Why do people even want to put evolution in the equation?

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Christianity today is in deep trouble. And, we see the very reason why online all the time these days. Its not arguing with objectivity. But arguing using imposed invented requirements that divert to only serve to distract away from the real issue that one wishes to deny.

Nailed it.

 

[GenemZ]

well as the cliche goes, were still monkeys, wether you like it or not. I accept the reality of the situation, and rather glory god in truth then hang on to lies for fear of the truth. I've read and researched evolution, everything that I've seen points to it being real.

We can't be monkeys.... For Genesis 1:27 tells us that the human male and female souls were created in His image. That is why God could give man animals to eat for food, but forbid human sacrifice.. For animal souls do not have everlasting life. Animals souls were not created in God's image.

 

[Religiot]

Which part of the faith do people who believe in evolution not keep?

Your question doesn't truly follow from my post, but is malformed, in that it presupposes that I was referring to a part of the faith--I am not, I'm referring to the faith, the indivisible faith of Christ: that faith is only either alive or dead, but not in parts--that notion is derived from the traditions of men, not the words of God.

 

[GenemZ]

Still waiting for you to address the content of the video

If I did not know God was real? And, lacked any personal sense of Him being real? I would be practically forced to accept the evolutionist's theory.

On the other hand.......

The problem young earth creationists are trapped in... They KNOW God is real. They do not care if you do not believe in creationism, because they know those who are devoid of a personal relationship with knowing God is real? (Its something they know experientially, not simply something they will tell themselves and others they believe, as to not loose respectability with others)... They are willing to look foolish before men. Because they know if God says the earth is only 7000 years old, it must be.

Problem is.... they failed to properly exegete the first chapter of Genesis and failed to see that a prehistoric creation was left in ruins, and that Genesis One speaks of the regeneration of the planet into becoming a new heavens and earth.

Both sides are blind to their own flaws in logic, but keenly aware of the flaws in logic of the one they oppose. It has for that reason become an unresolvable, never ending conflict... To objective outsiders who have sound doctrinal understanding it eventually must become an annoying bore to watch. For, both sides never evolve.

 

[disciple Clint]

No the stupid comment was the, "Only a theory." you know how dumb a comment like that and just makes you look foolish. You don't have to accept evolution, but least try to keep up with what evolution ACTUALLY says.

I know I do not need your insults, if you cannot make your point without being rude I feel sorry for you.

 

[Jaxxi]

I find the evidence for evolution to be convincing. I find the insistent comparison between evolution and the first couple Genesis chapters to be a category mistake.

One is a religious document making claims about God, the world, and humanity (and the relation between the three). The main thrust of these claims is outside the purview of scientific investigation, i.e. metaphysics. The other is a theory based on data, i.e. physical phenomena. It's a category mistake and a sign of intellectual laziness and arrogance to not acknowledge and allow for the differences between the two.

There is no science to explain the Supernatural, yet we know it exists. It cannot be disproven- and we have many instances that are pretty close to being proof. Is the Universe finite or infinite? Is it still expanding? Are there other layers of the Universe, or dimensions? Science cannot prove everything, nor is it the answer to everything. There have been many findings in recent years that have scientists baffled and heading back to the drawing board because they are scientifically impossible, or contradict what we know about certain things, or thought we knew. Like why is the Moon rusting? There is no water on it. Scientists have no answers. God does. He laughs at us because He has all the answers.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Psalm 2:4

 

[loveofourlord]

I know I do not need your insults, if you cannot make your point without being rude I feel sorry for you.

Rude is making a statement you know is false just to play, "Gotcha." if you can't handle criticism then maybe you shouldn't make a fool of yourself.

 

[coffee4u]

Still waiting for you to address the content of the video

I did, those drawing are fraudulent. As soon as I saw that I stopped watching. Why should I look at anything else this person has to say? If he uses fraudulent drawing of embryos which is something I know for sure was a complete hoax, what other fraudulent things is he putting out there? They have discredited themselves as a good source.
It would be exactly the same if a preacher got up and said repent and pray to John the baptist. I would be out the door. So no, why would I waste my time wading through crap to try and uncover whatever truths might be spoken.

 

[coffee4u]

well as the cliche goes, were still monkeys, wether you like it or not. I accept the reality of the situation, and rather glory god in truth then hang on to lies for fear of the truth. I've read and researched evolution, everything that I've seen points to it being real.

