Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[LoveGodsWord]

Let's try again....

The field is the world.

In the world are believers and unbelievers, side by side.

Now not stated in the parable, but it is also true in the church there are believers and unbelievers side by side.

I think Ellen White would agree with those statements.

However, what she wrote was something different. She tried to tell us what Jesus meant when He said the world is something else--the church of God in the world.

He said the world. He meant the world.

If you want to talk about the implications for the church, fine. But the world is still the field. And true believers and true non-believers are side by side in the field (and in the church, but it is not stated in the parable).

No need to try again as we are just going around in circles at the moment so let's agree to disagree. I think everything has already been addressed in detail through the scriptures already and elsewhere. I thank you for the discussion I might pull out for now and let you talk to Bob as I have other things to do for the time being.

 

[tall73]

No need to try again as we are just going around in circles at the moment so let's agree to disagree. I think everything has already been addressed in detail through the scriptures already and elsewhere. I thank you for the discussion I might pull out for now and let you talk to Bob as I have other things to do for the time being.

Agreed, I have things to do as well. And now I think we both understand the position of the other, so I can agree to disagree.

God bless

 

[BobRyan]

What did Nebachadnezzar find about God ruling over the earth?

Nebuchadnezzar is a great example of someone who knew for dead sure that tares exists on Earth.

Your point that at some level God is sovereign is not questioned. What is questioned is where "else" you think there can be a being who was surprised to find a tare exists - other than the disciples surprised to find that one of their own was a tare.

You can post texts where we agree on the sovereignty of God some more if you wish - but it does not address the question that is missed in the option you have chosen.

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't say that the ones rejecting are all the ones on the wide way. It just says many will say...

Matt 7 there are only two groups - those on the wide road and those on the Narrow Road.
Matt 13 Tares-vs-wheat --- only two groups - wheat vs tares.

But some of those on the wide road were church members saying "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name" in Matt 7

And in Matt 13 the wheat and tares are both in Christ's kingdom - his church on Earth that is in the world but not of the world.

And some of those that are tares in Matt 13 are in the "kingdom of Christ" Matt 13:41 - the church of Christ in the world.

The problem in Matt 13 is that there is only one context identified so far where people are surprised that even one tare exists - and that is the context for the kingdom of Chris in the world - where His servants would be surprised that even one tare existed among the 12 - they would be surprised that Judas was a tare. And they are the ones leading out in teaching what Christ taught about church discipline in Matt 18 and in 1 Cor 5 in the case of the Apostle Paul leading the church in that regard.

It is only in the context of the church of Christ where we see that "surprise" to find that a tare is there.

 

[tall73]

Your point that at some level God is sovereign is not questioned.

At some level? How about at every level? There is no level where God is not sovereign.

Even Ellen White acknowledged that Christ was the true King:

The earth is God's, and He has committed all things to His Son. Adam was to reign subject to Christ. When Adam betrayed his sovereignty into Satan's hands, Christ still remained the rightful King. Desire of Ages Chapter 13.

 

[tall73]

What is questioned is where "else" you think there can be a being who was surprised to find a tare exists - other than the disciples surprised to find that one of their own was a tare.

The ones not on the earth, the field, per the parable. The humans were all identified as either tares or wheat.

And the first planting was not in the time of the disciples. Were there any tares in the world when God created Adam and Eve?

No. And they are in view even in your scenario because you think in the end it is all of the people, and in the beginning you change the focus because you don't want to accept that the field is the world.

The field is the world. God created the world and planted only wheat.

Satan plants tares.

Once you start placing God's reign as only in some places, or only in some ways, you are totally off track. The parable never says that. And it certainly never says there are places where Christ's kingdom is not.

If your view includes at the end all tares and all wheat then how would Christ seed in all parts of the world if you think part of it was not His? Are you now saying He had no right to plant seed outside of the visible church? That would completely change the parable again.

The whole earth is His. And the whole earth was the field.

