Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

LoveGodsWord said:

Let's talk more latter I have to go out for now. I would like to see why you no longer think the Sabbath which is Gods' 4th commandment that is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 is no longer a part of God's standard for Christian living. So if we could get back on topic I am keen to discuss this with you and I think it would be great.

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No matter how many times I state my goal to go through all of the evidence you just ignore that and say I haven't made an argument.

Do you not realize that if we look at every text, there is not going to be a conclusion on the whole topic mentioned every time we look at a piece of evidence?

These are the sorts of comments you have made to indicate your lack of interest in going through all of the texts:

LoveGodsWord said:

The way I am seeing it is that it has taken this long and I do not see any arguments your making that support your view

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LoveGodsWord said:

I am being honest with you by saying that I do not believe you have put up an argument

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LoveGodsWord said:

I am yet to hear your view as you have not made any argument from the scriptures that I am aware of in regards to why you no longer keep the Sabbath that I can see in this thread.

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And apart from not wanting to go through all of the texts, you continue to make appeals as though we have already concluded it is required.

LoveGodsWord said:

Let's pray that we are not of those who reject God's Word being referred to by the prophets of old and harden our hearts to hearing God's Word.

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LoveGodsWord said:

According to the scriptures, if we reject God's Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin once God shows is what sin is we stand before God guilty of sin and in danger of the judgement according to Hebrews 10:26-31.

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LoveGodsWord said:

So who should we believe and follow God or man? According to the scriptures God holds us accountable for what we know not what we do not know in James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31.

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LoveGodsWord said:

According to the scriptures all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God

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LoveGodsWord said:

So to claim we are following God according to the scriptures while breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken is not saving faith but the faith of devils who believe but do not follow *James 2:17-20; 26.

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We have no agreement it is required. So why do you keep putting these appeals?

You don't seem to want to go through all of the evidence. So we are finished with the discussion.

tall73 said:

No matter how many times I state my goal to go through all of the evidence you just ignore that and say I haven't made an argument.

Do you not realize that if we look at every text, there is not going to be a conclusion on the whole topic mentioned every time we look at a piece of evidence?

These are the sorts of comments you have made to indicate your lack of interest in going through all of the texts:

And apart from not wanting to go through all of the texts, you continue to make appeals as though we have already concluded it is required.

We have no agreement it is required. So why do you keep putting these appeals?

You don't seem to want to go through all of the evidence. So we are finished with the discussion.

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I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. Those comments are already posted sometime after many scriptures had been shared with you over many posts throughout this thread. What you have taken from me is taken out of post context. Perhaps it might be better if you summarize your view so we can examine what it is you believe and what your argument is as to why you believe Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is not longer a requirement for Christian living. At the moment if I am being honest with you, I am the none wiser even after all these pages in this OP. I do not see you have posted any evidence at all that show Christians are no longer required to be obedient to Gods' 10 commandments or the Sabbath which is one of the 10 that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

You added to your post so I will wait.

tall73 said:

You added to your post so I will wait.

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I added nothing that changed what was said the first time. Only fixed up typos and readability. Feel free to check it. I do that in a lot of my posts.

LoveGodsWord said:

Those comments are already posted sometime after many scriptures had been shared with you over many posts throughout this thread. What you have taken from me is taken out of post context.

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Those were all just since Thursday, when I began going through all of the texts.

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox


We had only gone through Ex. 19 and 20, and Exodus 16. We had begun going through Genesis 2, and Exodus 31, and Deuteronomy 5 but had not finished yet.

There are probably 100 texts to go in looking at the evidence.

Perhaps it might be better if you summarize your view so we can examine what it is you believe and what your argument is as to why you believe Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is not longer a requirement for Christian living. At the moment if I am being honest with you, I am the none wiser even after all these pages in this OP.

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No, I am not willing to just throw out a statement and have you post a bunch more Scripture references without us going through all the evidence or data.

tall73 said:

Those were all just since Thursday, when I began going through all of the texts.

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox


We had only gone through Ex. 19 and 20, and Exodus 16. We had begun going through Genesis 2, and Exodus 31, and Deuteronomy 5 but had not finished yet.

There are probably 100 texts to go in looking at the evidence.



No, I am not willing to just throw out a statement and have you post a bunch more Scripture references without us going through all the evidence or data.

