Why do people even want to put evolution in the equation?

KomatiiteBIF said:

I think this is partially true, as a theistic evolutionist, in the sense that I trust in what I see (my senses), more than I trust in any man's interpretation of scripture (including my own) that talks about what I see.

Because ultimately even the authority of scripture, has to first be experienced through my senses (I have to use my eyes to read scripture or my ears to be hear and to be taught it).

I trust in things like my direct first-hand observation of what I consider creation, to a greater extent than I trust in any second-hand human interpretation of any writing about creation (including my own interpretation of scripture).

And if that is a sin, then I am guilty.

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If you are simply going to trust your senses, then have you ever seen all life arise from non-life by random processes? Have you ever seen a dog give birth to a horse? Have you ever seen a lizard lay an egg that produced a bird?

What first hand observations have you made that would be called creation?

The Barbarian said:

Rather, the 4th century. St. Augustine of Hippo showed that the text itself ruled out the "days" of Genesis being literal days.

YE creationism is the result of men putting too much confidence in their own understanding, and adding new ideas to Genesis.

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What did Augustine see in the text that neither Moses, the prophets, Jesus, or the Apostles saw to suggest that the days of creation were anything but literal days?

The Barbarian said:

That would be rather foolish. No one with any sense supposes that evolutionary theory is about the way life began. Darwin himself supposed that God just created the first living things.

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If no one supposes that evolutionary theory is about the way life came to be, then what is it supposed to be about? Every atheist and agnostic whom I have come across credits evolution, by way of random processes taking place over an immense amount of time, for bringing all life into being.

The Barbarian said:

That's an error, too. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats and lives on physically for many years. The death was a spiritual one, assuming that God is truthful.

If Jesus came to save us from a physical death, He failed. We will all die physically someday. That wasn't why He came and died for us.

Creationists, whether they realize this or not, appear to be making the God who inspired scripture out to be a liar.

Let God be God, and let Him decide what is wasteful or faulty, rather than depending on your own judgement to determine what is right in your eyes.

It seems that creationists are simply attempting to mold God according to an image that suits them and founded upon their man-made doctrines of creationism.

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The scripture says that Adam was cut-off from the tree of life which would have kept him from dying a physical death. (Gen. 3:22) He did die eventually, but if he hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit, he never would have died at all because he would still have had access to the tree of life.

That Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation is without dispute, but if our bodies are not to be redeemed from the bondage of physical death, then why is it written that our bodies are destined to be liberated from physical death and to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible? Why then should our bodies be raised up just as that of our Lord was raised up? (1 Cor. 15:51-55, 1 Thess. 4:13-18)

And no, Creationists are not attempting to mold God according to anything that suits them. They are simply abiding by what God has already told us in the scriptures and within the context thereof; no more no less.

It is those who refuse to abide within the confines of scripture who are attempting to mold God into an image that suits them best.

Contenders Edge said:

What did Augustine see in the text that neither Moses, the prophets, Jesus, or the Apostles saw to suggest that the days of creation were anything but literal days?

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Since not one of those people said that they were literal days, I'm thinking the question is sort of self-answering.

Contenders Edge said:

If no one supposes that evolutionary theory is about the way life came to be, then what is it supposed to be about?

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That's the rub. People who think they hate it, don't know what it is. Just to clarify, what else, besides the origin of life, did you think it was about?

Contenders Edge said:

Every atheist and agnostic whom I have come across credits evolution, by way of random processes taking place over an immense amount of time, for bringing all life into being.

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Another good example of what I was talking about. Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't random. Would you be willing to go and find out what it is about, and then come back and tell us about it?

Contenders Edge said:

The scripture says that Adam was cut-off from the tree of life which would have kept him from dying a physical death.

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No. God acknowledges that Adam is not immortal, and expresses concern that he might become so:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Contenders Edge said:

That Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation is without dispute, but if our bodies are not to be redeemed from the bondage of physical death, then why is it written that our bodies are destined to be liberated from physical death and to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible?

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Because it's not a physical death Jesus' death and Resurrection saved us from. All of us will die physically one day. Our bodies will decay and return to the earth. But we will be raised up and we will have new incorruptible bodies.

Contenders Edge said:

And no, Creationists are not attempting to mold God according to anything that suits them.

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All these new man-made doctrines they have thought up, sure make it seem that way.

Contenders Edge said:

It is those who refuse to abide within the confines of scripture who are attempting to mold God into an image that suits them best.

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Which as we have just discussed, is what creationists are doing.

Contenders Edge said:

If you are simply going to trust your senses, then have you ever seen all life arise from non-life by random processes? Have you ever seen a dog give birth to a horse? Have you ever seen a lizard lay an egg that produced a bird?

What first hand observations have you made that would be called creation?

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Why no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?