"then hang on to lies for fear of the truth."
So scripture is lying?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[coffee4u]

Of course the word "destroy" does not appear.

You are arguing like someone who was told his forest will be left in cinders... and... you argue back with? That the word "fire" does not appear in the threat.. therefore it can not mean being destroyed... ..... hello?

Christianity today is in deep trouble. And, we see the very reason why online all the time these days. Its not arguing with objectivity. But arguing using imposed invented requirements that divert to only serve to distract away from the real issue that one wishes to deny.

Now.. How can Genesis 1:2 be possibly used as a threat by Jeremiah against rebellious Jews? If your meek rendering were to be applied? It sounds silly.

You keep failing to keep in mind, Jeremiah was confronting degenerate Jews. Jews who had become deeply hardened by habitual perversions in sinning. Murder was one of their sins. They needed to be clobbered by God with harsh reality to get through if it were to be done. You? You approach them with politically correct politeness. Totally out of touch with what Jeremiah had to deal with.


Its showing that Genesis 1:2 was an after effect! The Jews knowing Hebrew saw it as a severe and horrible Judgment coming upon them.


After quoting Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah needed to add something. It was to tell the Jews that they would not be utterly destroyed (for that was how the earth was found in Genesis 1:2)

27 For thus says the Lord, “The whole land shall be a desolation;
though I will not destroy it completely."
​

Read that?

....though I will not destroy it completely."
​

Jeremiah was modifying the original intent of Genesis 1:2.

For the Jews implicitly understood what the real meaning of "tohu wabohu" found in Genesis 1:2 meant. It was not a gentle .."empty and void." It was not some dainty words the Spirit moving Jeremiah was using...

It definitely indicated destruction! If not? Jeremiah would not have had to qualify his using of Genesis 1:2 by adding...

...though I will not destroy it completely."

Ready to be honest with me?

Word meanings are important, they can change the entire meaning of a verse or a story or a document.

"forest will be left in cinders"
Yes I would agree, being left in cinders would mean a fire, because fire produces cinders. Is there anything else that could produce cinders? I can't think of any. So in that case you have only 1 possibility.

The words used in Genesis were formlessness, confusion, unreality and emptiness and those do not make me think of a developed world that is then destroyed. There is not even a hint in there that there was a previous developed world.

To me formless means God created the world and it was formless and empty, because he had not yet begun creating upon it.

But the Jewish nation was not destroyed. Devastated yes, but not destroyed because they are still with us. Also that verse is about their land not the world.

Do you have no other verses indicating this previous world you believe in? Or verses indicating its destruction? I would need far more scriptural backup before even considering it a possibility. Also why would God create a world simply to destroy it? That makes no sense.

I believe Christianity is is deep trouble because of evolution. People would much rather believe in something they think man has 'proved' rather than in God's word.

I can tell you believe scripture as much as I do, but obviously we view this quite differently. We shall not agree over the single or double creation. But I don't wish to argue with you over it.

 

[The Barbarian]

Your question doesn't truly follow from my post, but is malformed, in that it presupposes that I was referring to a part of the faith--I am not, I'm referring to the faith, the indivisible faith of Christ: that faith is only either alive or dead, but not in parts--that notion is derived from the traditions of men, not the words of God.

You do realize that the Bible was compiled by men,depending on faith, tradition, and scholarship, right? Fallible men decided which books were the word of God. There wasn't any canon at at all until the high middle ages, and even today, Christians can't entirely agree on what comprises the word of God.

 

[Job 33:6]

If I did not know God was real? And, lacked any personal sense of Him being real? I would be practically forced to accept the evolutionist's theory.

On the other hand.......

The problem young earth creationists are trapped in... They KNOW God is real. They do not care if you do not believe in creationism, because they know those who are devoid of a personal relationship with knowing God is real? (Its something they know experientially, not simply something they will tell themselves and others they believe, as to not loose respectability with others)... They are willing to look foolish before men. Because they know if God says the earth is only 7000 years old, it must be.

Problem is.... they failed to properly exegete the first chapter of Genesis and failed to see that a prehistoric creation was left in ruins, and that Genesis One speaks of the regeneration of the planet into becoming a new heavens and earth.

Both sides are blind to their own flaws in logic, but keenly aware of the flaws in logic of the one they oppose. It has for that reason become an unresolvable, never ending conflict... To objective outsiders who have sound doctrinal understanding it eventually must become an annoying bore to watch. For, both sides never evolve.

