No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

Shodan · Mar 28, 2021

rambot said:
My point is that they are realizing that the nonsense they experience is being experienced by many many other black people. And that those stories are TRUE and REAL and that there are systemic problems.

The stories can be true and real, without showing that there are systemic problems.

One of the problems with BLM and the related social justice movement is that it seems to rely mostly on anecdotes, and not all of those anecdotes are as BLM is presenting them.

Michael Brown was the kick off case. BLM would have us believe that he was shot for wearing a hoodie while he had his hands up. The problem is, it is neither true, nor real, that he was shot for any such reason. He was ten minutes off a strong arm robbery, and when the officer spotted and stopped him, he punched the officer in the face and tried to grab his gun. Jamar Clark was another example. He attacked the rescue workers who came to treat his girlfriend's ankle, which he had broken.

Both those cases were true and real. Did they show up any systemic problems with US policing? No. If you attack people, especially the cops, you tend to get shot more than would be the case for the general population. Now we got the George Floyd case. If Chauvin is convicted, then that is certainly a horrible case of police misdoing. What does it have to do with Floyd's race? Nothing that I can see - Chauvin was trying to arrest Floyd for passing counterfeit bills, while Floyd was high on Fentanyl, and had heart problems (as well as the recent use of methamphetamine). It doesn't mean Floyd deserved to die But it doesn't demonstrate anything about race - Floyd wasn't arrested or restrained because of his race.

In order for BLM to have me believe that there is systemic racism in US policing, you need more than anecdotes. Especially if those anecdotes don't seem to show anything about race.

Based on things like this, we should "defund the police"? Not AFAICT.

Regards,
Shodan

Pommer · Mar 28, 2021

Shodan said:
The stories can be true and real, without showing that there are systemic problems.

One of the problems with BLM and the related social justice movement is that it seems to rely mostly on anecdotes, and not all of those anecdotes are as BLM is presenting them.

Michael Brown was the kick off case. BLM would have us believe that he was shot for wearing a hoodie while he had his hands up. The problem is, it is neither true, nor real, that he was shot for any such reason. He was ten minutes off a strong arm robbery, and when the officer spotted and stopped him, he punched the officer in the face and tried to grab his gun. Jamar Clark was another example. He attacked the rescue workers who came to treat his girlfriend's ankle, which he had broken.

Both those cases were true and real. Did they show up any systemic problems with US policing? No. If you attack people, especially the cops, you tend to get shot more than would be the case for the general population. Now we got the George Floyd case. If Chauvin is convicted, then that is certainly a horrible case of police misdoing. What does it have to do with Floyd's race? Nothing that I can see - Chauvin was trying to arrest Floyd for passing counterfeit bills, while Floyd was high on Fentanyl, and had heart problems (as well as the recent use of methamphetamine). It doesn't mean Floyd deserved to die But it doesn't demonstrate anything about race - Floyd wasn't arrested or restrained because of his race.

In order for BLM to have me believe that there is systemic racism in US policing, you need more than anecdotes. Especially if those anecdotes don't seem to show anything about race.

Based on things like this, we should "defund the police"? Not AFAICT.

Regards,
Shodan

See post #140

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Giuliani is not a reliable source of information. As the article points out over 1000 people were killed by police with 25% being black and 55 known unarmed incidents.

My point is, the number of unarmed blacks killed by the police pales in comparison to the number killed via black no black homicide, but BLM and those who support it ignores the homicide and focus on those unjustly killed by police. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Police shouldn't be held accountable or that they shouldn't have eyes on them, it's just that the media, the politicians, and all of the powers that be seem to be marching in lockstep with BLM and they are ignoring the homicide which kills far more than the cops. If you gonna say black lives matter, it has to include the thousands killed by homicide also

LockeeDeck said:
Police investigate themselves the majority of the time and what would they have to go off on if the police turn off their cameras besides the word of the police involved?

How often does that happen? Perhaps when it does, the case should be thrown out; then see how often they start turning their cameras off before shooting up the place.

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

Strathos said:
And? My point was that the concept was so simple that children could understand it.

I’ve already explained why it is condescending and insulting to tell people what they already know

Strathos said:
None of those were replies to my post.

Which of your posts were you referring to?

Strathos said:
The intended meaning of the slogan should be obvious, so the fact that they have to go out of their way to mischaracterize it like that indicates that they are desperate to find fault with the message.

Sounds like you are reading a little too far into their objections.

