When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

I lean toward pre-tribulation, and I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is key concerning the restrainer that must be taken out of the way before AC can be revealed.

ewq1938 said:

Mainly looking for votes in the poll to see how popular each position is. Voting is anonymous so please vote.

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The rapture takes place at His coming, just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15



The other main thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist by the Lord Himself.



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

Rachel20 said:

I lean toward pre-tribulation, and I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is key concerning the restrainer that must be taken out of the way before AC can be revealed.

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2 Thessalonians 2 is a major key to understanding when the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the antichrist will take place.


So is 1 Thessalonians.


The three main things that occur at His coming are (in order):

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
   
   
2. The rapture
   
   
3. The destruction of the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8






JLB

JLB777 said:

So is 1 Thessalonians.

The three main things that occur at His coming are (in order):

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
   
   
2. The rapture
   
   
3. The destruction of the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
JLB

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Do you believe Paul wrote both letters? How do you reconcile the fact he believed in imminency yet gives a list of events that must occur first before the Lord's return? Either Paul didn't write the second letter (as some, like Dr Ehrman, conclude), or the second letter is addressing both the rapture and the return as two separate events with only the last having prerequisite signs that must occur first. Notice the restrainer being removed isn't given any prerequisites.

No trib (7 year political intrigue centering on Israel) not in the poll.

Rachel20 said:

I lean toward pre-tribulation, and I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is key concerning the restrainer that must be taken out of the way before AC can be revealed.

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Interesting, I'm Pre-Wrath because of 2nd Thessalonians 2

3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes (first), and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

I read as Vs1 can't happen until the rebellion/falling away and the Ac's revealing happen first

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) together to him

friend of said:

Pretrib all the way baby. God isn't going to let His bride experience abuse by the AC. Come on man!

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Are there any believers in your supposed Pretrib tribulation?

Noah and his family had to keep their faith for a hundred years and build an ark to be saved from the flood. Israel was protected by faith through the plagues of Egypt. Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years, through adversity, until their character was perfected to receive the promised land.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

I voted post-tribulation.

Happy Sabbath!

Berean Tim said:

Interesting, I'm Pre-Wrath because of 2nd Thessalonians 2

3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes (first), and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

I read as Vs1 can't happen until the rebellion/falling away and the Ac's revealing happen first

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) together to him

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Both are certainly possible, and both interpretations require an understanding that the "day of the Lord" (the rendering of most translations) is an extended period consisting of multiple events, not a single simultaneous one*. For example, in Jewish tradition, it's the day when the Lord intervenes, destroys their enemies, and establishes his kingdom on earth. For many, it includes the time of Jacob's trouble leading up to that intervention, as well as the millennial kingdom reign that follows it. So Paul could reference the day of Christ and our gathering to him (rapture) without requiring there be no time gap between them. The one could have events that must occur first, while the other could be imminent ... especially if the other is the one that kicks off the day, as the removal of the restrainer seems to do in this letter. Which makes the identity of the restrainer important - something the Thessalonians only came to know through this letter based on v6 ("now you know what is restraining"). Is Paul basically saying that day hasn't arrived because you're still here ?! So I believe the restrainer is the Spirit-indwelt church. When the "fulness of the gentiles" comes in (Romans 11:25), this church is removed (the rapture), and Daniel's 70th week begins ( Daniel 9:24)

*I believe it's actually required if Paul both believed in imminency and wrote the 2nd letter. We also have precedence in scripture for the presence of the righteous being a restraint of destruction (the angels who couldn't destroy S&G until Lot was removed, or the flood that couldn't begin until Noah was in the Ark and the doors closed - both given as examples for the sudden destruction of the last days by Christ.)

ewq1938 said:

That's not a valid option because Paul uses the Greek word for rapture, harpazo. The only thing left is to decide when it happens.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up(Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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Yet there is no mention of a 7 year tribulation in Thessalonians. So the pairing of the two events does not sit well with some Christians. Can't choose from the list.

JLB777 said:

2 Thessalonians 2 is a major key to understanding when the resurrection, rapture and destruction of the antichrist will take place.


So is 1 Thessalonians.