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The context is provided in the whole discussion not a few posts at the end of a discussion. What did you provide in Exodus 19; Exodus 20; Exodus 16; Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5 that says that Gods' Sabbath is no longer a requirement for Christian living in the new testament? - Nothing that I can see. What did I miss? You do know that the old covenant also includes the Mosaic book of the covenant (law) right *Exodus 24:7 not just the 10 commandments. You may have missed this in your linked post. There is a lot that we agree with in your previous posts and there are things of course we do not agree with but for what we may not agree scripture has been provided to show why we may agree or disagree. I am only being honest with you when I say that I am yet to see a clear argument for your reasoning in our discussion so far as to why you believe God's 4th commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living in the new covenant and it really should not take this long to show your argument or to help us to understand what your argument is. That is why I was asking for a summary of what you believe so we can understand your argument and then you can defend it with scriptures so we can see why you believe your claims are true and if we disagree we can show why we may agree or disagree. It is up to you though. I am only giving you some feedback as I am yet to understand your argument and without doing so it is hard to have a discussion on this topic.

LoveGodsWord said:

That is why I was asking for a summary of what you believe and then you can defend it

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Already answered. No, I am not willing to make a summary statement without going through all the evidence of the various texts.

I did enjoy some of the discussion had in the thread.

LoveGodsWord said:

I am only giving you some feedback as I am yet to understand your argument and without doing so it is hard to have a discussion on this topic.

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Why can you not discuss various points about Sabbath texts, and look at the meaning, and implications in order to examine evidence if you don't have my full view yet?

Your thoughts on the text, and my thoughts on the text are not dependent on you knowing my view. But sharing them helps us understand more about the text and the possible implications for any view.

If people are reading along in the thread it walks them through all of the texts. If you just immediately jump into debate then those who are not familiar with the usual arguments won't get the whole picture. And we may be talking past each other if we don't compare notes.

tall73 said:

Why can you not discuss various points about Sabbath texts, and look at the meaning, and implications in order to examine evidence if you don't have my full view yet? Your thoughts on the text, and my thoughts on the text are not dependent on you knowing my view. But sharing them helps us understand more about the text and the possible implications for any view.

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I have been doing just this, for quite some time now in this thread, looking at your texts, their meanings and application for our whole conversation so far. I am trying to understand your arguments and implications of the text you are providing and their relationship to the Sabbath commandments and God's 10 commandments and have not been able to do so therefore finding it a little hard to follow relevance to the Sabbath discussion and what exactly your argument is. For me I do not think it would be so difficult to know Gods' requirements on subject matter. If we have to look at 100+ texts for example without knowing what the point of looking at 100+ texts without seeing how they connect to the Sabbath discussion I think your going to lose people before they can understand what your point is. That is my honest feeling and why I provided some feedback. Like I said earlier, we have already discussed Exodus 19; Exodus 20; Exodus 16; Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5 and I still cannot see what the relevance of these scriptures are in regards to your view that the Sabbath and why you might think that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is not a requirement for Christian living in the new covenant. Of course I always like talking with you even if you find me a little frustrating sometimes. It is not my intention to be frustrating though so you may have to forgive me if you feel that way sometimes.

LoveGodsWord said:

I have been doing just this looking at the texts, their meanings and application for our whole conversation so far. I am trying to understand your arguments and implications of the text you are providing and their relationship to the Sabbath commandments and God's 10 commandments and have not been able to do so therefore finding it a little hard to follow relevance to the Sabbath discussion. For me I do not think it would be so difficult to know Gods' requirements on subject matter. If we have to look at 100 texts without knowing what the point of looking at 100 texts without seeing how they connect to the Sabbath discussion I think your going to lose people before they can understand what your point is.
That is my feeling. Like I said earlier, we have already discussed Exodus 19; Exodus 20; Exodus 16; Exodus 31 and Deuteronomy 5 and I still cannot see what the relevance of these scriptures are in regards to your view that the Sabbath is not a requirement for Christian living in the new covenant.

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Most folks already think it is simple. They quote Colossians 2, and perhaps Romans 14, and they move on.

But at that point sabbatarians usually raise a complication or two, and want to look at many other texts, because it is not THAT simple.

Understanding the covenants, law, and all the various Sabbath texts is not, in fact, simple.

LoveGodsWord said:

If we have to look at 100+ texts for example without knowing what the point of looking at 100+ texts without seeing how they connect to the Sabbath discussion I think your going to lose people before they can understand what your point is.