I've read a handfull of ideas that some theologians have proposed for how scripture might match or be supported by the theory of evolution. Sometimes I have trouble with interpretations of scripture related to end-times and creation, as both seem to reflect one another in that the beginning and end are "good".

Unfortunately, simplistic literalist readings are much more easy to understand, and having things like Ken hams creation museum with animatronic dinosaurs on a giant boat supported by a modern steel frame doesn't really help the general public of non-theologians and non-scientists.

I suppose the best I could do is, much like spreading the gospel, just try to educate people on geology where there is opportunity or where people have questions.

And unfortunately religious leaders are also put in a bind. Say the wrong thing and you could lose half your congregation, which equates to a loss of funding of missions or community projects or things that help the church grow.

I think that evolution does put scripture in a tough spot too though because if we take evolution to equate to a methodological naturalism, then it would eventually result in Jesus being a mere man, which, as someone mentioned above, would defeat the entire resurrection (how could a mere human rise from the dead or be born without a father, or how could Adam be formed of dust if he descended from prior humans?).

But surely there must be some solution between the embarrassing beliefs of believing in dinosaurs on a boat much like a tardis booth in which the inside of the boat is bigger than it's outside in order to fit the animals, and women being made of rib bones, talking snakes and hydro-tectonic plates bouncing around like ping pong balls etc. (I've literally laughed out loud) and the arguably harder alternative for many Christians of a godless atheism where we all have no hope in life and are just lost without purpose on an empty rock spinning in endless nothingness of space.

Maybe the body of Christ is destined to carry this baggage forever. Because sometimes with Christ, it's all or nothing.

Hopefully rational minds will prevail, despite the clear challenges in understanding the complex theology behind scripture.

 

[The Barbarian]

Hopefully rational minds will prevail, despite the clear challenges in understanding the complex theology behind scripture.

If we all understand that your opinion of evolution has no bearing at all on your salvation, things might go better. God judges you on other things, not evolution.

 

[Job 33:6]

If we all understand that your opinion of evolution has no bearing at all on your salvation, things might go better. God judges you on other things, not evolution.

Oh did I post that? Haha, I went back and edited some, feel free to check it out!

But yes, thankfully there is kind of this separation.

There are some concepts that are necessary to believe for salvation, and then there are others concepts that are not. And thankfully believing that the earth was made last Tuesday is not necessary for salvation, and so the struggle for the Christian identity goes on.

 

[Job 33:6]

I've read a handfull of ideas that some theologians have proposed for how scripture might match or be supported by the theory of evolution. Sometimes I have trouble with interpretations of scripture related to end-times and creation, as both seem to reflect one another in that the beginning and end are "good".

Unfortunately, simplistic literalist readings are much more easy to understand, and having things like Ken hams creation museum with animatronic dinosaurs on a giant boat supported by a modern steel frame doesn't really help the general public of non-theologians and non-scientists.

I suppose the best I could do is, much like spreading the gospel, just try to educate people on geology where there is opportunity or where people have questions.

And unfortunately religious leaders are also put in a bind. Say the wrong thing and you could lose half your congregation, which equates to a loss of funding of missions or community projects or things that help the church grow.

I think that evolution does put scripture in a tough spot too though because if we take evolution to equate to a methodological naturalism, then it would eventually result in Jesus being a mere man, which, as someone mentioned above, would defeat the entire resurrection (how could a mere human rise from the dead or be born without a father, or how could Adam be formed of dust if he descended from prior humans?).

But surely there must be some solution between the embarrassing beliefs of believing in dinosaurs on a boat much like a tardis booth in which the inside of the boat is bigger than it's outside in order to fit the animals, and women being made of rib bones, talking snakes and hydro-tectonic plates bouncing around like ping pong balls etc. (I've literally laughed out loud) and the arguably harder alternative for many Christians of a godless atheism where we all have no hope in life and are just lost without purpose on an empty rock spinning in endless nothingness of space.

Maybe the body of Christ is destined to carry this baggage forever. Because sometimes with Christ, it's all or nothing.

Hopefully rational minds will prevail, despite the clear challenges in understanding the complex theology behind scripture.

Whatever that middle ground solution is, it will have to incorporate the theory of evolution. Not necessarily methodological naturalism, but most certainly common descent and the understanding that we have evolved from apes, synapsids, diapsids, reptiles, tetrapodomorphs, fish and worms, and to be fair, bacteria and molecules too...essentially.

 

[GenemZ]

"then hang on to lies for fear of the truth."
So scripture is lying?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Note!

