Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

LoveGodsWord said:

Let's get something straight here before proceeding so there is no misunderstandings between anyone here. A legalist is one who seeks their salvation from the law outside of Christ.

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Understood. We are saved by grace. We keep Christ's commandments out of love. The discussion here is which commandments He requires.

LoveGodsWord said:

Very simply for me I believe Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says; [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled is in application to all law.

That is Jesus fulfilled all the "shadow laws" of the old covenant that point to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17, all the laws in ordinances *Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15 which is δόγμα (dógma: G1378) meaning "civil, ceremonial of ecclesiastical laws" from the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378 and includes all the "shadow laws" of things to come pointing to the body of Christ in Colossians 2:17 including all the ceremonial laws for remission of sins, as typified in the earthly Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood and the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings etc. Therefore Jesus has not abolished the old covenant "shadow laws" that pointed to him as they are fulfilled and continued in Him under the new covenant based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6).

The application of Matthew 5:17 is also to obedience to all of God's 10 commandments Jesus perfectly fulfilled them so that he could become God's perfect lamb without spot or blemish to be offered for the sins of the world according to the old covenant laws in Leviticus 1:3; Deuteronomy 15:21; Leviticus 22:19-24; Hebrews 9:14; John 1:29; 36; 1 Peter 1:19 which is also God's will for His Church *Ephesians 5:27 which all were prophetic "shadow laws" pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

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Jesus obeyed all of the law, not just the 10 commandments. He was born under law. And yes, He was sinless, and a Lamb without blemish.

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant "shadow laws" for remission of sins and God's 10 commandments in order to become God's sacrifice for the sins of the world where we can see Gods' love for sinners of who I am Chief! Jesus is now our high Priest, God's sacrifice for the sins of the world ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man for the sins of the world.

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Jesus fulfilled the Sacrifice. The Jewish believers kept the law still, but understanding Him as the fulfillment. Gentile believers were not party to the various convocations of Israel. Since they were not circumcised they couldn't keep the Passover anyway.

Christ is our High Priest., and ministers on our behalf.

tall73 said:

I can't limit what folks post. Let's take the conversation as a whole now that numerous folks have posted their position. Now that we have your view and you have read some of my position I think we can start focusing on differences.

This is a major difference that impacts the rest of the discussion for me. However, I also can't control what you post. So answer if you wish.

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Why are you not willing to start the discussion with the posts I have just provided? I said already we can discuss everything in the post you provided. Your trying to make the discussion too broad which I am fine with but we need to start somewhere right not go all over the place as the topic is very broad. Can we start with the two posts I have sent to you please?

LoveGodsWord said:

Jesus does not stop here however. Matthew 5 is more than a declaration about Jesus coming to fulfill the laws in order to be the promised Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the word to everyone who would receive him *John 3:16.

In fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21 Jesus came to magnify the requirements of God's 10 commandments applying them to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:22-27 while stating earlier in Matthew 5:20 that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper than outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Genesis 6:5 which was the reason mankind was destroyed the first time in the flood *Genesis 6:7-13. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart Jesus says is what defile a man *Matthew15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28 or that we can have a form of Godliness but deny God's power to save us from our sins *2 Timothy 3:5. Jesus says that this topic is very important for us to understand in Matthew 9:12-13 if we expect to receive God's salvation in our own lives personally.

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I agree Jesus was concerned with our mind being renewed, writing the law on the Heart and mind. However, it was not just the ten that Jesus referenced in Matthew 5.

This is the new covenant promise of God’s salvation in those who believe his Word and why we need to be born again through faith *1 John 5:3-4 to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10; John 8:32-36; James 2:10-11; 1 John 2:3-4.

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More than the 10. And not sinless perfection, or else there would be no need for John to say that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive. Yet he wrote to them that they would not sin. And we should not excuse sin.

If we are not born again into God’s new covenant promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 24:13.

Righteousness comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's law and the very expression of what love is *Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know god for God is love * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:3 and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN *John 3:3-7 in to walk in the Spirit *Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16 under Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love we will not enter God’s Kingdom *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the inside out which is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5.

