No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

[ThatRobGuy]

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying here...or why you think "All Lives Matter" was a shallow response. It was. It was made, primarily, by people who were concerned their problems were being dismissed politically in favor of the problems another group wanted to address.

I don't think it was so much that it was because people thought their own problems were being dismissed, I think it was because so many of the people who touted the "All Lives Matter" slogan were doing it purely as a way to oppose a far leftist ideology. (rather than just being blunt about why they opposed the movement)

I have friends and family on both sides of the isle, and the people I know who love to prop up the "All Lives Matter/Blue Lives Matter" slogans in their yards and social media pages don't even have any particular grievances that they feel are being overlooked, they just don't like the BLM movement and the "All Lives Matter" has become the de facto rebuttal to it.

I've tried to encourage them to make a more specific argument about their objections to it, because without specificity, there's nothing stopping the other side from lumping them in with the people who oppose BLM purely for racist reasons.

 

[Aldebaran]

We're not talking about a specific organization, but a movement. The movement to end racist policing practices, and the goals and methods that implies. Attacking the people who coined the slogan is nothing but a poisoning the wall fallacy.

They're not a specific organization? Don't tell them that.

"#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

 

[Ken-1122]

They say it because they want action to be done to show that black lives matter.

Then address the 7,000 black lives snuffed out via homicide from black on black crime, and quit looking the other way concerning this issue.

Any group will have bad actors in it, it's what is done about those bad actors is what matters.

Nothing is being done about them because there are too may racist that have power within the organization.

The police have killed over 1000 people last year with a disproportionate about of them black.

I said unarmed killings.

Heart disease kill more people than breast cancer, are you saying that nothing should be done about breast cancer because of that?

If only 9 people were dying of breast cancer every year, but 7,000 from heart disease, and if all the attention of saving the 9 each year from breast cancer was taking away the focus of saving the 7,000 dying from heart disease, I would say YES! Quit focusing on Breast cancer, and direct your focus on saving those dying of heart disease.

 

[Ken-1122]

What I HAVE been telling you that you are neither acknowledging or addressing is the fact that they are hearing other stories. Floyd is one. There have been many. And there have been many other less than appropriate but maybe not newsworthy I interactions.

And where are they getting these stories from? The NEWS!!! you're making my point.

 

[Ken-1122]

You directly stated that the child did not understand the message. What is your proof of that?

They are little children

Anyone can read the thread and see you didn't.

Anyone can read posts #77, #107 & #109, to see I did address the issue.

Judging by many of the responses to the slogan, it seems many people don't know this, as they make the dishonest assumption that it means 'only black lives matter'.

That makes no sense. How does making that assumption mean they are unaware that black people’s lives matter?

"White Power" and "Black Power" are fundamentally different, because the latter has historically been used as a rallying cry of the oppressed in response to unjust laws, whereas the former has the historical connotation of violent supremacist movements that intended to establish those laws. You have to ignore the entire history of the country if you want to claim that they are in any way equivalent.

I’m not talkin’ about what happened a hundred years ago, I’m talking about TODAY! White power attracts white racists, black power attracts black racists. The only difference is in todays society white racists are vilified but black racists are given a pass and is considered acceptable. But that doesn't make it right.

Do you understand the difference between punching up and punching down?

Do you understand black people are not below white people? We are your equal; and you just can’t stand that now can you?

Other things killed a lot more people than COVID-19 did, so by your logic they should have never bothered developing the vaccine.

If only 9 people died from COVID-19 and developing a vaccine was preventing finding cures for the countless other diseases killing people by the thousands, we shouldn’t have bothered developing the vaccine.

 

[LockeeDeck]

Then address the 7,000 black lives snuffed out via homicide from black on black crime, and quit looking the other way concerning this issue.

Nothing is being done about them because there are too may racist that have power within the organization.

I said unarmed killings.

If only 9 people were dying of breast cancer every year, but 7,000 from heart disease, and if all the attention of saving the 9 each year from breast cancer was taking away the focus of saving the 7,000 dying from heart disease, I would say YES! Quit focusing on Breast cancer, and direct your focus on saving those dying of heart disease.

This only 9 people narrative you are clinging to is fatally flawed. That's how many police got in trouble for killing, not how many people the police killed, many of them also unarmed. Also those 9 were special cases as cameras were present to catch the police in their lies.

Let me ask you this, do you believe the police told the truth in every other instance despite all the evidence of police lying on their reports and planting of evidence?

 

[driewerf]

If the content was thought to be good enough, they wouldn't have to use their children to display it.

Exploiting one's children is rarely "right".