The three main things that occur at His coming are (in order):

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
   
   
2. The rapture
   
   
3. The destruction of the antichrist

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8






JLB

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1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib. All it proves is that there is a catching away of the saints when Jesus comes. We both agree that there is a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4. That is not the issue. But you force a 7-years trib into it and a 3rd coming that does not exist in the text.

So:

There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

What we do have in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

Let's read all the Bible passages that talk about the end of time and where we'll be.

Mt 13:24 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Then in verse 36 Jesus explains the parable: “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.“

There will be one harvest only; nobody will be harvested before the very end.

Same in the parable of the dragnet in Mt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.“

No fish will be separated before the end of age. No rapture before Jesus returns.

In Mt 16:27-28 Jesus says: „For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Every man according to his deeds! Jesus will come with his angels once only and then everyone will be judged, the good and the evil at the same time.

Then in Mt 24:9-14: „Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Only the ones who ENDURE TO THE END, who go THROUGH the tribulation, will be saved. Jesus tells us to preach it to the very end. Stop teaching things God never said! Teach the truth! We have to endure TO THE END!

The next one is Mt 24:27-31: „For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.“

All the nations, all the people, everyone will see it when Jesus comes back. And then it’s over. Jesus‘ return is not the beginning of the tribulation for people left behind, no, Jesus‘ coming is the last act in human history and the end of this planet.

Now let’s move on to Mark 13:19-20: „For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.“

The elected ones have to go through the tribulation. It’s in the Bible, just READ it.

In 1 Cor 10:11 we read: „Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.“
We will be here for the end of ages.

1 Cor 15:51-52: „We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.“
There’s only one time of change, and that’s at the very end, when the dead will be raised and everyone will be judged.

Read very carefully 1 Thess 4:16-17: „For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.“
Do you believe that the dead will rise and nobody of the „left behind“ will notice? Because they will rise before you get „raptured“.

2 Thess 1:7 „… and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire…“
That’s not gonna be some „hidden process“. When Jesus comes back it will be visible to every human being.

Instead of screaming "Jesus would never let his bride suffer!" you should read 1 Peter 4:13 „But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.“ Be happy that you have to go through the tribulation and stop trying to escape it!

Also in 2 Peter 3:10-12 „But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!“

There is no „inconspicious disappearing“ for us, when Jesus comes it will be LOUD!

James tells us: „Therefore be patient until the coming of the Lord.“ and „As an example of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.“ (James 5:7 and 10).

Very clear is Rev 1:7 „Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.“
Everyone will see him when he comes, not just you.

„These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb“ – Rev 7:14.
We have to go through the tribulation, there is no way around it.

Let me finish with Rev 22:7 where it says „And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book“.
The prophecy is not „yay, we will all go to heaven before the tribulation comes“, the prophecy is all the verses above who tell us that we need to endure to the end, until Jesus comes back visibly for all nations. Goodbye tribulation, hello our saviour!

ewq1938 said:

Mainly looking for votes in the poll to see how popular each position is. Voting is anonymous so please vote.

Click to expand...

I don't really buy into the rapture theory, world wide it's the minority opinion by very respectful margins. However, if it happens, I think it will be after a "period" of very tough times, probably not a seven year period of tribulation as some people preach...this to is a minority opinion by respectful margins as well.

Berean Tim said:

It wasn't offered but, I'm Pre-Wrath. Post-Trib but before the wrath of God. Short version is the rapture is during/after the 6th Seal before the 7th Seal opens the Trumpets

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Where is this "Rapture" of which you speak? I can't find it anywhere in the Scriptures.

Light of the East said:

Where is this "Rapture" of which you speak? I can't find it anywhere in the Scriptures.

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Matthew 24:29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation6:12When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

The results of the 6th Seal

Revelation 79After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.

I hope you didn't mean you can't find the word "rapture". Rapture is a Latin word used as a translation for "harpazo" (caught up) in 1st Thessalonians 4
Paul also uses "gather" inn 2nd Thessalonians 2, as Jesus did in Matthew 24

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

Let's read all the Bible passages that talk about the end of time and where we'll be.

