I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.


What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.




Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11


Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17



I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

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Well, Matthew 17:3, Mark 7:6-13, and Luke 16:31 simply are not arguments for keeping Sabbath. The most they can really be used for is rhetorical devices, which are not the same as truly arguing from Scripture, or even prooftexting (which is the practice of taking a teaching or practice, and finding one or a few verses to make it fit; this is at best inferior to deriving a practice from Scripture itself).

The Mosaic commands to keep Sabbath and the Law were definitely given to Jews, but the nations outside of Israel were not held to either. The way Jews look at it, God has certain commands for everyone on Earth to follow, and the Jews have more commands to follow. They regard the Sabbath as one of the additional commands for them to follow, and there have been Jewish teachers that went so far as to say that Gentiles must not keep Sabbath - though there are other Jewish teachers who say they may keep it if they wish.

The verses in Romans, Galatians, and especially Colossians are good evidence for not keeping Sabbath, at very least for Christians who were not born Jewish. There is no New Testament emphasis for any non-Jew to keep Sabbath, the above verses outright say that Christians are not obligated to keep Sabbath - compare this with OT teaching on Sabbath which is far less permissive, and also with other NT teachings against idolatry, greed, and sexual immorality, which are also far less permissive.

All this, and the SDAs were founded by Ellen G. White, who was a false prophet.

dqhall said:

In Acts 15 Paul met the apostles including Peter and they agreed the Gentiles should not bear the full burden of the laws of Moses. Gentile Christians must not fornicate. ...

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And they must not take God's name in vain - and they must not covet and they must honor parents and they must "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- none of which appear in Acts 15.

1. The Church did not tell the gentiles to toss their Bibles out the window and only use 2 sentences as their new Bible.
2. The issue in Acts 15:1 was the totally man-made tradition that the gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved. The issue of "making stuff" up was front and center and the NT church rejected it - choosing to stick with the Word of God - which had no command in it that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved (OT or NT)

Sketcher said:

Well, Matthew 17:3, Mark 7:6-13, and Luke 16:31 simply are not arguments for keeping Sabbath. The most they can really be used for is rhetorical devices, which are not the same as truly arguing from Scripture, or even prooftexting (which is the practice of taking a teaching or practice, and finding one or a few verses to make it fit; this is at best inferior to deriving a practice from Scripture itself).

The verses in Romans, Galatians, and especially Colossians are good evidence for not keeping Sabbath, at very least for Christians who were not born Jewish. There is no New Testament emphasis for any non-Jew to keep Sabbath, the above verses outright say that Christians are not obligated to keep Sabbath - compare this with OT teaching on Sabbath which is far less permissive, and also with other NT teachings against idolatry, greed, and sexual immorality, which are also far less permissive.

All this, and the SDAs were founded by Ellen G. White, who was a false prophet.

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Good to see a poster who has been around these issues for a while on these boards. I remember your posts in the old days. God bless.

Sketcher said:

Well, Matthew 17:3, Mark 7:6-13, and Luke 16:31 simply are not arguments for keeping Sabbath.

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Better to quote the text.

Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Sketcher said:

The most they can really be used for is rhetorical devices, which are not the same as truly arguing from Scripture, .

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The text itself - the mere quote of it - refutes your claims so far.

BobRyan said:

Better to quote the text.

Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”




The text itself - the mere quote of it - refutes your claims so far.

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Actually, it doesn't - since God didn't command Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. The veracity of your claim depends on whether or not the command to keep Sabbath itself can be rightly interpreted to apply to the Gentiles. The Biblical evidence for that simply isn't there.

Sketcher said:

The Mosaic commands to keep Sabbath and the Law were definitely given to Jews, but the nations outside of Israel were not held to either.

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Is 56:6-8 Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;

Isaiah 66:23 - all mankind specifically included in the scope for Sabbath keeping

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"The Sabbath was made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27

"The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

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Life on land on All of planet destroyed due to sin -- Genesis 6-7
Lev 18 - pagan nations destroyed because of sin

Lev 18: 24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off

BobRyan said:

Better to quote the text.

Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

The text itself - the mere quote of it - refutes your claims so far.

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Sketcher said:

Actually, it doesn't - since God didn't command Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

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in fact God specifically singled out gentiles for Sabbath keeping in the OT

Is 56:6-8
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;

Isaiah 66:23 - all mankind specifically included in the scope for Sabbath keeping
For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

"The Sabbath was made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27

"The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

No wonder it is GENTILES asking for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath" in Acts 13 NKJV
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath

imge said:

Sure they did, the Old Testament was written hundreds of years before the New Testament. Jesus often quoted and taught from the OT. If the NT canon was newer than Sunday worship, why didn’t it say clearly say God’s 4th commandment is abolished and the new holy day is now the first day of the week. There is no such scripture and your Church admits that it was not changed by any Biblical scripture. The change happened after the Holy Spirit guided the canons to make the 66 books of the Holy Bible. It was even predicted in Daniel God’s Sabbath would be changed.