Let us see how this logic works:

 

[Ken-1122]

This only 9 people narrative you are clinging to is fatally flawed. That's how many police got in trouble for killing, not how many people the police killed, many of them also unarmed. Also those 9 were special cases as cameras were present to catch the police in their lies.

No, it was 9 unarmed blacks killed
‘More police officers are shot and killed by blacks than police officers kill African-Americans,’ claims former New York Mayor Giuliani

Let me ask you this, do you believe the police told the truth in every other instance despite all the evidence of police lying on their reports and planting of evidence?

Shooting investigations don't depend on the cops telling the truth. Why do you ask?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think it was so much that it was because people thought their own problems were being dismissed, I think it was because so many of the people who touted the "All Lives Matter" slogan were doing it purely as a way to oppose a far leftist ideology. (rather than just being blunt about why they opposed the movement)

All Lives Matter appeared as a response almost immediately after Ferguson. This is well before it was well known that BLM embodied a far left ideology. It was still masking itself as a legitimate successor to the civil rights movement.

The difference was that the civil rights movement of King was inclusive, color blind, and harmless.

We don't like to talk about the black supremacist, anti-semitic, violence against the police and US authority to achieve "liberation at any cost" side of the movement. The side that got busted up by Hoover and COINTELPRO. We imagined it disappeared as a peculiar one-off.

Sadly, that seems like a mistake. It moved into universities. It seems impolite as a white person to bring up the racist nature of these groups....and we are starting to pay the consequences of it.

I have friends and family on both sides of the isle, and the people I know who love to prop up the "All Lives Matter/Blue Lives Matter" slogans in their yards and social media pages don't even have any particular grievances that they feel are being overlooked, they just don't like the BLM movement and the "All Lives Matter" has become the de facto rebuttal to it.

If they had a grievance...who determines the legitimacy of it? I can imagine a situation where you are belittled and mocked so there's no real point to airing your grievances.

I've tried to encourage them to make a more specific argument about their objections to it, because without specificity, there's nothing stopping the other side from lumping them in with the people who oppose BLM purely for racist reasons.

Who are these purely racist reasons people?

I've heard that said of anyone who disagrees with BLM....they must be racist. The problem with your complaint is that police and law enforcement in general are not allowed to engage in political advocacy in any way really. The public can demonize the police...but if the police were to form a protest group that demonized the way certain segments of the public interact with them...you'd have a real problem.

Maybe it would work though. What would the result be if police posted video after video telling their side of the story and showed an almost endless number of people acting extremely foolish? What if they focused on one race in particular?

 

[Ana the Ist]

This only 9 people narrative you are clinging to is fatally flawed. That's how many police got in trouble for killing, not how many people the police killed, many of them also unarmed. Also those 9 were special cases as cameras were present to catch the police in their lies.

Let me ask you this, do you believe the police told the truth in every other instance despite all the evidence of police lying on their reports and planting of evidence?

Where's "all the evidence"?

I've admittedly seen a handful of instances of lying and far less of planting evidence.

If you have evidence that it's more widespread....please share.

Otherwise, this is a conspiracy theory on par with mass election fraud.

The movement to end racist policing practices, and the goals and methods that implies.

What are these racist practices and methods?

Do you understand the difference between punching up and punching down?

Yes....people who claim to be punching up aren't just racist or bigoted....they're hypocrites.

 

[MrMoe]

I have a question.
Whenever someone points out that a higher percentage of white people are killed by police than black people, the response is almost always "Well, black people are disproportionately killed by police."
My question is: Why does proportion matter more than percentage?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have a question.
Whenever someone points out that a higher percentage of white people are killed by police than black people, the response is almost always "Well, black people are disproportionately killed by police."
My question is: Why does proportion matter more than percentage?

It doesn't....they drop the statistics that don't help their position.

 

[Danthemailman]

 

[renniks]

So you judge the vast majority of the people killed by the police as deserving to die? How Christian.

Even though the police have been proven to lie on police reports and plant evidence and celebrate murdering?



Indeed, if someone broke down your door and yelled police would you wait to see if they really were police or not?



You do know that cops have zero obligation to do anything to defend anyone right?

In fact the officer that was fired for not doing anything at the Parkland shooting got a payday and his job back.



Cops in other countries deal with people with knives too, and they have far fewer kills. It's not required to kill at the slightest potential threat.

Well if you ever need a cop to protect you from harm, you can always hope you get the one that doesn't think that's his duty. I'd rather have the ones who do their sworn duty to serve and protect.

You obviously have a problem with law enforcement. Just like the thousands of other confused people who would rather live in anarchy, until that actually happens, and people start getting killed and raped and then they start begging for someone to enforce the law.

 

[LockeeDeck]

Well if you ever need a cop to protect you from harm, you can always hope you get the one that doesn't think that's his duty. I'd rather have the ones who do their sworn duty to serve and protect.