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I didn't come here to make that point to start with. You asked about that point.

tall73 said:

Most folks already think it is simple. They quote Colossians 2, and perhaps Romans 14, and they move on. But at that point sabbatarians usually raise a complication or two, and want to look at many other texts, because it is not THAT simple. Understanding the covenants, law, and all the various Sabbath texts is not, in fact, simple.

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To me it is simple if we claim God's promises and ask him to be our guide and teacher. I do not see anything that makes it otherwise if we are not trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach. Anyhow to each there own. Perhaps you can continue and I will add some comments here and there.

tall73 said:

Now you mentioned the book of the law of Moses. Please post something that uses that phrase and quotes Genesis.

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Pentateuch is a synonym of torah. The Torah: the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures, attributed to Moses and therefore also known as the Five Books of Moses.

from: Pentateuch vs Torah - What's the difference?.
torah
English
(wikipedia Torah)
Proper noun
(en proper noun)

• The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures, attributed to Moses and therefore also known as the Five Books of Moses.

Tradition holds that the Torah was handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai.

• The full body of written Jewish law, including the Tanakh, the Talmud, the Mishnah and the midrashic texts.

It says in the Torah that both gossip and murder cause irreparable damage.

• The whole of Jewish law, both written and unwritten.

• The encompassing philosophy of Judaism.

Synonyms
* (Five Books of Moses) Pentateuch
Noun

• (en noun)

• A specially written scroll containing the five books of Moses, such as those used in religious services.

An anonymous donor has provided us with a lovely new Torah .

• A book containing the five books of Moses.

There was a lovely leather-bound Torah on the bookshelf.
Synonyms
* Books of Moses * the Law * Pentateuch *

Law and the prophets

from: Questions on John the Baptist—“The Law and the Prophets” | Biblical Foundations for Freedom

The “Law and Prophets” is a common New Testament way of describing the Old Testament Bible and its associated covenant—what we commonly call the Old Covenant or Old Testament (same meaning). In Luke 24:44, Jesus uses the rarer threefold description. The Psalms, here, represents the portion of books described as ‘Writings.’

Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

BobRyan said:

Law and the prophets

from: Questions on John the Baptist—“The Law and the Prophets” | Biblical Foundations for Freedom

The “Law and Prophets” is a common New Testament way of describing the Old Testament Bible and its associated covenant—what we commonly call the Old Covenant or Old Testament (same meaning). In Luke 24:44, Jesus uses the rarer threefold description. The Psalms, here, represents the portion of books described as ‘Writings.’

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Indeed. And in I Corinthians Paul uses just law when referring to Isaiah.

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Do you think Isaiah was written by Moses, or included in the law placed by the ark?

Again, the point is that the book in Deut. 31 indicates it is the laws given to Israel. It doesn't indicate the material in Genesis which was not made up of laws. Can you post some text that says the material in Genesis was included?

LoveGodsWord said:

To me it is simple if we claim God's promises and ask him to be our guide and teacher. I do not see anything that makes it otherwise if we are not trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach. Anyhow to each there own. Perhaps you can continue and I will add some comments here and there.

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Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.


Ok, then we can just leave it really simple, and we can skip the 100 texts. One esteems a day above another, another esteems every day.

Good thread.

LoveGodsWord said:

I do not see anything that makes it otherwise if we are not trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach.

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Now that we worked that out, can you explain why Seventh-day Adventists believe Moses wrote Job?

tall73 said:

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
Ok, then we can just leave it really simple, and we can skip the 100 texts. One esteems a day above another, another esteems every day.

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Hmmm nope. You have to read the Sabbath into that scripture when it is not there. There is no mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14. The topic of discussion is eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards. It is not talking about what days God esteems. The things that men esteem according to Luke 16:15 are an abomination to God.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hmmm nope. You have to read the Sabbath into that scripture when it is not there. There is no mention of the Sabbath in Romans 14. The topic of discussion is eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regards not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem according to Luke 16:15 are an abomination to God.

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Why are you complicating it? It says one esteems a day, others see all days alike. That is not complicated.

It says one observes a day...the other doesn't.

There are two separate disputable matters. This is one of them. The other is the eating only vegetables.

The overall topic is not to judge others over disputable matters.

tall73 said:

Now that we worked that out, can you explain why Seventh-day Adventists believe Moses wrote Job?

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I have no idea it is the first time I have ever heard some Adventists believe Moses wrote the book of Job. All I could find on authorship of Job is Ancient Jewish writings (teaching) ascribes the book of Job to be written by Moses. Now does it matter?