If you had T-Rex's running loose? Why do we only read about lions and bears and cobras?

Because? God had created other worlds before this one!

Before Darwin was even born, Bible scholars were finding this to be evident. But, they did not know what to make of it. When Darwinism walked on stage the works of these previous scholars became re-discovered. Often times, suppressed and lied about by servants of their religious flesh, not the Spirit.

The alleged "Gap theory" was not a new invention made up to counter evolutionists as young earth creationists attempt to get us to believe. The Bible has always been showing that we are not the first creation created by God on this planet. Ignorance and emotionalism are the enemy of securing knowledge of the Truth needed to make us free from the lies of the world.

Here... see for yourself.


Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

Part ll


Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

There was a real Gap between creations! Its not a theory!

Many years before Darwin was born, Bible scholars were clearly seeing that an unknown prehistoric world had been judged and devastated. Its why Jeremiah used Genesis 1:2 to prophesy a warning to the evil Jews. A warning that Genesis 1:2 was about to happen to them!

This is what Jeremiah threatened the evil Jews with concerning God's judgment of them... (its Gen 1:2)





Genesis 1:2 does not mean simply... "without form and void." Not to the Hebrew reader who understood what words meant at the time of Moses. It meant destruction and devastation.

Its silly how the evolution vs young earth debate keeps dragging on, and on, and on. Ignorance keeps people buying tickets to a fight where no one can win.

coffee4u said:

Still showing the video showing the fraudulent drawings of human embryos, are you?
Not the lest big embarrassed to use well known lies to try and make a point? Even your evolutionary friends agree it is fraudulent.

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Well, let's look at photographs, instead:

All that stuff in in the photographs too. How about that?

Contenders Edge said:

If you are simply going to trust your senses, then have you ever seen all life arise from non-life by random processes? Have you ever seen a dog give birth to a horse? Have you ever seen a lizard lay an egg that produced a bird?

What first hand observations have you made that would be called creation?

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Much of my support for the theory of evolution doesn't relate to abiogenesis during the precambrian or hadean. Much of my support for the theory relates to post-proterozoic times, which are ultimately what is described in the video I posted above. I'll share it again:


And actually, some chickens have been observed to be born with reptilian teeth.

But anyhow, personally, I've looked at a lot of rocks. Looking at rocks is really just what I do as a geologist. I've looked at rocks of the precambrian, Cambrian, ordovician, silurian, Devonian, carboniferous, permian, rocks throughout the mesozoic, that's triassic, jurassic and cretaceous, and I've looked at plenty of rocks of the cenozoic as well.

And in those rocks, of course there are fossils.

And I will say, of the rocks I have seen, which are quantitatively far more than the average person, and of the fossils I've seen, which also are also far more than the average person, in not one formation, have I found even 1 single fossil, of the hundreds, if not thousands ive seen and found, not 1 fossil, not a single one, has fallen outside of the evolutionary phylogeny observed in other fields of study such as in genetics or homology.

Such things just don't exist. The proverbial Cambrian bunny, just doesn't exist.

And that tells me that common descent is...For practically purposes, it is a certainty.

Assuming that as some say, satan hasn't put bones in the ground in their order, there is no other feasible conclusion, but evolution. In my opinion.

And there isn't really anything interpretive about this, but rather it's just the way the world is. Just as clouds are made of water vapor or just as the sun is hot. Some things just are what they are. And no interpretation can change that.

KomatiiteBIF said:

And actually, some chickens have been observed to be born with reptilian teeth.

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Chickens still have the genes for reptilian teeth. But another gene suppresses them. And yes, you can mess with chicken embryos to inactivate the suppressor.

The finding made scientists curious whether healthy chickens still possessed the 80-million-year-old genetic pathway for producing teeth.

By making a few changes to the expression of certain molecules in the pathway, the researchers were able to induce tooth growth in normal developing chickens. These teeth also looked like reptilian teeth and shared many of the same genetic traits, supporting the scientists' hypothesis. None of these chickens were allowed to hatch.
Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth | Live Science

Keep in mind that the Lord created Lucifer to be a light bearing angel.

And, only some angels (not all) were called "morning stars." The rest were called "sons of God." (Job 38:6-7)

Lucifer with his light bearing abilities was said to have brought in the morning. (Isaiah 14:12)

Reading Genesis chapter one we see light of day appearing for three days, but there was no sun until the fourth day. Why? The Lord Himself provided that light. What does that reveal as a clue for us?

In the previous prehistoric worlds angels had a direct function and part of the ecological system. Lucifer heralded in the morning light, as the Lord sustained the rest of the day light Himself.

And, the morning star- type angels, using their lights were used to herd and control the movement and seasons of the prehistoric life.

As Adam was given dominion over the animals of this creation? Angels were given dominion over the prehistoric animals.

