Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

DamianWarS

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In your illustration adapted to "electricity" the robot was already coming to every house in the neighborhood with bread no matter what you do and you don't have to pay anything on Sabbath.
it's billed so you are participating in a for-profit market (exchanging money for goods) and you're still ignoring the team of people needed to keep the robot going. I'm still looking for a criteria but all you seem to be focused on is trying to discredit me.
 
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DamianWarS

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my criteria for what keeping the letter of the law is and what is not is based on the law itself. You have failed to give me a criteria as to why you think we should keep the letter of the 10 commandments (plus a few) aside from tradition so until that happens we can't discuss why this should be valued or not. I probably keep the sabbath similar to how you do but I know I don't keep the letter of the sabbath. I don't even think I could if I tried.
 
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Freth

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Modern Sabbath keepers do not keep the Sabbath according to the letter of the law translated into a modern context which would forbid partipation in non essential labour-driven services (like the non essential use of the electrical grid as an example). Instead they elect to keep a version of the Sabbath amended to ensure modern conveniences and comforts are untouched.

Read the 4th commandment yourself, it has as much or more focus on those in our reach keeping the Sabbath as it does yourself. Modern Sabbath keepers hoard the Sabbath and are no different than modern Jews who view everyone on the outside as Gentiles and out of their peripheral concern (which is debilitatingly near sighted) and grossly misses the point of the Sabbath.

Your first sentence is a blanket statement. You can't possibly know how every person observes the Sabbath.

Translated into a modern context? You're adding to scripture, which is something Jesus warned about in Revelation 22:18-19.

Hoard the Sabbath? Hoarding it would be keeping it to ourselves—we're sharing it. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, as per Mark 2:27.
 
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Albion

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Your first sentence is a blanket statement. You can't possibly know how every person observes the Sabbath.
True, but it is undeniable that it's a rare person who says he upholds the Sabbath and actually does (or doesn't) do all that would be required if the Sabbath were genuinely maintained as in the days of Moses. Yet the claim we're given is that they do!
 
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DamianWarS

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It's like the Pharisee's more concerned with how others are keeping or not keeping, than worrying about themselves keeping Gods Sabbath for their own blessing and missing so much.
this is an open forum about the freedom of discussions like these and governed but rules. it was started by someone who feels excommunicated by the SDA. You seem to be trying to discredit me by calling me a Pharisee suppressing the discussion I bring up. Even if my motivations are all that you think they are it still doesn't answer the problem which apparently is too pharisaical so is just swept under a rug.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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True, but it is undeniable that it's a rare person who says he upholds the Sabbath who actually does (or doesn't) do all that would be required if the Sabbath were genuinely maintained as in the days of Moses. Yet the claim that we're given is that they do!
So it that a reason in your opinion to not even try to keep God's 4th commandment? I still don't know how anyone would know what over 20 million people do unless they are God because scripture tells us only He is all knowing. He is also our only judge.
 
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DamianWarS

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Your first sentence is a blanket statement. You can't possibly know how every person observes the Sabbath.
yes, I should have added based on my experience no one I've met actually keeps the sabbath. They may keep a version of it that their tradition upholds but that version doesn't hold up to the letter of the law.

Translated into a modern context? You're adding to scripture, which is something Jesus warned about in Revelation 22:18-19.

what part is in disagreement with the 4th commandment? I've added modern technology to the list, that's the only thing but work is still work and people are still people.

Hoard the Sabbath? Hoarding it would be keeping it to ourselves—we're sharing it. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, as per Mark 2:27.
tell that to the thousands of workers at man-powered and for-profit systems we indiscriminately partake of during the Sabbath

read the law yourself. all those under your household are obligated to keep the sabbath even your slave and animals. your slave and animals have no power to rest unless they are given that rest (and in an ancient content that extends to the entire household). this is a powerful metaphor for salvation. We are given God's rest having no power or authority to obtain it ourselves. The Sabbath points to God's salvation and that's what the Sabbath is about. If you don't want to hoard the sabbath then start spreading the gospel as far and wide as possible, then you are sharing God's sabbath with others. Jesus says himself it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath (like rescuing lost sheep), doesn't this beg the question why don't we just do good? and why limit this to one day a week? why not release this goodness every day?
 
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DamianWarS

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So it that a reason in your opinion to not even try to keep God's 4th commandment
it is a reason that I can't keep the 4th commandment even when I try. I still value the day and probably do (or do not do) similar things you do (or do not do), I just know my version of the Sabbath will always fall short of the letter of the law.
 
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Albion

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So it that a reason in your opinion to not even try to keep God's 4th commandment?
That's not the point. Unless it's a different point. In all these posts, the SDA members have been saying that the original Sabbath must be kept! God commanded it and he doesn't change! The strict "letter of the law" stuff.