 

[tall73]

Matt 7 there are only two groups - those on the wide road and those on the Narrow Road.
Matt 13 Tares-vs-wheat --- only two groups - those on the wide road and those on the Narrow road.

But some of those on the wide road were church members saying "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name"

They are two separate teachings, with another in between. Christ says some say"Lord, Lord" but will not enter the kingdom--then that is a teaching, and we agree with it.

If Jesus says there are two roads, and many take the wide and many take the narrow--then that is a teaching, and we agree with it.

You don't take elements from the parable of the two paths and then read them back into other teachings if they are not stated.

No one has disputed there are two roads, and everyone takes one or the other.

And no one has disputed that some who claim to follow Christ will not be in the kingdom.

But you have to explain the parable in Matthew 13 on its own, based on the information relayed there. And you are introducing things that are not stated.

And some of those that are tares in Matt 13 are in the "kingdom of Christ" Matt 13:41 - the church of Christ in the world.

This is the problem. You have not demonstrated that the "kingdom of Christ" is the "church of Christ in the world."

And of course, the Kingdom of Christ is everything. It is not limited to one part of the world. God is a King. His kingdom is all He has created and sustains. And that is all things.

 

[tall73]

the "kingdom of Christ" Matt 13:41 - the church of Christ in the world.

Until you prove that the kingdom of Christ is equivalent to the "church of Christ in the world" this is a non-starter.

And of course to limit Christ's kingdom is to deny Him as King over all things. Why would that even enter your mind?

 

[tall73]

The problem in Matt 13 is that there is only one context identified so far where people are surprised that even one tare exists

Perhaps if I quote Ellen White you will remember that the earth didn't start in the time of the apostles.

The news of man's fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow. All heaven was in agitation. A council was held to decide what must be done with the guilty pair. The angels feared that they would put forth the hand, and eat of the tree of life, and become immortal sinners. But God said that He would drive the transgressors from the garden. Early Writings, Spiritual Gifts, The Fall of Man

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Agreed, I have things to do as well. And now I think we both understand the position of the other, so I can agree to disagree. God bless

Well as posted already I think I knew your position from the start and have not changed mine at all in regards to Matthew 13 and the parable of the wheat and the tares but glad we can agree to disagree. What I would like to discuss with you at some point (if you do not mind me asking) is why do you now believe that God's seventh day Sabbath (4th commandments - Exodus 20:8-11) which as you know according to the scriptures is one of Gods 10 commencements that gives us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) when broken is to you now no longer a requirement for Christian living and a part of our duty of love to God *Matthew 22:36-40. If you would rather not discuss this please just let me know and say so if the topic is a bit of a sore one for you but if your happy to discuss it with me than that would be great. I am just curious as to why you had stopped as you know last time we talked I was under the impression you were still a Sabbath keeper.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well as posted already I think I knew your position from the start and have not changed mine at all in regards to Matthew 13 and the parable of the wheat and the tares but glad we can agree to disagree. What I would like to discuss with you at some point (if you do not mind me asking) is why do you now believe that God's seventh day Sabbath (4th commandments - Exodus 20:8-11) which as you know according to the scriptures is one of Gods 10 commencements that gives us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) when broken is to you now no longer a requirement for Christian living and a part of our duty of love to God *Matthew 22:36-40. If you would rather not discuss this please just let me know and say so if the topic is a bit of a sore one for you but if your happy to discuss it with me than that would be great. I am just curious as to why you had stopped as you know last time we talked I was under the impression you were still a Sabbath keeper.

Interestingly, most people who choose to attend church on Saturday are not biblical Sabbath keepers nor do they ascribe to all (or even most) of SDA doctrines.

 

[tall73]

is one of Gods 10 commencements that gives us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7)

Bob and I are already discussing the law in the thread. You are welcome to join in. But please read the previous posts. If you disagree you can note that.

The whole purpose for me of discussing the law is to review my thoughts on the subject in general, and the Sabbath in particular.

The conversation started here: Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

And continues off and on throughout the thread.