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.

The only law that is both a time and a law is God’s 4th commandment. We are to keep Holy the seventh day (time) and is the 4th commandment Exodus 20:8-11 (law).

God bless

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Sunday worship is attested in 1st or 2nd Century sources. The NT wasn't canonised until the 300s. So the Church, according to you was already in apostasy before it gave us the scriptures. So how can you trust the canon given to us by an apostasized Church?

It wasn't clear in the early Church whether or not to include the OT either, nor how much, so again that decision was made by the Church you say was in apostasy.

So did the Holy Spirit guide an apostate Church? It makes a whole lot more sense if you accept the Church that Christ instituted and preserved through the power of the Holy Spirit. If you say the Church fell into apostasy pretty much straight away then you are faced with the fact that your Bible is the product of an apostate Church, which then brings into question it's reliability.

If you accept the Church as Christ's Body on earth, and it's authority as being ordained by the Holy Spirit then there is no conflict, the Church has authority ordained by God to decide that Sunday worship is acceptable.

Sketcher said:

the above verses outright say that Christians are not obligated to keep Sabbath .

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1. No text says that about the weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment.
2. This is a Bible detail admitted to by Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate - in almost all major Christian denominations.

Sketcher said:

All this, and the SDAs were founded by Ellen G. White, who was a false prophet.

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Correction - all Adventist doctrine stands or falls "sola scriptura". I prefer facts.

tall73 said:

Good to see a poster who has been around these issues for a while on these boards. I remember your posts in the old days. God bless.

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ok so that is "instructive"

fatherforgivethem said:

I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.


What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.




Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11


Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17



I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

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The end of your observations seem to indicate that you think we will go to hell if we misinterpret the Sabbath Day. No, if you truly believe in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible, as you appear to, he will protect you from hell even if you get the Sabbath Day interpretation wrong.

That being said, what do you think about the Bible-interpretation approach that is somewhat of a biblical compromise? That is, Jesus' death abolished the Old Testament law's outward form, which was Israel's national law, in favor of his laws for the international church. Those laws of love carried over all of the inner principles of the Old and New Testament commands.

In terms of the Sabbath, the principles of group worship and rest for daily work on one day in seven carry over, but the external form of them disappear. That's the reason the early church was free to move the one-day-in-seven to Sunday to celebrate Jesus' resurrection.

Therefore, all of the Bible texts apply to help us see that most of the Christian church is perfectly able to worship and rest on Sunday according to God's will. But if the SDA church wants to choose Saturday, I'm sure the only true God accepts their sincere worship as well.

Lawrence87 said:

Sunday worship is attested in 1st or 2nd Century sources. The NT wasn't canonised until the 300s.

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I prefer the details given by actual Bible writers.
1. Sola scriptura testing was being done in the first century -- nobody was waiting around for 300 years for someone to tell the what to read.
2 You don't say "Sunday worship was attested in the Bible"

BobRyan said:

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

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BobRyan said:

ok so that is "instructive"

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Is it? How so?

Bruce Leiter said:

The end of your observations seem to indicate that you think we will go to hell if we misinterpret the Sabbath Day. No, if you truly believe in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible, as you appear to, he will protect you from hell even if you get the Sabbath Day interpretation wrong. .

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God will send the Holy Spirit to "Lead you into all Truth" and will inform you that

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

BobRyan said:

No need to toss the baby out with the
bathwater.


Wesley's Notes

Verse 15
Having abolished by his suffering in the flesh the cause of enmity between the Jews and gentiles, even the law of ceremonial commandments, through his decrees - Which offer mercy to all; see Colossians 2:14. That he might form the two - Jew and gentile. Into one new man - one mystical body.

Ephesians 2 - Wesley's Explanatory Notes - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org



John C Abbott – Eph 2:15

Verse 15
The enmity; the ground of enmity; that is, of separation and of hostile feeling.--Contained in ordinances; in the Jewish ceremonial law.--One new man; one new community or body.