Strathos said:
History informs the present. If someone started up a new group today with a red-and-black swastika for an emblem, that wouldn't be acceptable, even if they insisted that it had nothing to do with the Nazis and their use of the symbol. Context matters.

The connotations of "black power" is a self-affirming resistance against oppression. Could people co-opt that slogan for evil purposes? Sure. But the majority of its historical uses have been benign, which is not the case with "white power".

You can't look at these things in a vacuum absent of any and all cultural context.

It would be foolish to assume the people shouting black power back in the day did not have racist attitudes against white people, it’s just that back then such attitudes were completely understandable considering what they were going through with white people of that day. But today things are different; white people of today are different than white people of 50 years ago, so what was understandable and acceptable by black people then, is not today.

Strathos said:
What are you even saying here? Of course everyone deserves equal rights and treatment, but that doesn't mean that society is currently giving it to them.

I said nothing about deserving equal treatment. Care to try again? This time address what I actually said.

Strathos said:
Your claims here are disingenuous, as it's been shown statistically that black people are statistically much more likely to be victims of police brutality than white people in America.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Try again; this time address what I said.

Strathos said:
Scenario 1: A bunch of poor to middle-class people make some jokes mocking and insulting billionaires.

Scenario 2: Billionaires make some jokes mocking and insulting poor and middle-class people.

Do you honestly think these are morally equivalent?

Yes! Wealth does not add or take away your right to be a jerk; neither does being poor.

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

rambot said:
If that was your ONLY point it would be a lame point. But that is t the crux of your point.

That IS my entire point. I said they were getting false information from the media, and they are reacting to this false information; that's it!

Aldebaran · Mar 28, 2021

Strathos said:
That's the original people who coined the term. It's moved beyond that. Do you think that every single person who uses the slogan is a member of that specific organization?

Those who chant the slogan obviously agree with those who coined it. Words matter, don't they?

LockeeDeck · Mar 28, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
My point is, the number of unarmed blacks killed by the police pales in comparison to the number killed via black no black homicide, but BLM and those who support it ignores the homicide and focus on those unjustly killed by police. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Police shouldn't be held accountable or that they shouldn't have eyes on them, it's just that the media, the politicians, and all of the powers that be seem to be marching in lockstep with BLM and they are ignoring the homicide which kills far more than the cops. If you gonna say black lives matter, it has to include the thousands killed by homicide also

The two issues are not entirely unconnected, minorities are less likely to call the police because they don't trust the police. This leads to more issues being settled personally and in the streets. Either way it's possible for different people to have different valid causes. Heart disease vs breast cancer for example.

How often does that happen?

Often enough for it to be a meme and a real world problem.

Perhaps when it does, the case should be thrown out; then see how often they start turning their cameras off before shooting up the place.

I would agree but that's not how the system currently works.

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
The two issues are not entirely unconnected, minorities are less likely to call the police because they don't trust the police. This leads to more issues being settled personally and in the streets.

I don’t think that is a minority problem, (especially when you consider in minority neighborhoods, there is a much higher chance of having minority cops patrolling) but a criminal problem. If my criminal enterprise gets attacked, obviously I ain’t gonna call the police looking for justice.

LockeeDeck said:
Either way it's possible for different people to have different valid causes. Heart disease vs breast cancer for example..

The problem with solving black on black crime is; it’s a problem only black people can fix and it’s much easier to point to something else as the cause of our problems instead of looking within. So when someone stands up and points to crooked cops, racism, crooked politicians, income inequality, racist laws, or some such thing that is outside of our control, everybody gets behind them to fight this other thing because it requires something/someone else change without us having to change ourselves.

The quickest route to failure in life is to insist other people need to change in order for you to succeed. When you place your ability to move foreword outside of your control, particularly in the hands of others you will have little motivation to try to improve your conditions because you are convinced your destiny is outside of your control

Black Lives Matter is just another someone standing up pointing to something else as the bane of our problems (in this case white racist cops) rather than looking within, and everybody is getting behind them because it’s easier to point the finger at that someone else than looking at what WE can do to improve our conditions.

renniks · Mar 28, 2021

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
But it is. The riots happen before the true stories even come out. And with floyd for example, most people never did get the true picture of what went on. They just reacted to a short video clip.
The same thing happened with the kid who shot three people in self defense. The news put out false information about him immediately and most never got the true story. We are a knee jerk reaction culture, now more than ever. Truth doesn't matter, only perception.

rambot · Mar 28, 2021

renniks said:
But it is. The riots happen before the true stories even come out. And with floyd for example, most people never did get the true picture of what went on. They just reacted to a short video clip.
The same thing happened with the kid who shot three people in self defense. The news put out false information about him immediately and most never got the true story. We are a knee jerk reaction culture, now more than ever. Truth doesn't matter, only perception.