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See last comment.

LoveGodsWord said:

I see so it sounds like a smoke screen to me. Why are you not willing to start the discussion with the posts I have just provided?

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I am starting with them. I just said I can't control what everyone posts. However, by addressing every point I am actually making it more confusing. I posted my most substantial disagreement from the outset.

tall73 said:

I am starting with them. I just said I can't control what everyone posts. However, by addressing every point I am actually making it more confusing. I posted my most substantial disagreement from the outset.

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No problem take your time as I need to go out for a while. May God bless you as you seek him through His Word. Talk more latter

LoveGodsWord said:

All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; Romans 3:19-20. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods’ Word and reject it according to the scriptures will not enter into God's kingdom because they reject the gift of God’s dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God’s grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 6:23.

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James addressed more than the ten. For instance, he spoke of showing partiality.

However, more to the point, James was most likely addressing all Jewish believers. Some even think his letter was written before gentiles came into the church.

He specifically quotes from the ten commandments as well. And we agree that anyone who breaks the law breaks all of it, but this is not just limited to the ten either. Sin is sin. And sin should be repented of, and not continued in as you note.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments or the 613 in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

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Already addressed at some length. But it is the whole law, not the ten commandments that point out sin. Romans quotes from the ten. There are certainly more than 10. And the question is what the gentiles keep, because per Acts 15 they were not required to be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses.

Sunday is not the Sabbath.

LoveGodsWord said:

Love establishes God's law in those who believe and follow God's Word (Romans 8:1-4). Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is simply the fruit of love because salvation has already been provided through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:15; John 15:10-12; John 14:21; Matthew 22:26-40. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

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Faith without works is dead, agreed.

This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 13:8-10 and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments. and on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets.

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Certainly agree with the words of Christ.

It is ironic that you argue for the ten, but then note the two great commandments--from the old testament, but not the ten.

If you believe what I have shared with you is true. I do not understand why you stopped keeping God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) as it is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172 according to the scriptures if we break knowingly brake anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

Hope this is helpful

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I have already noted that it is not just the ten. Once we have the broad framework hammered out we can take up the question of the 4th commandment.

For now we have significant differences in our view of the law.

LoveGodsWord said:

Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 says [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

These are not new commandments as some teach but Jesus is quoting old testament scripture from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 that summarizes the 10 commandments and how we love God and our fellow man (see Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-3).

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It is not just the ten. The fact that He quoted two laws outside of the ten as the "greatest" means that they were part of the law to be considered the greatest among them.

All of the law is summarized by them, not just the ten.

Notice in Luke 10:25-28 Jesus when asked the question "what shall I do to inherit eternal life? This question was asked from the an expert in Mosaic law νομικός who was also quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. So the old testament scriptures of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were very well known as a summary of the 10 commandments which is also shown by Paul in Romans 13:8-10 where he quotes the last six commandments of the 10 commandments showing that this is how we love our fellow man and stating that loving our fellow man is summarizing those commandments in the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man. James does the same in James 2:8-12.

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Also Paul applied other commandments outside the ten, and so did Jesus, as detailed in my first response. James also referred to more than the ten.

We can see this once again in the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:16-19. Notice here that the same question is asked by the expert in Mosaic law by the rich young ruler? [16] Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? This is the same question asked by the expert in the Mosiac law in Luke 10:25-28 yet notice how Jesus answers the question slightly differently here and directly quotes the 10 commandments?

Love is not separate from God's law it is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. That is why Jesus says on these to great commandments of love hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. The first four commandments are our duty of love to God and the second six commandments are our duty of love to our neighbor.

Hope this is helpful.

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It is more than the ten. The two are not from the ten. They are part of the law other than the ten. So when Jesus was giving the two greatest commandments, He was not just considering the ten.

LoveGodsWord said:

No problem take your time as I need to go out for a while. May God bless you as you seek him through His Word. Talk more latter

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I responded to the two posts.

