The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Saint Steven · Apr 18, 2021

Chi.C said:
Damnatinism - Hell is not scriptural (needs addition of inferred truisms from pagan mold). It is like a 33 year old going still remembering the hey days of the terrible 2s. Spiritual fulfillment must be carnal!
Ultimate Redemption is like teenage wisdom where Oprah Winfrey is king. "Why can't we all just get along". All path ways are good - not just Jesus.
The only one that is "adult" is annihilationism. Cause and effect. Responsibility for ones own action. There are caveats. But these are nuances.

So your vote is for Annihilationism then?
What does that say about your definition of what the Bible is about? God's plan for global genocide?

Ceallaigh · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
And its usage in the NT shows its meaning whenever we find it there:

1) the eternal resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1) is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53),
2) eternal life (John 3:16) is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1Co 15:53),
3) Christ's eternal kingdom (1Pe 1:11) is without end (Luke 1:33),
4) eternal sin is never forgiven sin (Mk 3:29),
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season, ending), what is unseen is eternal (unending) -- (1Co 4:18)

Did you ever watch that 20 minute video where the fellow who's Greek was better than his English went over all that?

Saint Steven · Apr 18, 2021

MMXX said:
Did you ever watch that 20 minute video where the fellow who's Greek was better than his English went over all that?

Do you mean this one?

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Clare73 · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
1) the eternal resurrection body(2 Corinthians 5:1) is immortal(1 Corinthians 15:53),
2) eternal life (John 3:16) is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53),
3) Christ's eternal kingdom (2 Peter 1:11) is without end (Luke 1:33),
4) eternal sin is never forgiven sin (Mark 3:29),
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season, ending), what is unseen is eternal (opposite of ending) -- (2 Corinthians 4:18)

"Doubt" about the plain meaning of "eternal" in the NT is just another refuge for unbelief.

MMXX said:
Did you ever watch that 20 minute video where the fellow who's Greek was better than his English went over all that?

The examples presented above illustrate the meaning of "eternal" as used in the NT.
There's nothing to go over, it's as plain as the nose on your face, unless you're vested in erecting a camouflage for unbelief.

Ceallaigh · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
Prophecy is not didactics (teaching), but often symbolic rather than literal, given in riddles rather than clearly (Numbers 12:8) and, therefore, subject to more than one interpretation.

Jesus' NT teaching on disobedience to the law resulting in punishment is not prophecy or riddle anymore than his second coming and the final judgment are prophecy or riddle, and are to be taken as stated.

Actually there's a likelihood that a lot of it was prophecy and national judgement regarding the downfall of Jerusalem

Ceallaigh · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
There's nothing to go over, this is as plain as the nose on your face, unless you're vested in erecting a refuge for unbelief.

Not if you let yourself see past the nose on your face.

And unbelief? Seriously? Seems like they did a real number on you. Super ultra Southern Baptist?

Clare73 · Apr 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Do you mean this one?
Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

In none of those verses above--not one, zip, nada, zero--is the word aionios (age-lasting) used. Another form of the word is used which does not mean age-lasting.

The following illustrations of aionios to mean "eternal" in NT usage remain:

1) the eternal resurrection body (2 Corinthians 5:1) is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53),
2) eternal life (John 3:16) is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53),
3) Christ's eternal kingdom (2 Peter 1:11) is without end (Luke 1:33),
4) eternal sin is never forgiven sin (Mark 3:29),
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season, ending), what is unseen is eternal (opposite of ending)
(2 Corinthians 4:18)

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

MMXX said:
Not if you let yourself see past the nose on your face.

And unbelief? Seriously? Seems like they did a real number on you. Super ultra Southern Baptist?

Physician, heal thyself!

The nose that is not being seen past is not on my face, that would be on your face.

And the real number hasn't been done on me, it's been done on you in the misrepresentation of
post #743, above, which I am exposing here.

If that isn't a false construct misrepresenting the meaning of aoinois in order to justify unbelief, I haven't seen one.

Anathema! . . .it's time to stop this ruse!

Clare73 · Apr 18, 2021

MMXX said:
Actually there's a likelihood that a lot of it was prophecy and national judgement regarding the downfall of Jerusalem

Very little of the gospels is devoted to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ceallaigh · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
Very little of the gospels is devoted to the destruction of Jerusalem.

When I first read the OT prophets, a long time ago, I was amazed at the similarity of what they had to say to Israel before Babylon wiped them out, to what Jesus said. I think it's no coincidence that He appeared within a generation of Rome wiping them out, to give them many judgements and warnings beforehand.

mkgal1 · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
Very little of the gospels is devoted to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Let me start with this.....what Jesus said to the first century religious leaders (and the text says they knew He was referring to them):

From Mark 12:
Read the parable of the Wicked Tenants

Matthew 21:33–46; Luke 20:9–18)

1Then Jesus began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a wine vat, and built a watchtower. Then he rented it out to some tenants and went away on a journey.2At harvest time, he sent a servant to the tenants to collect his share of the fruit of the vineyard. 3But they seized the servant, beat him, and sent him away empty-handed.4Then he sent them another servant, and they struck him over the head and treated him shamefully.5He sent still another, and this one they killed.