Trouble happened when Lucifer became arrogantly bored (and some other angels who felt the same way) wanted to reject God's authority.. Lucifer then became the first corrupt labor union organizer and had those angels joining with him go out on strike against God.

we are still here... yet seated above.

The Barbarian said:

Chickens still have the genes for reptilian teeth. But another gene suppresses them. And yes, you can mess with chicken embryos to inactivate the suppressor.

The finding made scientists curious whether healthy chickens still possessed the 80-million-year-old genetic pathway for producing teeth.

By making a few changes to the expression of certain molecules in the pathway, the researchers were able to induce tooth growth in normal developing chickens. These teeth also looked like reptilian teeth and shared many of the same genetic traits, supporting the scientists' hypothesis. None of these chickens were allowed to hatch.
Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth | Live Science

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Thanks.

Personally, I think that a lot of the therapod dinosaurs of the Cretaceous also strongly suggest having evolved from birds. If these theropods lived today, most people would probably just call them birds just because that's what they looked like.

Like microraptor for example
Microraptor - Wikipedia

KomatiiteBIF said:

Thanks.

Personally, I think that a lot of the therapod dinosaurs of the Cretaceous also strongly suggest having evolved from birds. If these theropods lived today, most people would probably just call them birds just because that's what they looked like.

Like microraptor for example
Microraptor - Wikipedia

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God will change life on earth instantly, over night. Not by means of evolution... And, some residual traits may remain as deactivated DNA. Like many now have deactivated DOS hidden in their Windows 10 software.

For example...



Now if someone living in the year 500 of the Millennium? Digs up the lion bones of a lion from this age? And, observes its jaw and teeth?

If he is to be ignorant of what the Bible said about this present age? He might come up with some cockamamie notion that the lion he will see during the Millennium evolved from what is to become the next prehistoric world, the one we now find ourselves in!

God just changes things when He wills. Look at the serpent in the Garden. One second its adept on all fours. They next? A snake crawling on scutes... without legs. Evolution is not necessary with God. He simply upgrades the DNA software as He wishes.

I believe that's how the many races of man came about. After striking men at the Tower of babel with men now speaking all different languages.. and forcing man to scatter all over the face of the earth? God quickly adapted each man to the specific environment God had decreed for him. They physically became instantly adapted to the climate of their new location, which also served as a means to keep man where God had put him to be. God does not need evolution. Look how He turned Nebuchadnezzar into having an exterior of animal over night. (Daniel 5:20-21)

Why have evolution when God already knows what will be required for the change?

How long did it take those beaks to change when Darwin was on spring break? Hundreds of years? No. It was quickly accomplished, knowing exactly what was needed. No missing links.

Religiot said:

Your question doesn't truly follow from my post, but is malformed, in that it presupposes that I was referring to a part of the faith--I am not, I'm referring to the faith, the indivisible faith of Christ: that faith is only either alive or dead, but not in parts--that notion is derived from the traditions of men, not the words of God.

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OK, so how does that apply to Christians who believe in evolution? That has nothing to do with faith in Christ.

KomatiiteBIF said:

Personally, I think that a lot of the therapod dinosaurs of the Cretaceous also strongly suggest having evolved from birds. If these theropods lived today, most people would probably just call them birds just because that's what they looked like.

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Most people figure "if it has feathers, it's a bird." Turns out that feathers, the "avian" respiratory system, and other supposed bird apomorphic characters aren't apomorphic for birds at all. Many dinosaurs had them.

genez said:

God will change life on earth instantly, over night. Not by means of evolution... And, some residual traits may remain as deactivated DNA. Like many now have deactivated DOS hidden in their Windows 10 software.

For example...

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest." Isa 11:6-8​

Now if someone living in the year 500 of the Millennium? Digs up the lion bones of a lion from this age? And, observes its jaw and teeth?

If he is to be ignorant of what the Bible said about this present age? He might come up with some cockamamie notion that the lion he will see during the Millennium evolved from what is to become the next prehistoric world, the one we now find ourselves in!

God just changes things when He wills. Look at the serpent in the Garden. One second its adept on all fours. They next? A snake crawling on scutes... without legs. Evolution is not necessary with God. He simply upgrades the DNA software as He wishes.

I believe that's how the many races of man came about. After striking men at the Tower of babel with men now speaking all different languages.. and forcing man to scatter all over the face of the earth? God quickly adapted each man to the specific environment God had decreed for him. They physically became instantly adapted to the climate of their new location, which also served as a means to keep man where God had put him to be. God does not need evolution. Look how He turned Nebuchadnezzar into having an exterior of animal over night. (Daniel 5:20-21)

Why have evolution when God already knows what will be required for the change?

How long did it take those beaks to change when Darwin was on spring break? Hundreds of years? No. It was quickly accomplished, knowing exactly what was needed. No missing links.

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I agree that God can and has created things instantaneously.