Mt 13:24 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Then in verse 36 Jesus explains the parable: “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.“

There will be one harvest only; nobody will be harvested before the very end.

Same in the parable of the dragnet in Mt 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.“

No fish will be separated before the end of age. No rapture before Jesus returns.

In Mt 16:27-28 Jesus says: „For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Every man according to his deeds! Jesus will come with his angels once only and then everyone will be judged, the good and the evil at the same time.

Then in Mt 24:9-14: „Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Only the ones who ENDURE TO THE END, who go THROUGH the tribulation, will be saved. Jesus tells us to preach it to the very end. Stop teaching things God never said! Teach the truth! We have to endure TO THE END!

The next one is Mt 24:27-31: „For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.“

All the nations, all the people, everyone will see it when Jesus comes back. And then it’s over. Jesus‘ return is not the beginning of the tribulation for people left behind, no, Jesus‘ coming is the last act in human history and the end of this planet.

Now let’s move on to Mark 13:19-20: „For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.“

The elected ones have to go through the tribulation. It’s in the Bible, just READ it.

In 1 Cor 10:11 we read: „Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.“
We will be here for the end of ages.

1 Cor 15:51-52: „We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.“
There’s only one time of change, and that’s at the very end, when the dead will be raised and everyone will be judged.

Read very carefully 1 Thess 4:16-17: „For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.“
Do you believe that the dead will rise and nobody of the „left behind“ will notice? Because they will rise before you get „raptured“.

2 Thess 1:7 „… and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire…“
That’s not gonna be some „hidden process“. When Jesus comes back it will be visible to every human being.

Instead of screaming "Jesus would never let his bride suffer!" you should read 1 Peter 4:13 „But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.“ Be happy that you have to go through the tribulation and stop trying to escape it!

Also in 2 Peter 3:10-12 „But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!“

There is no „inconspicious disappearing“ for us, when Jesus comes it will be LOUD!

James tells us: „Therefore be patient until the coming of the Lord.“ and „As an example of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.“ (James 5:7 and 10).

Very clear is Rev 1:7 „Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.“
Everyone will see him when he comes, not just you.

„These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb“ – Rev 7:14.
We have to go through the tribulation, there is no way around it.

Let me finish with Rev 22:7 where it says „And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book“.
The prophecy is not „yay, we will all go to heaven before the tribulation comes“, the prophecy is all the verses above who tell us that we need to endure to the end, until Jesus comes back visibly for all nations. Goodbye tribulation, hello our saviour!

Click to expand...

Except you missed one small detail. The Gospel of Matthew has nothing to do with the end of the world. It is the "Jewish Gospel" That is, it is written about the Jews, for the Jews, and to the Jews. It begins with the geneology of Jesus, proving that He is David's Son. That is profoundly important to those who are looking for Messiah. To a Gentile......meeaaaaah.....boring.

All through Matthew's Gospel, Jesus presents Himself as the Messiah. After repeated rebuffs by the Jewish hierarchy, the tone of the message turns to warnings about the coming destruction in AD 70 when Jerusalem will be destroyed and the age come to an end. Matthew 23-25 is the real meat of this prophecy. Matthew 24 has absolutely nothing to do with some future "Rapture" or the future end of the world. It is all about the destruction of Jerusalem

When Christ returned in AD 70, He sat as Judge and thus began the Day of Judgment. All the dead were brought before Him, and all who die from that point on immediately go into His presence where the truth of His being judges our sinful souls. There is one judgment spoken of in Scripture, not two or three or a dozen --- ONE. And it began in AD 70 and continues to this day.

There is no "Great Tribulation." That was spoken to the Jews about the destruction of Jerusalem.
There is no Great White Throne Judgement. I've looked all over the place for a separate judgment called the Great White Throne. Ain't there. There is just the one Judgment Seat which is described as a White Throne. Jesus sits as Judge in Matthew 25 and Revelation also speaks about the same event.

Light of the East said:

Except you missed one small detail. The Gospel of Matthew has nothing to do with the end of the world. It is the "Jewish Gospel" That is, it is written about the Jews, for the Jews, and to the Jews. It begins with the geneology of Jesus, proving that He is David's Son. That is profoundly important to those who are looking for Messiah. To a Gentile......meeaaaaah.....boring.