But who does it? Well, not any SDAs that I know. And apparently not any that Damian knows. In fact, it's close to impossible to imagine that there are many people who DO keep all the requirements as they were initially laid down and understood thousands of year ago.

And do not say anything about natural evolution or current conditions or adaptations necessitated by changing times. Not after ruling out ANY departure from the original way. If that were allowed, rather than scorned, the POV concerning the Sabbath as held by most other Christian denominations would have been approved of.
 
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Freth

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Supreme blame on him for having acted through the Catholic Church?
Here's something to read that addresses the issue we are dealing with --
See Seventh-day Adventism

Daniel gives clear descriptors of the civil-religious power that Satan works through.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws [of God]: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
What civil-religious power speaks words against the most High? What civil-religious power wore out the saints of the most High? What civil-religious power changed times and laws? What civil-religious power persecuted Christians during the prophesied 42 months (1260 prophetic years; the dark ages)?

Revelation gives more descriptors.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.
What civil-religious power uses the colors purple and scarlet? What civil-religious power uses precious stones and has a golden cup in her hand? What civil-religious power is full of the abominations of filthiness of her own fornication?

More descriptors.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman [church] drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
What civil-religious power is known for killing upwards of 50 million Christians?

Long before Ellen White was born, Reformers came to this same reasoned conclusion from scripture.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That's not the point. Unless it's a different point. In all these posts, the SDA members have been saying that the original Sabbath must be kept! God commanded it and he doesn't change! The strict "letter of the law" stuff.

But who does it? Well, not any SDAs that I know. And apparently not any that Damian knows. In fact, it's close to impossible to imagine that there are many people who DO keep all the requirements as they were initially laid down and understood thousands of year ago.

And do not say anything about natural evolution or current conditions or adaptations necessitated by changing times. Not after ruling out ANY departure from the original way. If that were allowed, rather than scorned, the POV concerning the Sabbath as held by most other Christian denominations would have been approved of.

Actually I think my original response addressed everything you just repeated.

Also, no one is pointing out the 4th commandment out of scorn. It's is out of love. Some interpret it that way because no matter how much scripture is provided on how important the Sabbath is to God according to over 170+ scriptures about God's Sabbath in the Bible, but people want to ignore in favor of tradition and hold on to the 8 verses
referencing the first day, that does not show is God's Sabbath, or a Holy day or anything other than a day to do "work and labor". These are God's Words, not mine.

Everyone is invited to keep God's Sabbath holy and receive the blessing. It's usually the ones who do not even try, are critical of the ones who do. God bless
 
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Albion

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Daniel gives clear descriptors of the civil-religious power that Satan works through.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws [of God]: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​



It seems to me that, while the principle here is correct and Christians of all denominations agree to it, the problem comes with applying it. What you have been told is a prime example of Satan at work is not what the next denomination focuses on, and vice-versa. And, by the way, I'm not seeing anywhere in your long post that the Catholic Church is the particular agent of Satan, doctrinally speaking.​
 
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Albion

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Also, no one is pointing out the 4th commandment out of scorn.
I didn't say that anyone was doing that.

Everyone is invited to keep God's Sabbath holy and receive the blessing. It's usually the ones who do not even try, are critical of the ones who do. God bless
LOL

The ones who don't feel the need keep the Saturday Sabbath are not the ones who make an issue of it.

When was the last time, for example, that you heard or read a Methodist or a Lutheran berating an Adventist or someone else who belongs to any other Sabbatarian denomination because they think it's important to keep the Sabbath? Never. Or almost never. But we have long threads here in which SDA tell the rest of us Christians off because we are supposedly doing the work of Satan, or defying God, and/or ignoring the Bible!
 
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Freth

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That's not the point. Unless it's a different point. In all these posts, the SDA members have been saying that the original Sabbath must be kept! God commanded it and he doesn't change! The strict "letter of the law" stuff.

But who does it? Well, not any SDAs that I know. And apparently not any that Damian knows. In fact, it's close to impossible to imagine that there are many people who DO keep all the requirements as they were initially laid down and understood thousands of year ago.

And do not say anything about natural evolution or current conditions or adaptations necessitated by changing times. Not after ruling out ANY departure from the original way. If that were allowed, rather than scorned, the POV concerning the Sabbath as held by most other Christian denominations would have been approved of.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
  • Remember the Sabbath day (observe it) and remember creation (when God sanctified it).
  • Keep it holy.
    • Do not do any work.
    • Rest.
    • Not doing your own ways, finding your own pleasure or speaking your own words.
  • Call the Sabbath a delight, because it's the holy [day] of the Lord and honorable.
These things are not difficult whatsoever. Any Christian can keep the Sabbath. It is not a burden but a blessing. If God's holy Sabbath is a burden, then you have one foot in the world.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I didn't say that anyone was doing that.