You've quoted two.

How many were there protests over? How many have there been in recent years?

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Let me give you a couple examples.

George Floyd (black man) died while being arrested by the a white cop who put him on his stomach and a knee on the back of his neck. Now the reality is, a couple years before Floyd died this way, several white guys died the exact same way (Tony Tempa, Timothy Coffman) they were on drugs, they were put on the ground and the cops put a knee on their neck till they died. But most people are unaware of this happening to white people, they only think it only happens to black people because the media didn’t report it happening to the white guys so everybody reacts as if it only happens to black people.

Crack Cocaine has extra penalties associated with it’s use compared to Powder cocaine due to the destruction Crack had on poor communities. This was seen as racist because the face of Crack has always been a black face, and the face of powder cocaine is a white face. But the reality is, people with money use powder cocaine, and poor people use Crack. More white people use crack than blacks, even though on a percentage basis more blacks use it (more poor whites than poor blacks, but poor blacks are a larger percentage than poor whites). So even though whites get the same extra penalty for crack as blacks get, most people assume only blacks use crack because that is what you see in the media instead of the reality that all races use the drug; thus the law was deemed racist against blacks, and people are reacting accordingly

renniks · Mar 28, 2021

rambot said:
You've quoted two.

How many were there protests over? How many have there been in recent years?

How many what? Justified or otherwise?
There were riots over a man shot after stealing an officers tazer and trying to use it on him.
There are unjustified shootings, but statistically they are so rare that it can't be called a trend.

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
So you admit it happens. You must also acknowledge the instances you know of are special because the police got caught and if that's the case there must be more that we don't know about.

Sure...let's say that it happens 3 times more often than we catch it happening.

What is your point? We're talking about nearly a million law enforcement officers....and hundreds of millions of interactions with the public every year.

Given that they are people....and people are always going to make bad decisions.....how many of these bad decisions have to happen before you have a problem?

Besides the numerous systemic abuses? There are former cops that talk about it and how wide spread it is.

Confessions of a Former Bastard Cop

That looks anonymous.

That's not someone who wants accountability....that's someone pushing an agenda.

What's his name and what police force did he work for? I didn't see this anywhere

Mass election fraud conspiracies are not even physically possible, the logistics just don't work.

Do you think every democratically elected official everywhere is legitimate? You think Putin magically wins every election?

How possible do you find it that police would lie on a report to cover up for a buddy that just shot someone?

Or that a cop would plant evidence to get an easy conviction and boost their numbers?

I don't know....I guess we could speculate on how often that happens. We could also do serious research and try to find out.

My guess is that it's somewhere between a serious problem and barely an issue of concern.

Also there is the issue of no whistleblower protections for police and the abuse of people who turn their buddies in.

Adrian Schoolcraft - Wikipedia

Actually it's far worse than that....

We had border patrol agents leaking pictures of crowded migrants in tiny enclosed areas to prove that Democratic politicians were lying about there not being a crisis. The response was to call them nazis running concentration camps.

The lesson was that blowing the whistle just makes you look bad....it's never rewarded.

How about when the Louisville police leaked training photos that showed quotes about battle and life and death fighting from a variety of unsavory sources....including Hitler. The NYT surely will take that info and use it carefully to ensure that a fair assessment of why that happened takes place?

Nope....they got painted as a bunch of trigger happy nazis who are all goose stepping the streets of Louisville. There's a lesson here about whistleblowing....

They don't need protection from their colleagues as much as they need protection from the public, media, and all the other people who complain about law enforcement not calling out bad law enforcement.

You should be congratulating these people and not using the information they provide against them. They don't talk about bad colleagues because it only makes their lives harder....there's literally no upside.

Aldebaran · Mar 28, 2021

renniks said:
How many what? Justified or otherwise?
There were riots over a man shot after stealing an officers tazer and trying to use it on him.
There are unjustified shootings, but statistically they are so rare that it can't be called a trend.

In that one after the guy tried using the tazer, the rioters burned down the Wendy's whose parking lot it happened in. Some sort of "social justice", I'm sure.

LockeeDeck · Mar 28, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I don’t think that is a minority problem, (especially when you consider in minority neighborhoods, there is a much higher chance of having minority cops patrolling) but a criminal problem. If my criminal enterprise gets attacked, obviously I ain’t gonna call the police looking for justice.