BobRyan said: ↑
Your point that at some level God is sovereign is not questioned.

tall73 said:

At some level? How about at every level? There is no level where God is not sovereign.

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God sovereignly decided that created beings including Angels and humans would have free will and so God's is not sovereignly choosing for Hitler to murder each time Hitler did so -- I am hoping we agree on that. Rather that was Hitler's own choice and as ruler in Germany at the time he had a lot of people under his command to carry that out.

But more than that - God's Word calls Satan "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4.
And also the "the ruler of this world" in John 14.

John 14:30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me,

Satan shows up in Job 1 to one of God's council meetings - representing Earth. When God asks where Satan comes from his answer is "from roaming the Earth"

No wonder in Luke 4 Satan makes the claim that he is running the kingdoms of the world - and that statement goes without challenge by Christ.

Luke 4: 5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory, for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I want. 7 Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

It is not until the Rev 11 - second coming event - at the seventh Trumpet that "the kingdoms of this world BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ"

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give You thanks, Lord God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign

Christ confirms that Satan's kingdom is here - on Earth in Matt 12

Matt 12:
22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Jesus, and He healed him so that the man who was unable to speak talked and could see. 23 And all the crowds were amazed and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25 And knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan is casting out Satan, he has become divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

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Christ said His kingdom is not of this world nor are Christians - though they are in the world.


John 18: 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Satan deceives the whole world -- the kingdom of the world is not yet Christ's -

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

BobRyan said: ↑
The problem in Matt 13 is that there is only one context identified so far where people are surprised that even one tare exists

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tall73 said:

Perhaps if I quote Ellen White you will remember that the earth didn't start in the time of the apostles.

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I think we both agree that I know that Earth started before the time of the Apostles.
I think we both agree that the disciples would be very surprised to find that Judas was a tare.

I think we both agree that Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5 show the leaders in the church having to decide on cases where tares in the church and what to do about it.

I think we both agree that even the non-SDA commentaries I quoted apply the wheat and tares scenario to church leaders having to make decisions.

And I think it is apparent that in Matt 13 - God is not "instructing Himself" not to incinerate the Earth before Christ has even died on the cross and the post-cross gospel message sent "into all the world and then shall the end come" Matt 24.

The problem of people getting saved and then lost - is addressed in Matt 13 with the parable of the sower and the different soils in the case of the rocky soil. A very real problem in the church that the Apostles would be leading out in.

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By contrast - the idea that planet Earth would have even one single tare on it at the time that Christ is giving this parable in Matt 13 - was not "news" to even one being in the entire universe (another point where you and I probably already agree)

tall73 said:

Until you prove that the kingdom of Christ is equivalent to the "church of Christ in the world" this is a non-starter.

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The parable says the kingdom of Christ has tares in it - Matt 13:14 - so it can be the visible church - the local congregation but cannot be the invisible church with no tares in it.

It also can't be the entire world since He says the world hates the church and hates Christ.

Christ says the church is in the world - but is not supposed to be of the world.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world - yet his church is in the world.

Matt 6:10 "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ON Earth AS IT already IS in Heaven"

God's will is not done on Earth AS IT IS in heaven - today. The sin and horrific crime that can be found on Earth today - is not being done in heaven.

On Earth "God is NOT willing that ANY should perish" 2 Peter 3 -- but they do.

Everyone admits this.


It is not until the Rev 11 - second coming event - at the seventh Trumpet that "the kingdoms of this world BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ"

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,
“We give You thanks, Lord God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign

BobRyan said:

Matt 7 there are only two groups - those on the wide road and those on the Narrow Road.
Matt 13 Tares-vs-wheat --- only two groups - wheat vs tares.

But some of those on the wide road were church members saying "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name" in Matt 7

And in Matt 13 the wheat and tares are both in Christ's kingdom - his church on Earth that is in the world but not of the world.

And some of those that are tares in Matt 13 are in the "kingdom of Christ" Matt 13:41 - the church of Christ in the world.