LOL

The ones who don't feel the need keep the Saturday Sabbath are not the ones who make an issue of it.

When was the last time, for example, that you heard or read a Methodist or a Lutheran berating an Adventist or someone else who belongs to any other Sabbatarian denomination because they think it's important to keep the Sabbath? Never. Or almost never. But we have long threads here in which SDA tell the rest of us Christians off because we are supposedly doing the work of Satan, or defying God, and/or ignoring the Bible!
Pointing out scripture is not berating. Sorry you take it that way.
 
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1. We also think the Mormon doctrine is in error that states that Jesus was simply an Archangel named Michael before the incarnation - and not what He really was - which is infinite God the Son second person of the Trinity. We have that debate with Mormons from time to time - including on CF.

2. SDAs have 28 doctrinal statements - and "Jesus is Archangel Michael" is not one of them.

3. Our claim is more along the lines of Gen 18.
Now the Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree;

Now almost all denominations on planet Earth will admit that these "men" were in fact YHWH and two angels as the text points out. The fact that they were functioning and relating to Abraham "as 3 men" did not change the reality of what they really were. Christ is God the Son - in the Adventist view His warrior name and persona is Michael, and as Savior He is Jesus Christ -- but still infinite God the Son. the difference for us is that he was incarnate as Jesus Christ , but was never incarnate as Michael - rather Michael was just an assumed form for a specific purpose as when he appeared "as a man" to Abraham in Gen 18. That was not an incarnate God the Son - rather it was God the Son appearing in the form of a man to Abraham.

by contrast - as the baby in Bethlehem - that was God the Son incarnate in human flesh.

====================================

So then by way of "opposition" someone might claim that "yes YHWH as God the Son did appear in the form of a man to Abraham but would never appear in the form of an Archangel to Angels" - they are free to have that preference. Everyone has free will and could speculate that restriction of they so chose.

In Heb 1 "Let all the Angels of God worship Him" - speaking of God the Son being worshiped by His angels. In John 1 Jesus created everything and that includes Angels. So Jesus has Angels.

But in Rev 12 Michael has His angels and Satan has Angels that joined him in rebellion. For many Adventists this means that God the Son has a warrior role, a warrior name - Michael.
What???... Christ is the Logos of God, and the Archangel Michael is one of the archangels. They are two different persons: one is uncreated God, and the other is a creature created by God through His Logos and by His Spirit. The three men Whom Abraham showed hospitality to are metaphors of each Divine Person of the Holy Trinity.
I kinda of feel the SDA church must be doing something right. All these posts about SDA's. Jesus did say: And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Mathew 10:22
Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Rajneeshis and many others are hated. It's not for Christ's sake that they are hated. Usually it's for their own sake that they are hated, and in most cases these words of Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:3) apply to them.
 
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Albion

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Pointing out scripture is not berating. Sorry you take it that way.
There was plenty more in those posts than just "pointing out scripture." The "pointing" came with a lot of ugly characterizations of Christians who do not agree with your denomination on this matter.
 
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Freth

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It seems to me that, while the principle here is correct and Christians of all denominations agree to it, the problem comes with applying it. What you have been told is a prime example of Satan at work is not what the next denomination focuses on, and vice-versa. And, by the way, I'm not seeing anywhere in your long post that the Catholic Church is the particular agent of Satan, doctrinally speaking.​

The beast of the sea of Revelation is the same beast of my previous post, described in detail.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.​

The beast's attributes point back to Daniel 8, which shows the origin of the beast, starting with Babylon, then Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome—out of which the little horn arose. The beast of the sea is none other than the little horn, the same power, but depicted later in time near the end.

Daniel and Revelation both give clear descriptors and point to Satan as the one who gave the beast its power. Again, the Reformers came to this conclusion and it was commonly accepted by other denominations, long before SDA existed. Just how it fell by the wayside could be a type of the falling away mentioned by Paul in Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It's obvious that such things are of Satan, but Revelation spells it out in clear enough terms that it is so. i.e. It's based on scripture.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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There was plenty more in those posts than just "pointing out scripture." The "pointing" came with a lot of ugly characterizations of Christians who do not agree with your denomination on this matter.
Honestly, it was never the intent. Again, I sincerely apologize if you felt it was this way. We all are very passionate about the Bible. The SDA does put a lot of emphasis on God's 10 commandments because it states so clearly why it is so important. If I ever did anything to offend you I am apologizing now for it. We also receive some really demeaning posts by people, we are human like everyone else. I try not to get defensive, but I know I am guilty of it and committed to doing better. God bless.
 
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