Criminal enterprises that are allowed to grow because bystanders do not trust the police.

The problem with solving black on black crime is; it’s a problem only black people can fix and it’s much easier to point to something else as the cause of our problems instead of looking within. So when someone stands up and points to crooked cops, racism, crooked politicians, income inequality, racist laws, or some such thing that is outside of our control, everybody gets behind them to fight this other thing because it requires something/someone else change without us having to change ourselves.

The quickest route to failure in life is to insist other people need to change in order for you to succeed. When you place your ability to move foreword outside of your control, particularly in the hands of others you will have little motivation to try to improve your conditions because you are convinced your destiny is outside of your control

Black Lives Matter is just another someone standing up pointing to something else as the bane of our problems (in this case white racist cops) rather than looking within, and everybody is getting behind them because it’s easier to point the finger at that someone else than looking at what WE can do to improve our conditions.

Are you saying the black community cannot focus on two issues at once?

LockeeDeck · Mar 28, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
Sure...let's say that it happens 3 times more often than we catch it happening.

What is your point? We're talking about nearly a million law enforcement officers....and hundreds of millions of interactions with the public every year.

Given that they are people....and people are always going to make bad decisions.....how many of these bad decisions have to happen before you have a problem?

It's what is done about those bad decisions is what matters. Police in general face no consequences for their actions unless it makes international news and even then only sometimes.

That looks anonymous.

That's not someone who wants accountability....that's someone pushing an agenda.

What's his name and what police force did he work for? I didn't see this anywhere

Probably didn't want blowback by the police, they do have a history of harassing people who speak out.

Do you think every democratically elected official everywhere is legitimate? You think Putin magically wins every election?

I was speaking specifically of the 2020 election but even Putin has issues rigging his elections. That's why so many of his political opponents fall out of windows.

I don't know....I guess we could speculate on how often that happens. We could also do serious research and try to find out.

My guess is that it's somewhere between a serious problem and barely an issue of concern.

Agreed more research does need to be done. We lack a lot of information because police pushback on cameras and oversight.

Actually it's far worse than that....

We had border patrol agents leaking pictures of crowded migrants in tiny enclosed areas to prove that Democratic politicians were lying about there not being a crisis. The response was to call them nazis running concentration camps.

The lesson was that blowing the whistle just makes you look bad....it's never rewarded.

How about when the Louisville police leaked training photos that showed quotes about battle and life and death fighting from a variety of unsavory sources....including Hitler. The NYT surely will take that info and use it carefully to ensure that a fair assessment of why that happened takes place?

Nope....they got painted as a bunch of trigger happy nazis who are all goose stepping the streets of Louisville. There's a lesson here about whistleblowing....

They don't need protection from their colleagues as much as they need protection from the public, media, and all the other people who complain about law enforcement not calling out bad law enforcement.

You should be congratulating these people and not using the information they provide against them. They don't talk about bad colleagues because it only makes their lives harder....there's literally no upside.

Are you saying no one should whistleblow for anything ever?

Ken-1122 · Mar 28, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Are you saying the black community cannot focus on two issues at once?

What they are capable of is irrelevant; I'm saying they are not focusing on the more important issues.

Eight Foot Manchild · Mar 28, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
What they are capable of is irrelevant; I'm saying they are not focusing on the more important issues.

That's not the focus of BLM, and they're not obligated to make it the focus of the movement. There are dozens and dozens of other organizations, on local and national levels, that focus on violence in black communities. My band donates a part of our proceeds to one of them regularly - Violence in Boston. If you actually care, you can very easily find one close to you with a quick google search, and donate yourself.

If you don't actually care, then you're just engaging in vacuous, moralistic bloviating.

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2021

rambot said:
False information.
Because you can't believe black people and their stories seem unbelievable.
My whole point is the information is not false. Nor is it false (by default) when they share their stories with each other.

Nonsense.

There's people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. They form groups, share stories, etc. They even have videos of UFOs that they call proof.

Does that mean that we should believe them without any evidence? Should we just believe them because they're making a claim? Should we believe their interpretation of the video "evidence"?

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2021

Eight Foot Manchild said:
That's not the focus of BLM, and they're not obligated to make it the focus of the movement. There are dozens and dozens of other organizations, on local and national levels, that focus on violence in black communities. My band donates a part of our proceeds to one of them regularly - Violence in Boston. If you actually care, you can very easily find one close to you with a quick google search, and donate yourself.

Has donating made any measurable difference in violence?

No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

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