They don't have to do anything to help anyone, the supreme court literally ruled it's not their duty.

You obviously have a problem with law enforcement. Just like the thousands of other confused people who would rather live in anarchy, until that actually happens, and people start getting killed and raped and then they start begging for someone to enforce the law.

It's not that I have a problem with law enforcement it's that law enforcement has a lot of problems.

 

[LockeeDeck]

No, it was 9 unarmed blacks killed
‘More police officers are shot and killed by blacks than police officers kill African-Americans,’ claims former New York Mayor Giuliani

Giuliani is not a reliable source of information. As the article points out over 1000 people were killed by police with 25% being black and 55 known unarmed incidents.

Shooting investigations don't depend on the cops telling the truth. Why do you ask?

Police investigate themselves the majority of the time and what would they have to go off on if the police turn off their cameras besides the word of the police involved?

 

[LockeeDeck]

Where's "all the evidence"?

I've admittedly seen a handful of instances of lying and far less of planting evidence.

So you admit it happens. You must also acknowledge the instances you know of are special because the police got caught and if that's the case there must be more that we don't know about.

If you have evidence that it's more widespread....please share.

Besides the numerous systemic abuses? There are former cops that talk about it and how wide spread it is.

Confessions of a Former Bastard Cop

Otherwise, this is a conspiracy theory on par with mass election fraud.

Mass election fraud conspiracies are not even physically possible, the logistics just don't work.

How possible do you find it that police would lie on a report to cover up for a buddy that just shot someone?

Or that a cop would plant evidence to get an easy conviction and boost their numbers?

Also there is the issue of no whistleblower protections for police and the abuse of people who turn their buddies in.

Adrian Schoolcraft - Wikipedia

Btw that case was about quotas, how do you think those quotas were met?

 

[Erik Nelson]

notice that people are taught to think of themselves as this-or-that color before (instead of?) "American"

 

[Strathos]

They're not a specific organization? Don't tell them that.

"#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

That's the original people who coined the term. It's moved beyond that. Do you think that every single person who uses the slogan is a member of that specific organization?

They are little children

And? My point was that the concept was so simple that children could understand it.

Anyone can read posts #77, #107 & #109, to see I did address the issue.

None of those were replies to my post.

That makes no sense. How does making that assumption mean they are unaware that black people’s lives matter?

The intended meaning of the slogan should be obvious, so the fact that they have to go out of their way to mischaracterize it like that indicates that they are desperate to find fault with the message.

I’m not talkin’ about what happened a hundred years ago, I’m talking about TODAY! White power attracts white racists, black power attracts black racists. The only difference is in todays society white racists are vilified but black racists are given a pass and is considered acceptable. But that doesn't make it right.

History informs the present. If someone started up a new group today with a red-and-black swastika for an emblem, that wouldn't be acceptable, even if they insisted that it had nothing to do with the Nazis and their use of the symbol. Context matters.

The connotations of "black power" is a self-affirming resistance against oppression. Could people co-opt that slogan for evil purposes? Sure. But the majority of its historical uses have been benign, which is not the case with "white power".

You can't look at these things in a vacuum absent of any and all cultural context.

Do you understand black people are not below white people? We are your equal; and you just can’t stand that now can you?

What are you even saying here? Of course everyone deserves equal rights and treatment, but that doesn't mean that society is currently giving it to them.

If only 9 people died from COVID-19 and developing a vaccine was preventing finding cures for the countless other diseases killing people by the thousands, we shouldn’t have bothered developing the vaccine.

Your claims here are disingenuous, as it's been shown statistically that black people are statistically much more likely to be victims of police brutality than white people in America.

Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex

What are these racist practices and methods?

Here's one.

Yes....people who claim to be punching up aren't just racist or bigoted....they're hypocrites.

Scenario 1: A bunch of poor to middle-class people make some jokes mocking and insulting billionaires.

Scenario 2: Billionaires make some jokes mocking and insulting poor and middle-class people.

Do you honestly think these are morally equivalent?

 

[rambot]

And where are they getting these stories from? The NEWS!!! you're making my point.

If that was your ONLY point it would be a lame point. But that is t the crux of your point.
No. Your point is that they are brainwashed and being tricked into doing something they don't fundamentally agree with because the msm is insideous liars that are manipulating them.
For some reason now, responding to news stories that align with your experiences is now considered being brainwashed. Like, as soon as you get me to admit they watch the news, somehow your point is made.

I'm saying that's a stupid argument.

My point is that they are realizing that the nonsense they experience is being experienced by many many other black people. And that those stories are TRUE and REAL and that there are systemic problems.