He sent many others; some they beat and others they killed.6Finally, having one beloved son, he sent him to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.7But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8So they seized the son, killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.9What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants, and will give the vineyard to others. 10Have you never read this Scripture:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.11This is from the Lord,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’a?”12At this, the leaders soughtb to arrest Jesus, for they knew that He had spoken this parable against them. But fearing the crowd, they left Him and went away

Also

John 11:48
If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Clare73 · Apr 18, 2021

mkgal1 said:
Let me start with this.....what Jesus said to the first century religious leaders (and the text says they knew He was referring to them):

From Mark 12:
Read the parable of the Wicked Tenants

Matthew 21:33–46; Luke 20:9–18)

1Then Jesus began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a wine vat, and built a watchtower. Then he rented it out to some tenants and went away on a journey.2At harvest time, he sent a servant to the tenants to collect his share of the fruit of the vineyard. 3But they seized the servant, beat him, and sent him away empty-handed.4Then he sent them another servant, and they struck him over the head and treated him shamefully.5He sent still another, and this one they killed.

He sent many others; some they beat and others they killed.6Finally, having one beloved son, he sent him to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.7But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8So they seized the son, killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.9What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants, and will give the vineyard to others. 10Have you never read this Scripture:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.11This is from the Lord,

and it is marvelous in our eyes’a?”12At this, the leaders soughtb to arrest Jesus, for they knew that He had spoken this parable against them. But fearing the crowd, they left Him and went away

Also

John 11:48
If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Do you see a large portion of the gospels as referring to destruction of Jerusalem, in terms of volume?

Lazarus Short · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
I'm not aware of any significant differences between the English and the Greek.
When someone challenges the English text.

Yes, it is Gehenna in the Greek, translated "hell" in English.

What's the problem with assigning a new English word to a Greek word for which we have no translation?

That's how we got "church" for ekklesia (called-out assembly).

Don't see what the issue is, agape in the Greek is translated "love" in English.

None of this negates the common Greek usage of aionios, etc. which is the same usage in the NT--everlasting, unending, etc.

Thank you for answering one question out of three.

mkgal1 · Apr 18, 2021

Clare73 said:
Do you see a large portion of the gospels as referring to destruction of Jerusalem, in terms of volume?

I do see that a large portion of the Gospels were referring to the end of the covenant made on Mt Sinai with Moses as the mediator between God and the Israelites and a change happening with a superceded new covenant sealed in Jesus that was promised throughout the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31, for instance).

The taking the kingdom away from the apostate 1st century religious leaders and giving it to a people that will produce good fruit (the 1st century church) is a significant part of the plot of the New Testament (in my belief).

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Ceallaigh · Apr 18, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Do you mean this one?

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

That's the one. It tells me one should be able to read the original Greek fluently as like a first language to get a proper grasp.

Ceallaigh · Apr 19, 2021

Saint Steven said:
So your vote is for Annihilationism then?
What does that say about your definition of what the Bible is about? God's plan for global genocide?

I don't see it that way myself. I see that version being conditional immortality. Those not interested in salvation just simply die the same as people die a physical death. Everlasting life is given to those who want it. The conditions of that everlasting (or age lasting) life being in worship and service to God.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2021

MMXX said:
I don't see it that way myself. I see that version being conditional immortality. Those not interested in salvation just simply die the same as people die a physical death. Everlasting life is given to those who want it. The conditions of that everlasting (or age lasting) life being in worship and service to God.

Where do we disagree? People die in a genocide, right?
As I understand it, Annihilationism is incineration rather than the supposed "eternal" torment of Damnationism. How do you see it?

Saint Steven said: ↑
So your vote is for Annihilationism then?
What does that say about your definition of what the Bible is about? God's plan for global genocide?

Ceallaigh · Apr 19, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Where do we disagree? People die in a genocide, right?
As I understand it, Annihilationism is incineration rather than the supposed "eternal" torment of Damnationism. How do you see it?

Well as far as strict annihilation goes, I suppose that would be incineration in the Lake of Fire. But like I said, I see the unsaved, unwilling, rebellious ones just not having immortality or carrying on into the next age. That would just be them dying a natural death so to speak, rather than God snuffing them out. The Bible says a lot about everlasting or age lasting life as opposed to death. I'm not voting for that, that's just my take on that version out of the three views.

Shrewd Manager · Apr 19, 2021

Chi.C said:
Damnatinism - Hell is not scriptural (needs addition of inferred truisms from pagan mold). It is like a 33 year old going still remembering the hey days of the terrible 2s. Spiritual fulfillment must be carnal!
Ultimate Redemption is like teenage wisdom where Oprah Winfrey is king. "Why can't we all just get along". All path ways are good - not just Jesus.
The only one that is "adult" is annihilationism. Cause and effect. Responsibility for ones own action. There are caveats. But these are nuances.

The old 'adults only Bible', eh?

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mt 11:25)

God expects us to not bring our worldly pride to the interpretation of scripture, but to take His word for the incredible promises He makes, for instance:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23, as reiterated and revealed in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:9-10).

Now if God tells me the earth is flat and He's going to convert everyone, who am I to question?

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (Job 38:4)

So do you have the courage to let God be true and every man a liar?

Shrewd Manager · Apr 19, 2021

MMXX said:
Well as far as strict annihilation goes, I suppose that would be incineration in the Lake of Fire. But like I said, I see the unsaved, unwilling, rebellious ones just not having immortality or carrying on into the next age. That would just be them dying a natural death so to speak, rather than God snuffing them out. The Bible says a lot about everlasting or age lasting life as opposed to death. I'm not voting for that, that's just my take on that version out of the three views.

How does that view address the Great White Throne Judgment? Generally annihilationism teaches that God wakes the sinner up...just to kill him again (after forcing him to his knees to confess). The mind boggles.

Shrewd Manager · Apr 19, 2021

Clare73 said:
God is not mocked by this charade.

But don't ever let that stop you trying.

The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

You can call me Steve

May God be with you and bless you.

You can call me Steve

Blood-bought

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

May God be with you and bless you.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

You can call me Steve

May God be with you and bless you.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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