The problem in Matt 13 is that there is only one context identified so far where people are surprised that even one tare exists - and that is the context for the kingdom of Chris in the world - where His servants would be surprised that even one tare existed among the 12 - they would be surprised that Judas was a tare. And they are the ones leading out in teaching what Christ taught about church discipline in Matt 18 and in 1 Cor 5 in the case of the Apostle Paul leading the church in that regard.

It is only in the context of the church of Christ where we see that "surprise" to find that a tare is there.

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tall73 said:

They are two separate teachings, with another in between.

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The teaching of Christ in all - is applicable even though no one parable incorporates all situations nor is it intended to.

I was showing a pattern in the book of Matthew when we look at Matt 7 and Matt 13 where all mankind is the full scope at the end of the parable even though cases in it specifically point to the church as shown both in the wide-road vs narrow-road example and the wheat and tares "in Christ's kingdom" example where no one expected a tare.

tall73 said:

Christ says some say"Lord, Lord" but will not enter the kingdom--then that is a teaching, and we agree with it.

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True - the reason for bringing it up is that the wide-road vs narrow-road applies to all mankind where the good-trees and the narrow road line up as the saved but the statement about "prophesy in your name" is specifically church members.

tall73 said:

You don't take elements from the parable of the two paths and then read them back into other teachings if they are not stated.

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If you want to see the same pattern already established in Matt 7 and see that it shows up again in Matt 13 - it is helpful to "notice".

tall73 said:

This is the problem. You have not demonstrated that the "kingdom of Christ" is the "church of Christ in the world."

And of course, the Kingdom of Christ is everything. It is not limited to one part of the world.

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"My kingdom is not of this world" John 18 -- so it is not "the world".
Yet as Christ said His church is IN the World but not OF the World John 17

The world is at war with Christ and with Christ's church John 17

· John 17:14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
· John 17:15I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one.
· John 17:16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
· John 17:18Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world.

Not until Rev 11 - the 7th Trumpet (the second coming event) do we have "the kingdom of the WORLD has BECOME the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ"

Obviously the disciples at the time of Matt 13 did not expect "tares" to be among their ranks - not even expecting Judas to be a tare.

And obviously the disciples were going to lead out in promoting Christ's teaching in Matt 18 as they did in 1 Cor 5 - for separating tares from wheat in extreme cases and yet letting them stay together in other cases as in the unforgiving servant at the end of Matt 18.

BobRyan said: ↑
What is questioned is: where "else" you think there can be a being who was surprised to find a tare exists - other than the disciples surprised to find that one of their own was a tare.

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tall73 said:

The ones not on the earth,

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Beings not on earth at the time of the Matt 13 parable could not possibly be surprised to find that earth had a tare living on it.

Matt 13 is not a case of God informing beings not on earth about tares.

Matt 13 is not a case of God instructing Himself not to incinerate Earth before the Gospel gets promoted having the cross of Christ as a historic event (which had not even happened yet - as of Matt 13)

tall73 said:

The field is the world. God created the world and planted only wheat.

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Exegesis insists on the context of Matt 13 not of Genesis 1-3

But EVEN if you go back to Genesis 3 - the CHURCH is essentially Adam and Eve - who are true worshipers of God. And Satan turns one of the wheat into a tare - (Eve) and through her gets Adam to fall - now all the wheat in that initial church - are tares. And no one was expecting that church to have tares in it.

Same with Matt 13 church of the disciples day - they did not expect tares in the church.

tall73 said:

Once you start placing God's reign as only in some places, or only in some ways, you are totally off track. The parable never says that. And it certainly never says there are places where Christ's kingdom is not.

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So then this was the key part missing from the above.

BobRyan said:

"My kingdom is not of this world" John 18 -- so it is not "the world".
Yet as Christ said His church is IN the World but not OF the World John 17

The world is at war with Christ and with Christ's church John 17

· John 17:14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
· John 17:15I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one.
· John 17:16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
· John 17:18Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world.