All through Matthew's Gospel, Jesus presents Himself as the Messiah. After repeated rebuffs by the Jewish hierarchy, the tone of the message turns to warnings about the coming destruction in AD 70 when Jerusalem will be destroyed and the age come to an end. Matthew 23-25 is the real meat of this prophecy. Matthew 24 has absolutely nothing to do with some future "Rapture" or the future end of the world. It is all about the destruction of Jerusalem

When Christ returned in AD 70, He sat as Judge and thus began the Day of Judgment. All the dead were brought before Him, and all who die from that point on immediately go into His presence where the truth of His being judges our sinful souls. There is one judgment spoken of in Scripture, not two or three or a dozen --- ONE. And it began in AD 70 and continues to this day.

There is no "Great Tribulation." That was spoken to the Jews about the destruction of Jerusalem.
There is no Great White Throne Judgement. I've looked all over the place for a separate judgment called the Great White Throne. Ain't there. There is just the one Judgment Seat which is described as a White Throne. Jesus sits as Judge in Matthew 25 and Revelation also speaks about the same event.

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"When Christ returned in 70AD" ? The entire church missed it.

Matthew 24: 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in 70AD ? Nobody recorded this !!

I'm very aware of the Preterist view point and I reject it. You should try to confuse others, I'm not buying

Rachel20 said:

I lean toward pre-tribulation, and I think 2 Thessalonians 2 is key concerning the restrainer that must be taken out of the way before AC can be revealed.

Click to expand...

Can you provide one Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Freth said:

Noah and his family had to keep their faith for a hundred years and build an ark to be saved from the flood. Israel was protected by faith through the plagues of Egypt. Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years, through adversity, until their character was perfected to receive the promised land.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

I voted post-tribulation.

Happy Sabbath!

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The church has been faithful for 1991 years even when persecuted for accepting a soon return.

The Rapture happens at the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. Post the church age, 1991 years of great tribulation. The church age stops when the church leaves. It does not carry on waiting for an earthly temple to be destroyed. It does not hang out in Egypt after the grand Exodus. It does not even have to build an ark. The Atonement happened before the foundation of the world.

The rest of you can choose to wait out while Jesus removes the sheep and goats. You all can gamble on being removed from Lamb's book of life or being beheaded. (Only those beheaded will be resurrected per Revelation 20:4. No rapture mentioned at all after Armageddon) Pretty sure the mark is unavoidable by the time those 7 vials of God's Wrath are poured out. Even the two witnesses are laying dead without breath in their bodies. I think at that point, looking up at the white horse symbolically coming in the clouds, one would wish it was a dream and could wake up in time before the 6th Seal and the Second Coming.

QUOTE="Berean Tim

"When Christ returned in 70AD" ? The entire church missed it.

Apparently they did, as they did not think as Jews in the First Century understanding Jewish Apocalyptic Language which is woven throughout the text of Matthew 24. I would say that part of the problem was that Greeks and Latins couldn't think like Jews, therefore, when the read the text, they put a futuristic viewpont on it. In addition, the Latin Church has absolutely MANGLED the translation of the Greek in many places in the Scriptures. A good example is found in Matthew 24: 3 where the disciples ask when the end of the age (aion) is going to take place. Latin translators made that word into "world" and thus put a futuristic thrust upon it.

Matthew 24: 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in 70AD ? Nobody recorded this !!

This is Jewish language. Go back to the Old Testament to understand it. A Jew in the first century would have understood what a "cloud coming" meant -- Judgment for wickedness.

Isa 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

So God came riding upon a cloud, eh? What was He using - an English saddle or an American Cowboy saddle? Look, you have to compare Scripture with Scripture to understand properly. OT Scriptures speak of God coming upon clouds in judgment. The Jews of Christ's day would have immediately recognized this language and been appalled that judgment was heading their way again.

I'm very aware of the Preterist view point and I reject it. You should try to confuse others, I'm not buying

I understand. It took me a while to drop my Anabaptist Rapturist leanings and actually accept what Scripture is saying. It's hard. Open your mind and give yourself time to think it through.