 

[tall73]

We, as a people, profess to have truth in advance of every other people upon the earth. Then our life and character should be in harmony with such a faith. The day is just upon us, when the righteous shall be bound, like precious grain, in bundles for the heavenly garner, while the wicked are, like the tares, gathered for the fires of the last great day. But “the wheat and tares grow together till the harvest.” In the discharge of life's duties, the righteous will, to the last, be brought in contact with the ungodly. The children of light are scattered among the children of darkness, that the contrast may be seen by all. Thus are the children of God to “show forth the praises of Him who hath called them out of darkness into his marvelous light.” The divine love glowing in the heart, the Christ-like harmony manifested in the life, will be as a glimpse of Heaven granted to men of the world that they may see and appreciate its excellence.

Testimony for the Church. — No. 31, Page 96 -- Ellen G. White Writings

“We hear the footsteps of an approaching God to punish the world for their iniquity.” “The end of time is close upon us. The world's inhabitants are being bound in bundles to be burned. Shall you be bound up with the tares?” “Do you realize that every year thousands and thousands and ten times ten thousand souls are perishing, dying in their sins? The plagues and judgments of God are already doing their work, and souls are going to ruin because the light of truth has not been flashed upon their pathway.”

The General Conference Bulletin
April 1, 1897


Here are examples of when Ellen White recognized that the wheat and tares are broader than the church.

And here she even applies it literally to corruption in the world:

Amalgamation Brought Noxious Plants—Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, “Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?” The Master answered, “An enemy hath done this.” All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares (Manuscript 65, 1899) [published in F. D. Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics]

 

[LoveGodsWord]

First, thank you for your testimony regarding your searching after God. I hope we are all searching for what the Lord wants, or there is little point in being here discussing.

As to this quote in Matthew 5, what law do you think He was referencing?

He refers to the commandments regarding murder and adultery. So the ten are certainly included. But his statements regarding the law continue with his "you have heard", "but I say" statements. What law do you think Jesus is indicating when He says that it will not pass away?

Hello Tall,

I spent some time on this for you to let you know my thoughts on Matthew 5 and application to God's law. I pray you may be patient and spend some time reading what I have provided here so you may not have any misunderstandings in regards to what I believe. I thought that perhaps your post here that you linked me to would be a good place for me to start so you might understand what I believe in regards to Matthew 5 and it's application to "Law".

Very simply for me I believe Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says; [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled is in application to all law.

That is Jesus fulfilled all the "shadow laws" of the old covenant that point to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17, all the laws in ordinances *Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15 which is δόγμα (dógma: G1378) meaning "civil, ceremonial of ecclesiastical laws" from the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1378 and includes all the "shadow laws" of things to come pointing to the body of Christ in Colossians 2:17 including all the ceremonial laws for remission of sins, as typified in the earthly Sanctuary and Levitical Priesthood and the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings etc. Therefore Jesus has not abolished the old covenant "shadow laws" that pointed to him as they are fulfilled and continued in Him under the new covenant based on better promises (Hebrews 8:1-6).

The application of Matthew 5:17 is also to obedience to all of God's 10 commandments Jesus perfectly fulfilled them so that he could become God's perfect lamb without spot or blemish to be offered for the sins of the world according to the old covenant laws in Leviticus 1:3; Deuteronomy 15:21; Leviticus 22:19-24; Hebrews 9:14; John 1:29; 36; 1 Peter 1:19 which is also God's will for His Church *Ephesians 5:27 which all were prophetic "shadow laws" pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant "shadow laws" for remission of sins and God's 10 commandments in order to become God's sacrifice for the sins of the world where we can see Gods' love for sinners of who I am Chief! Jesus is now our high Priest, God's sacrifice for the sins of the world ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man for the sins of the world.

Jesus does not stop here however. Matthew 5 is more than a declaration about Jesus coming to fulfill the laws in order to be the promised Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the word to everyone who would receive him *John 3:16.

In fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21 Jesus came to magnify the requirements of God's 10 commandments applying them to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:22-27 while stating earlier in Matthew 5:20 that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper than outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Genesis 6:5 which was the reason mankind was destroyed the first time in the flood *Genesis 6:7-13. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart Jesus says is what defile a man *Matthew15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28 or that we can have a form of Godliness but deny God's power to save us from our sins *2 Timothy 3:5. Jesus says that this topic is very important for us to understand in Matthew 9:12-13 if we expect to receive God's salvation in our own lives personally.

So who can be saved?

Jesus knows us that naturally we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. This is why we need to be born again in the Spirit by faith to love God and keep his commandments *1 John 3:6-9. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out to show us that we are all sinners *Romans 3:9-10 in need of a Savior but many do not know the meaning of these scriptures *Matthew 9:12-13. This is the new covenant promise of God’s salvation in those who believe his Word and why we need to be born again through faith *1 John 5:3-4 to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10; John 8:32-36; James 2:10-11; 1 John 2:3-4.

If we are not born again into God’s new covenant promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 24:13.

Righteousness comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's law and the very expression of what love is *Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know god for God is love * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Those who are born again do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:3 and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN *John 3:3-7 in to walk in the Spirit *Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16 under Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love we will not enter God’s Kingdom *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the inside out which is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5.

All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; Romans 3:19-20. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods’ Word and reject it according to the scriptures will not enter into God's kingdom because they reject the gift of God’s dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God’s grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Romans 6:23.

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments or the 613 in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

Love establishes God's law in those who believe and follow God's Word (Romans 8:1-4). Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is simply the fruit of love because salvation has already been provided through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:15; John 15:10-12; John 14:21; Matthew 22:26-40. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate love and law as obedience is the fruit of faith in God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed.

This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 13:8-10 and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments. and on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets.

If you believe what I have shared with you is true. I do not understand why you stopped keeping God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) as it is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172 according to the scriptures if we break knowingly brake anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

Hope this is helpful

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Agreed. And as you mentioned, He said the whole law hangs on the two great commandments, correct? So there are more commandments than just the Ten.

Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 says [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

These are not new commandments as some teach but Jesus is quoting old testament scripture from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 that summarizes the 10 commandments and how we love God and our fellow man (see Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-3).

Notice in Luke 10:25-28 Jesus when asked the question "what shall I do to inherit eternal life? This question was asked from the an expert in Mosaic law νομικός who was also quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. So the old testament scriptures of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were very well known as a summary of the 10 commandments which is also shown by Paul in Romans 13:8-10 where he quotes the last six commandments of the 10 commandments showing that this is how we love our fellow man and stating that loving our fellow man is summarizing those commandments in the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man. James does the same in James 2:8-12.

We can see this once again in the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:16-19. Notice here that the same question is asked by the expert in Mosaic law by the rich young ruler? [16] Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? This is the same question asked by the expert in the Mosiac law in Luke 10:25-28 yet notice how Jesus answers the question slightly differently here and directly quotes the 10 commandments?

Love is not separate from God's law it is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. That is why Jesus says on these to great commandments of love hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. The first four commandments are our duty of love to God and the second six commandments are our duty of love to our neighbor.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

There is no such thing as the 9 commandments or the 613 in God's WORD.

Since we are getting into a part of the conversation others were participating in before I went ahead and tagged them.

@BobRyan
@Danthemailman
@bbbbbbb
@imge
@Freth


Thank you for the thorough presentation. It gives us a lot to talk about going forward.

However, I would like clarification on what you mean by the 613. Usually that is a reference to the commandments given to Israel. And it is hard to imagine that they are not in God's word.

We touched on this earlier before you read the conversation. In Acts 21 the Jewish believers were keeping all the law. You indicated this was merely a transition period. However, that does not appear to be the case. This was years after the Acts council. They saw Jesus as the fulfillment. But continued to keep all of the law.

Moreover, many parts of the law for Israel indicated items that were a statute forever.

Circumcision
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.