MADE (asah)

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the
sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.​

It does not say created. (bara)

Hebrew of the Bible - 101.

Asah means to make something while using something already existing.

Bara means not using anything that is existing to produce something.

Bara is only attributed to God who is able to create something out from "nothing." It does not say God created in six days. . It says He made. Made something with what had already been created in the beginning (before the first day) out from nothing (bara).."In the beginning God 'bara' created the heavens and earth." We need to know this lest we remain ignorant and confident.

Poor and sloppy and superficial (come easy) interpretations makes for spiritually lazy people to feel content with themselves. It why we find the mess we are in...

No truth? It becomes a never ending (and numbing and dumb) argument on both sides because its based upon their dogmatic ignorance.


Most people like to bond with like minded people, and congratulate each other when they win for their side. Instead.. God wants believers to only be one in the Spirit and in Truth. Man without spiritual union with God wants to become one in a cause. Their unity is based upon how they feel about a matter. What only seems right to themselves.

God's Word is filled with surprises designed to expose our self confident ignorance. When exposed that can cause us to fear when confronted to see how stupid we can be. Yet, fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

That's the process. Knowing we can not know certain truths unless shown as God wishes... like a child learning to speak. Yet, by such maturing it will remove such pride from having a vote over our thinking and lives.


grace and peace.....

 

[GenemZ]

The words used in Genesis were formlessness, confusion, unreality and emptiness and those do not make me think of a developed world that is then destroyed. There is not even a hint in there that there was a previous developed world.

Have you ever seen the original black and white Godzilla movie? The scene where he is done with destroying Tokyo.. leaving it behind him in a dark, dreary, and smoldering heap?

That was like the opening scene for those listening to Moses teach the people. Moses was tough and bold when teaching. The Jews who knew Hebrew got it. We don't, because our version of Moses is too often like a poetic, sensitive, Shakespearean actor.


Can you please consider... Why would Jeremiah quote Genesis 1:2 as to inflict panic? Panic in the Jews who had been going out to the 'high places" having depraved pagan sex orgies? Orgies that involved throwing their children into fire as to further stimulate their sexual arousal?

WE DON"T KNOW what the Hebrew is telling us in certain passages! Why? We now have been given a nurse maid leading us with introverted and shy translations... The Word of God is powerful when presented properly. Too many believers remain weak in understanding and not trained for war in the spiritual realm as God needs to have believers equipped when facing a merciless deceiving enemy.

Know your enemy. Rip away his smiley mask he wears by finally learning the Truth/treasures God has hidden in His Word. When Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus never said "excuse me."

And, when Jesus called Peter "Satan." Jesus did not say excuse me. We need to grow up and become strong in Truth to know what kind of enemy we are facing. When we get to heaven life will flow in eternal pleasantness. Now we need to be made tranquil in our souls by grace and truth while the world around us is never certain... as we live and think as if it were certain, only because of the work the Lord has finally gotten completed in our thinking.

 

[loveofourlord]

"then hang on to lies for fear of the truth."
So scripture is lying?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

nice job misinterpreting what I said, what I call lies are what creationists spread about evolution. Instead of arguing against what evolution actually says you rely in strawman and lies. I again see the truth of evolution, so it's either reject reality or reject god, I chose to accept and embrace reality. Wish creationists could. You don't glory god by turning people away from him by lying about reality. Anyone that actually understands evolution is going to accept creationiss lies and such. And all your insistence that evolution and bible are incompatible is have people reject the bible. You want to turn people to god then stop with the pratts, the lies, the misrepresentations about evolution. Maybe actually learn what it's about instead of repeating old pratts.

 

[GenemZ]

nice job misinterpreting what I said, what I call lies are what creationists spread about evolution. Instead of arguing against what evolution actually says you rely in strawman and lies. I again see the truth of evolution, so it's either reject reality or reject god, I chose to accept and embrace reality. Wish creationists could.

Both evolutionists and young earth creationists refuse to embrace reality. They need each other to perpetuate their momentum in having a cause to live by. Its emotionally based like rooting for one's favorite sport team.

You can see their lies. They see your lies. But, both do not see the truth they are both missing.

Where does that leave us?

You did not come here thinking you were going to convince a young earth creationist, did you?

Both like the challenge of an argument.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

God's Word is filled with surprises designed to expose our self confident ignorance. When exposed that can cause us to fear when confronted to see how stupid we can be. Yet, fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Truth!