Not until Rev 11 - the 7th Trumpet (the second coming event) do we have "the kingdom of the WORLD has BECOME the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ"

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BobRyan said:

BobRyan said: ↑

God sovereignly decided that created beings including Angels and humans would have free will and so God's is not sovereignly choosing for Hitler to murder each time Hitler did so -- I am hoping we agree on that. Rather that was Hitler's own choice and as ruler in Germany at the time he had a lot of people under his command to carry that out.

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If God allows Hitler to have a choice, then God is still Hitler's sovereign or he wouldn't have that choice. The same with Satan. And Satan does not have free choice in he conducts things, but only as God allows.

But more than that - God's Word calls Satan "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4.
And also the "the ruler of this world" in John 14.

John 14:30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me,

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Ie. the people of the world, not the people of God, follow him. That does not mean that Christ is not sovereign. That certainly doesn't mean that Satan is over Christ in any fashion, or that there is any part of the world that is not under the authority of Christ. Every knee will bow. However, in His patience He gives them time.

Now let's use an example from recent times. I am not using this to get into a political discussion. Donald Trump was elected. Many people said "not my president" Well, he was still their president, even if they didn't want him to be. The same is true here. God is still in charge of all things.

Satan shows up in Job 1 to one of God's council meetings - representing Earth. When God asks where Satan comes from his answer is "from roaming the Earth"

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And God tells Him what he can do and cannot do on that earth--so you tell me, is God in charge or is the evil one? If the evil one cannot do anything without God's permission, that is obvious.

No wonder in Luke 4 Satan makes the claim that he is running the kingdoms of the world - and that statement goes without challenge by Christ.

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The statement that needed challenging was the one where he wanted worship. And it was challenged. He could not worship the evil one because God is the one who deserves worship, and is above all things. If you can look at two statements, one where God says the earth is mine and the fullness thereof, and one where Satan says that all the kingdoms of the earth belong to him, and you do not recognize that God is the one telling the truth, then what are we even talking about?

It is not until the Rev 11 - second coming event - at the seventh Trumpet that "the kingdoms of this world BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ"

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This is referencing the kings of the earth, who are servants or ministers of the Lord per Romans 13. They exercise their authority only as He permits, just as Adam had authority only as God gave it. He is over the nations and judges them. He sets them up, and takes them down, and their hearts are like waters in the hands of the Lord. Moreover, this is talking about earthly rulers, not the evil one.

Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came

This is a reference to Psalm 2:

Psa 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

As His servants they were to serve Him. Now He has removed the disobedient servants, and exerts direct control.

Do you deny that they were His servants to start with per Romans 13, and that He judges the nations?

Christ confirms that Satan's kingdom is here - on Earth in Matt 12

Matt 12:
22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Jesus, and He healed him so that the man who was unable to speak talked and could see. 23 And all the crowds were amazed and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25 And knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan is casting out Satan, he has become divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

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And of course you completely miss the point that the demons have no power to resist the true King. They had to come out, because Satan's kingdom is under the sovereignty of Christ. He told them to be silent and they had to be silent. He told them to come out, and they had to come out. When He as much as approached they asked if He was here to torment them ahead of time. Who was in charge? If I start a rebellion, does that make me in charge? Of course not, it means I am rebelling and will soon be put down.

Mat 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Jesus bound satan and plundered his house. He is sovereign.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world nor are Christians - though they are in the world.

John 18: 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

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It is not OF this world because it is the kingdom of heaven.

I already showed you the text where Jesus said He was not of this world, but from above. His kingdom is not a mere earthly kingdom. And that is why He told Pilate that Pilate had no authority over Him at all unless it was given to Him. Because God reigns over the kingdoms of men. That is why Pilate was concerned when he found out Jesus was the Son of God, and tried to free him.

John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

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They are called out of the world system, to not be the same as the world How does that make Jesus not in charge of the world?

Moreover,

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name.