Albert Barnes – Eph 2:15

Even the law of commandments. The law of positive commandments. This does not refer to the moral law, which was not the cause of the alienation, and which was not abolished by the death of Christ, but to the laws commanding sacrifices, festivals, fasts, etc., which constituted the peculiarity of the Jewish system. These were the occasion of the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles, and these were abolished by the great sacrifice which the Redeemer made;


Matthew Henry
Thus he abolished in his flesh the enmity, Ephesians 2:15. By his sufferings in the flesh, to took away the binding power of the ceremonial law (so removing that cause of enmity and distance between them), which is here called the law of commandments contained in ordinances, because it enjoined a multitude of external rites and ceremonies, and consisted of many institutions and appointments about the outward parts of divine worship. The legal ceremonies were abrogated by Christ, having their accomplishment in him. By taking these out of the way, he formed one church of believers, whether they had been Jews or Gentiles

============================

The point is that certain Bible details are so obvious that Bible scholarship on both sides of the Sabbath topic admit to them.

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Yes, the ceremonial laws have been abolished because they have been fulfilled.

The early church, from which we get the Christian practice, did not observe Saturday Sabbath, but assembled on Sunday because the full-time Sabbath rest of God had been fulfilled in Christ's full-time salvation rest from our own works of righteousness for salvation (Hebrews 4:9-11).

BobRyan said:

I prefer the details given by actual Bible writers.
1. Sola scriptura testing was being done in the first century -- nobody was waiting around for 300 years for someone to tell the what to read.
2 You don't say "Sunday worship was attested in the Bible"

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1. I'm not sure what you mean. It's pretty common knowledge that in the first couple of centuries there were false gospels that some were espousing as genuine, there were false Epistles, there were sects that held to all the OT laws, there were sects that advocated the abolishment of the OT. Among all these the genuine books were preserved by the traditions of the Orthodox Church. Without which the Bible we have today would not have been canonised. If you deny the authority and divine inspiration of the Church you are basically saying it was luck that this is the canon was preserved and it could have been any of the countless collection of books which may or may not have included the OT.

My point is that you obviously don't think this, like myself you agree these were preserved and collected through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. So we agree that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. My point is that the decision of the Church to institute Sunday as the day of worship is similarly ordained. I don't agree to the concept that scripture is above the Church in authority, I believe it is the opposite, and I go with the Church's interpretation of scripture because without that you come to all kinds of strange ideas.

If Scripture is the only guide why, since the advent of the reformation and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura do we get such a diverse fractioning of Christian sects? Surely if Scripture was an adequate guide in and of itself, you would see a move toward unity? In actual fact since then you only see more fracturing and diversity which is a testament to the fact that scripture alone as the source of dogma is insufficient.

2. There are some indications of Sunday worship in Acts. And St. Paul is pretty clear that observing the Sabbath is no longer necessary. I can get the references when I am at my computer.

Nevertheless even without these things, the first day of the week is consecrated by the resurrection of Christ, thus marking it as the day of creation and resurrection, the two most important events in history. So it's not beyond reason that the Church decided to celebrate on this day, rather than to continue with the traditions of those who rejected Him.

imge said:

I’m not the one doing that. I actually posted direct quotes.

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Is that all you present?

BobRyan said:

Is 56:6-8 Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping.
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;

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BobRyan said:

"The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

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It's better to quote the whole sentence than just half of it, especially with point you're trying to make:


So, let's examine this:

"and holds fast my covenant" - we have to ask which covenant. There was the Old Covenant, in which Gentiles could convert to being Jews if they wished, but they would need to keep the whole Law (which would have included Sabbath), but Christians are under the New Covenant as described in Hebrews.

"these I will bring to my holy mountain" - this would comport with converts to Judaism coming to Jerusalem to worship with the rest of the Jews, which would be a feature of the Old Covenant.

"their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar" - this comports with the Old Covenant as well, since that was the covenant that involved burnt offerings and sacrifices at the altar at the temple. The book of Hebrews however, tells us that because of Jesus, no further sacrifices at the altar are necessary, and furthermore, that Jesus' sacrifice is the only one of value in accordance with God's plan of salvation.

BobRyan said:

Isaiah 66:23 - all mankind specifically included in the scope for Sabbath keeping

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

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Examining the passage:

That is under the new Heaven and the new Earth, but it's not saying that Sabbath-keeping or that New Moon festivals will be observed. Rather, it's a way of saying from month to month, and from week to week, God will be worshiped.

BobRyan said:

"The Sabbath was made FOR Mankind" Mark 2:27

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. . . but not mankind for the Sabbath. And if we examine the passage, it shows that it isn't right to teach that every man must follow the Sabbath strictly, as that is what the Pharisees were doing:

BobRyan said:

"The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

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We most certainly do, but nothing in that verse suggests an SDA interpretation of Sabbath. Sure, the Sabbath was commanded to Jews - so were many other things that SDAs do not keep, so one still has to ask the question of "which commands?" Rev 14:12 does not tell us those commands, so it's not an argument from Scripture in this case, but rather a rhetorical device.