Passover
Exo 12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.
Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.

Day of Atonement
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Tabernacles
Lev 23:39 “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.
Lev 23:40 And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths,
Lev 23:43 that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”

Now you say about Matthew 5:

Jesus does not stop here however. Matthew 5 is more than a declaration about Jesus coming to fulfill the laws in order to be the promised Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the word to everyone who would receive him *John 3:16.

In fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21 Jesus came to magnify the requirements of God's 10 commandments applying them to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:22-27 while stating earlier in Matthew 5:20 that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus does not just mention the 10 commandments in Matthew 5 with the "you have heard, but I say" formula. He goes on to talk about divorce, oaths, eye for an eye, etc. from the law. You refer to the 10 commandments, but there were other commandments in the law, and He is referring to all of them.

The law Jesus was talking about was the whole thing. In fact He said He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets--Scripture-but also said nothing would pass from the law. And then He discussed more laws than the ten commandments.

The Book of the law contained "moral", as well as "ceremonial" laws.

It talks about:

- Oaths
- Sexual sins (homosexuality, bestiality, incest, etc.)
- Responsibility and liability (if your animal gores someone, and you knew it had before, injuring someone in a fight, failing to cover a pit, animal grazing in neighbor's field)
- kidnapping
- self defense in a break-in
- no sorcery, necromancy, etc.
- not oppressing foreigners, orphans, widows, poor
-loans and interest
- respect for rulers
- Need to be proactively helpful (if you see your neighbor's animal wander away)
- bribes

Etc.

And some of these other laws are referenced in the NT, even for gentiles:

Paul in I Corinthians 5 still condemns incest. Romans 1, etc. he still condemns homosexuality. He even establishes that it is right to pay those who minister in the gospel by referencing the ox treading out the grain receives food, etc.

So saying it is only about 10 commandments is incorrect. The Jewish believers went on keeping all of the law.

Now Scripture indicates that the gentiles did not have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15). However, they clearly have moral principles to follow as there are many imperatives in the New Testament.

The Jewish believers went on keeping all the law.

So the question is what was required of the gentiles. Bob suggested that the "moral" law was required. The law never stated that one part was "moral" and the other was not. These are categories we have discerned. But it does make some sense as to the things reiterated in the New Testament for gentiles.

Gentiles ultimately fulfill the righteous requirements of the law by the Spirit, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since we are getting into a part of the conversation others were participating in before I went ahead and tagged them.

@BobRyan
@Danthemailman
@bbbbbbb
@imge
@Freth


Thank you for the thorough presentation. It gives us a lot to talk about going forward.

However, I would like clarification on what you mean by the 613. Usually that is a reference to the commandments given to Israel. And it is hard to imagine that they are not in God's word.

We touched on this earlier before you read the conversation. In Acts 21 the Jewish believers were keeping all the law. You indicated this was merely a transition period. However, that does not appear to be the case. This was years after the Acts council. They saw Jesus as the fulfillment. But continued to keep all of the law.

Moreover, many parts of the law for Israel indicated items that were a statute forever.

Circumcision
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.


Passover
Exo 12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.
Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.

Day of Atonement
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Tabernacles
Lev 23:39 “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.
Lev 23:40 And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths,
Lev 23:43 that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”

Now you say about Matthew 5:

Jesus does not stop here however. Matthew 5 is more than a declaration about Jesus coming to fulfill the laws in order to be the promised Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the word to everyone who would receive him *John 3:16.

In fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21 Jesus came to magnify the requirements of God's 10 commandments applying them to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:22-27 while stating earlier in Matthew 5:20 that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus does not just mention the 10 commandments in Matthew 5 with the "you have heard, but I say" formula. He goes on to talk about divorce, oaths, eye for an eye, etc. from the law. You refer to the 10 commandments, but there were other commandments in the law, and He is referring to all of them.

The law Jesus was talking about was the whole thing. In fact He said He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets--Scripture-but also said nothing would pass from the law. And then He discussed more laws than the ten commandments.