15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

Nothing could harm them due to the name of the Father. Not even the evil one. Why is that? Because He is sovereign.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Satan deceives the whole world -- the kingdom of the world is not yet Christ's

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Note that they are the sons of disobedience...to what? To God of course. Being a disloyal subject does not make you not a subject. In fact, Jesus in the chapter before was already declared sovereign:

Now read this and tell me that Satan was somehow not under Jesus' feet?

Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

He was already over all things, and every name that will be named in this age and the one to come.

Satan was never anything but a created being, that could be destroyed in a moment. God in mercy allowed things to play out until the harvest so that those deceived by him may repent.

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

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Hardly a victory lap. He was cast down to the earth because he had no power to resist God. And He will soon be destroyed from the earth as well.

tall73 said:

If God allows Hitler to have a choice, then God is still Hitler's sovereign or he wouldn't have that choice.

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God does not sovereignly choose to murder the people that Hitler murders in that case. God does not sovereignly choose to take God's own name in vain each time Hitler does it - in that case.

God is not the one whom Hitler serves in that case.

Satan is Hitler's master in that case according to God in Eph 2:1-4
Satan is Hitler's spiritual "father" in that case - according to John 8


John 8: 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I say the truth, you do not believe Me.

BobRyan said:

I think we both agree that I know that Earth started before the time of the Apostles.
I think we both agree that the disciples would be very surprised to find that Judas was a tare.

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I think you totally disregard when the earth started. Because there were not tares when it was made.

I think we both agree that Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5 show the leaders in the church having to decide on cases where tares in the church and what to do about it.

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Yes, and they were to put them out, the opposite of the instruction here according to your theory.

I think we both agree that even the non-SDA commentaries I quoted apply the wheat and tares scenario to church leaders having to make decisions.

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Oh, would you like to submit to non-SDA commentaries? I think we have a few issues to run by you then.

Nor are the commentaries unanimous.

And I think it is apparent that in Matt 13 - God is not "instructing Himself" not to incinerate the Earth before Christ has even died on the cross and the post-cross gospel message sent "into all the world and then shall the end come" Matt 24.

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I think the owner did not instruct Himself but informed His servants, who were not in the field, and were talking about it.

The problem of people getting saved and then lost - is addressed in Matt 13 with the parable of the sower and the different soils in the case of the rocky soil. A very real problem in the church that the Apostles would be leading out in.

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And in this parable the saved and lost are monolithic throughout, and the focus is the earth throughout, and you inserted what was not there.

By contrast - the idea that planet Earth would have even one single tare on it at the time that Christ is giving this parable in Matt 13 - was not "news" to even one being in the entire universe (another point where you and I probably already agree)

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Of course it was not news to them that there are unbelievers. The plan of what God was going to do with the tares was news to them. And they are not the servants, they are the wheat. They are not outside of the field, they are in it. So they are not the ones asking about it...nor confused about it, because Jesus is explaining His plan. Their instruction regarding the church is actually to put people out of it when they are unwilling to repent.

BobRyan said:

The parable says the kingdom of Christ has tares in it - Matt 13:14 - so it can be the visible church - the local congregation but cannot be the invisible church with no tares in it.

It also can't be the entire world since He says the world hates the church and hates Christ.

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So now anyone who hates Christ is not under His authority? How then does He judge the world? That is ridiculous. A soldier who doesn't like his commanding officer is not under his authority?

It says it plainly. The field is the world. In it are the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one. How could Christ even plant the field if it was not His?

Yet He says the field is the world.

And you already stipulated that at the end it is all the believers and all the non-believers. That cannot be unless it includes the whole world. Which it did throughout because the field is the world. And the wheat in the field was the wheat in the barn. So if it included all at the end, it includes all at the beginning.

Christ says the church is in the world - but is not supposed to be of the world.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world - yet his church is in the world.

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Christ said His kingdom is not of this world because just like Him, it is from above. He reigns over everything, not just the world. And if Christ had no authority in the world how did He plant the field--the world?

Of course He has authority and doesn't need Satan's permission or assent.