However, sometimes God's will includes things that simply take time to unfold. A baby grows over time for example.

Really, the earth being old and the understanding that time has unfolded over a long time (billions of years) is a concept that is understood through things like structural geology and relative dating (which is different from and shouldn't be confused with radioactive dating). And doesnt have much to do with evolution. it just so happens that fossils are in the rocks, and so if the earths history unfolds over a long time, life on earth does too, by default.

genez said:

Have you ever seen the original black and white Godzilla movie? The scene where he is done with destroying Tokyo.. leaving it behind him in a dark, dreary, and smoldering heap?

That was like the opening scene for those listening to Moses teach the people. Moses was tough and bold when teaching. The Jews who knew Hebrew got it. We don't, because our version of Moses is too often like a poetic, sensitive, Shakespearean actor.


Can you please consider... Why would Jeremiah quote Genesis 1:2 as to inflict panic? Panic in the Jews who had been going out to the 'high places" having depraved pagan sex orgies? Orgies that involved throwing their children into fire as to further stimulate their sexual arousal?

WE DON"T KNOW what the Hebrew is telling us in certain passages! Why? We now have been given a nurse maid leading us with introverted and shy translations... The Word of God is powerful when presented properly. Too many believers remain weak in understanding and not trained for war in the spiritual realm as God needs to have believers equipped when facing a merciless deceiving enemy.

Know your enemy. Rip away his smiley mask he wears by finally learning the Truth/treasures God has hidden in His Word. When Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus never said "excuse me."

And, when Jesus called Peter "Satan." Jesus did not say excuse me. We need to grow up and become strong in Truth to know what kind of enemy we are facing. When we get to heaven life will flow in eternal pleasantness. Now we need to be made tranquil in our souls by grace and truth while the world around us is never certain... as we live and think as if it were certain, only because of the work the Lord has finally gotten completed in our thinking.

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There are many good sermons on why the gap theory is wrong, I am sure you are aware of them. I am sure they all argue far more eloquently than myself.
As my senior and as a man I do not wish to argue with you. The same way I do not wish to argue with the people on here who hold to a flat earth. They feel they have enough scriptural support for that stance while I don't think they do. Again I would want much more supporting scripture to consider it as a valid idea. Unlike most I do not toss away their argument as being foolish, nor yours. They are both ideas that I do not see enough scriptural support for. The fact that we disagree has already been established, there is no point rehashing the same ground.

As to Jeremiah, of course it would incite panic, many were to be killed. But they as a people would not be destroyed.

For this to be fleshed out there also needs to be verses indicating this first world. We all know that God is perfect, he didn't need a practice world and he doesn't make mistakes, So what was this world for and where is it shown in scripture?
If there are no verses indicating that there was a previous world then it is still just as idea, a hypothesis. Like any hypothesis is has a chance of being true or untrue, but without more solid verses indicating this previous world I do not see it as being something I would seriously consider.

I am not here for other creationists no matter how much they may differ from myself.
Our enemy is not each other it is Satan and evolution, a system that would take God away as being the sovereign creator.

genez said:

Why no dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?

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They are mentioned in the Bible.

Job 40:15-24
“Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. “He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword! ...

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Job 41:1-34
“Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook or press down his tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many pleas to you? Will he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you put him on a leash for your girls? ...

Psalm 74:13
You divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.

Dinosaurs were called dragons for thousands of years before the name was changed to dinosaur in 1841. There are dragon stories all over the world because they have always intrigued and brought fear to man. Yet they are simply an animal, and like all animals no matter how fierce they are still no match for mankind.

coffee4u said:

Our enemy is not each other it is Satan and evolution, a system that would take God away as being the sovereign creator.

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If so, it's peculiar that Darwin asserted that God created the first living things. Evolution, which is an observed natural process, could no more take away God than could the rain.

Trev T said:

Why does this impossible process, with impossible odds, seem so rational to this new breed of Christians? It's growing, and it might be blasphemy. Aren't they calling God a liar?

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It’s a compromise so that they aren’t jeered at for not following along with the evolutionists who sit in places of power laughing at those who don’t join them.

Also, one has to invest time into researching the theory and what has actually been found to be true. The emperor is not really wearing anything but anyone who can’t see the invisible clothes is jeered at or worse. Better to remark on how fine the weave is.

Dorothy Mae said:

Also, one has to invest time into researching the theory and what has actually been found to be true.

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Sounds interesting. What do you think evolution is? And what things about it have been found to be true?

The Barbarian said:

Sounds interesting. What do you think evolution is? And what things about it have been found to be true?

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Simply put, evolution is change over time. What is true? Living creatures change slightly from one generation to the next although most of these changes seem to be less robust. Malfunction due to mutations generally cause disease or a less robust offspring, for example, if they affect any noticeable change at all.