The Book of the law contained "moral", as well as "ceremonial" laws.

It talks about:

- Oaths
- Sexual sins (homosexuality, bestiality, incest, etc.)
- Responsibility and liability (if your animal gores someone, and you knew it had before, injuring someone in a fight, failing to cover a pit, animal grazing in neighbor's field)
- kidnapping
- self defense in a break-in
- no sorcery, necromancy, etc.
- not oppressing foreigners, orphans, widows, poor
-loans and interest
- respect for rulers
- Need to be proactively helpful (if you see your neighbor's animal wander away)
- bribes

Etc.

And some of these other laws are referenced in the NT, even for gentiles:

Paul in I Corinthians 5 still condemns incest. Romans 1, etc. he still condemns homosexuality. He even establishes that it is right to pay those who minister in the gospel by referencing the ox treading out the grain receives food, etc.

So saying it is only about 10 commandments is incorrect. The Jewish believers went on keeping all of the law.

Now Scripture indicates that the gentiles did not have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15). However, they clearly have moral principles to follow as there are many imperatives in the New Testament.

The Jewish believers went on keeping all the law.

So the question is what was required of the gentiles. Bob suggested that the "moral" law was required. The law never stated that one part was "moral" and the other was not. These are categories we have discerned. But it does make some sense as to the things reiterated in the New Testament for gentiles.

Gentiles ultimately fulfill the righteous requirements of the law by the Spirit, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law.

You have touched on one of my pet hobbyhorses, which is that of legalists who adamantly insist that everyone everywhere at all times is obligated to obey only ten commandments contained in the Law of Moses. The simple reality is that the Law consists of a much larger body of commandments than merely ten. In actual practice, these folks usually become quite insistent on obeying some of the other commandments (such as some of the sexual commandments) but certainly not all.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Since we are getting into a part of the conversation others were participating in before I went ahead and tagged them.

@BobRyan
@Danthemailman
@bbbbbbb
@imge
@Freth


Thank you for the thorough presentation. It gives us a lot to talk about going forward.

However, I would like clarification on what you mean by the 613. Usually that is a reference to the commandments given to Israel. And it is hard to imagine that they are not in God's word.

We touched on this earlier before you read the conversation. In Acts 21 the Jewish believers were keeping all the law. You indicated this was merely a transition period. However, that does not appear to be the case. This was years after the Acts council. They saw Jesus as the fulfillment. But continued to keep all of the law.

Moreover, many parts of the law for Israel indicated items that were a statute forever.

Circumcision
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Gen 17:12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
Gen 17:13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.


Passover
Exo 12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Exo 12:15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.
Exo 12:17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever.

Day of Atonement
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

Tabernacles
Lev 23:39 “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.
Lev 23:40 And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths,
Lev 23:43 that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.”

Now you say about Matthew 5:

Jesus does not stop here however. Matthew 5 is more than a declaration about Jesus coming to fulfill the laws in order to be the promised Messiah and God's sacrifice for the sins of the word to everyone who would receive him *John 3:16.

In fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 42:21 Jesus came to magnify the requirements of God's 10 commandments applying them to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:22-27 while stating earlier in Matthew 5:20 that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees we will in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus does not just mention the 10 commandments in Matthew 5 with the "you have heard, but I say" formula. He goes on to talk about divorce, oaths, eye for an eye, etc. from the law. You refer to the 10 commandments, but there were other commandments in the law, and He is referring to all of them.

The law Jesus was talking about was the whole thing. In fact He said He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets--Scripture-but also said nothing would pass from the law. And then He discussed more laws than the ten commandments.

The Book of the law contained "moral", as well as "ceremonial" laws.

It talks about:

- Oaths
- Sexual sins (homosexuality, bestiality, incest, etc.)
- Responsibility and liability (if your animal gores someone, and you knew it had before, injuring someone in a fight, failing to cover a pit, animal grazing in neighbor's field)
- kidnapping
- self defense in a break-in
- no sorcery, necromancy, etc.
- not oppressing foreigners, orphans, widows, poor
-loans and interest
- respect for rulers
- Need to be proactively helpful (if you see your neighbor's animal wander away)
- bribes

Etc.

And some of these other laws are referenced in the NT, even for gentiles:

Paul in I Corinthians 5 still condemns incest. Romans 1, etc. he still condemns homosexuality. He even establishes that it is right to pay those who minister in the gospel by referencing the ox treading out the grain receives food, etc.

So saying it is only about 10 commandments is incorrect. The Jewish believers went on keeping all of the law.

Now Scripture indicates that the gentiles did not have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (Acts 15). However, they clearly have moral principles to follow as there are many imperatives in the New Testament.

The Jewish believers went on keeping all the law.

So the question is what was required of the gentiles. Bob suggested that the "moral" law was required. The law never stated that one part was "moral" and the other was not. These are categories we have discerned. But it does make some sense as to the things reiterated in the New Testament for gentiles.

Gentiles ultimately fulfill the righteous requirements of the law by the Spirit, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law.

I am happy to go through everything provided in this post and discuss each one separately as we have time. Can we start with the first two posts I have provided here if you do not mind? I would like to know your thoughts on what I have shared with you so far if that is ok before proceeding into other topics. My reference to 9 commandments is to those who think there is is now only 9 commandments in the new covenant not 10 commandments as stated from Exodus 20:3-17 and the reference to 613 is to the old covenant laws that are fulfilled and continued in the new covenant in Jesus based on better promises. I also welcome all the participants you have invited. In fact I am still waiting for a response from @Danthemailman to all the posts I have sent him in response to what he posted earlier in this thread. So if we could now start with the first two posts I have provided that would be great. I only provided two posts so that we might understand where we are both coming from so there is no misunderstandings on what we believe before we start. Please also keep in mind no one fulfills the righteous requirements of the law by breaking the law and neither do they have God's Spirit according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 3:19.

Hope this is helpful

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have touched on one of my pet hobbyhorses, which is that of legalists who adamantly insist that everyone everywhere at all times is obligated to obey only ten commandments contained in the Law of Moses. The simple reality is that the Law consists of a much larger body of commandments than merely ten. In actual practice, these folks usually become quite insistent on obeying some of the other commandments (such as some of the sexual commandments) but certainly not all.

Let's get something straight here before proceeding so there is no misunderstandings between anyone here. A legalist is one who seeks their salvation from the law outside of Christ. For me personally I have never met anyone that believes this here in this thread. So there are no legalists here. Let me show from the scriptures what it is exactly that I believe so there is no misunderstandings here before we start. I believer that we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 So now that you know what it is I believe what does legalism have to do with what I have shared here with you? - Nothing.

 

[tall73]

I am happy to go through everything provided in this post and discuss each one separately as we have time. Can we start with the first two posts I have provided here if you do not mind? I would like to know your thoughts on what I have shared with you so far if that is ok before proceeding into other topics. My reference to 9 commandments is to those who think there is is now only 9 commandments in the new covenant not 10 commandments as stated from Exodus 20:3-17 and the reference to 613 is to the old covenant laws that are fulfilled and continued in the new covenant in Jesus based on better promises. I also welcome all the participants you have invited. In fact I am still waiting for a response from @Danthemailman to all the posts I have sent him in response to what he posted earlier in this thread. So if we could now start with the first two posts I have provided that would be great. I only provided two posts so that we might understand where we are both coming from so there is no misunderstandings on what we believe before we start. Please also keep in mind no one fulfills the righteous requirements of the law by breaking the law and neither do they have God's Spirit according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4; Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 3:19.

Hope this is helpful

I can't limit what folks post. Let's take the conversation as a whole now that numerous folks have posted their position. Now that we have your view and you have read some of my position I think we can start focusing on differences.

This is a major difference that impacts the rest of the discussion for me. However, I also can't control what you post. So answer if you wish.