Purgatory

Danthemailman

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I understand it is shocking to see that some of the men who put out hate sites are willing to post absolute falsehoods, as was the case previously as refuted by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Research the history of the early Catholic Church for yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
I have researched it and I am a former Roman Catholic.
Do you also believe that gotquestions.org is hate site?

What does the Bible say about Purgatory? | GotQuestions.org

Catholics typically refer to sites that expose false doctrine taught by the RCC as a hate site.
 
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Valletta

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I have researched it and I am a former Roman Catholic.
Do you also believe that gotquestions.org is hate site?

What does the Bible say about Purgatory? | GotQuestions.org

Catholics typically refer to sites that expose false doctrine taught by the RCC as a hate site.
There are those that can discuss civilly and those who can't. Also, there are sites that go with false information and won't correct it, such as that claim about the deuterocanonicals supposedly never having been written in Hebrew. If a site deliberately breaks God's Commandments I would stay far away. A hate site starts with some false premise rather than quote the Catholic Catechism and does a lot of name calling or similar put downs. Gendron posts this on the site:
"If there's no Purgatory, there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death" (from "The Pope and the Papacy"). The Origin of Purgatory There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church."
The Catholic Church does NOT teach that purgatory is a second chance and while there are not many documents from the first two centuries those that survive contradict Gendron's claim:
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]). What Gendron does is take advantage of those who do not know Catholic theology and who do not know history.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I understand it is shocking to see that some of the men who put out hate sites are willing to post absolute falsehoods, as was the case previously as refuted by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Research the history of the early Catholic Church for yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

The WORK is tested by fire not the believer. There’s no mention of the believer being purified, the works are tested to see if they were of any value. If the works were of value then the builder will receive a reward. This reward is not salvation because salvation is not a reward. A reward is something earned salvation is by grace which the very definition of grace is an UNMERITED favor from God. The rewards we receive are the rewards we receive in heaven according to our deeds.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You must have missed my posts 274 and 275 in response to number 1 of his numbered list of claims. I said: "there are Hebrew versions of Tobit and Sirach represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, your statement 1 is obviously false" and gave a couple of links. I've read about the Dead Sea scrolls and seen some in person. I offered to go through the claims one at a time. I'm a member of the Catholic Church, not the "Roman Church," please respect this my brother in Christ.

I read both of these posts and your link doesn’t provide a single mention of purgatory or a purification. I honestly don’t even know why you posted that as evidence to support purgatory since it wasn’t even found until over 500 years after the doctrine of purgatory was formulated so it’s not like the church had access to it to make their decision anyway.
 
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Valletta

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The WORK is tested by fire not the believer. There’s no mention of the believer being purified, the works are tested to see if they were of any value. If the works were of value then the builder will receive a reward. This reward is not salvation because salvation is not a reward. A reward is something earned salvation is by grace which the very definition of grace is an UNMERITED favor from God. The rewards we receive are the rewards we receive in heaven according to our deeds.
James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
 
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BNR32FAN

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James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

See the definition of the Greek word dikaioō translated to “justified”.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Now if James we’re teaching that we are rendered, declared, or pronounced righteous by our works then he would be directly contradicting Paul in Romans 4.

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:2-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice what James says in verse

“But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.””
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

James is saying that a person is shown to be righteous by his works not that he is rendered or pronounced righteous by his works otherwise he is contradicting both Paul and David.
 
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Danthemailman

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See the definition of the Greek word dikaioō translated to “justified”.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Now if James we’re teaching that we are rendered, declared, or pronounced righteous by our works then he would be directly contradicting Paul in Romans 4.

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:2-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice what James says in verse

“But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.””
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

James is saying that a person is shown to be righteous by his works not that he is rendered or pronounced righteous by his works otherwise he is contradicting both Paul and David.
Amen! James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
 
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Valletta

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I read both of these posts and your link doesn’t provide a single mention of purgatory or a purification. I honestly don’t even know why you posted that as evidence to support purgatory since it wasn’t even found until over 500 years after the doctrine of purgatory was formulated so it’s not like the church had access to it to make their decision anyway.
I was simply responding to false claim number 1 of a numbered list that supposedly showed why the deuterocanonicals should not be considered Holy Scripture. It seems very clear, I started with "As to your numbered claims, the first was "Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin." while in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this wrong . . ."
 
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East of Eden

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2 Maccabees 12:45 records an atonement made for the dead. It does not specifically say where the dead were, only that an atonement was made for them.

Probably why so many Christians don't consider it canonical.
 
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East of Eden

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So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

No, and it is an insult to what Christ did on the cross, as if His sacrifice wasn't enough and we have to 'earn' it the rest of the way. Like the thief on the cross, when a believer dies they go to heaven. I have long thought this false doctrine is why you see so much bad behavior among Catholics, they think they can 'get it right' in purgatory, apparently making personal holiness optional, very sad. There are no such second chances.
 
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neither is Trinity. But as Christians, we are bound to that doctrine.

The concept of the Trinity is found as early as Genesis, "Let US make man in OUR image".
 
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East of Eden

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'Us" or "Our" is NOT the doctrine of the Trinity.:doh:

We disagree, post-Nicene church fathers understood God the Father to be speaking to the other two members of the Trinity.
 
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East of Eden

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They are in the minority.

I'm not sure about that, but there have been several heresies in past church history where orthodoxy was a minority position. In the last days apostasy will grow and be a majority position.
 
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East of Eden

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seems you need it to :oldthumbsup:

I do appreciate church history, it's one reason I'm not a Catholic. There are a number of protestant denominations who don't believe anything the early church didn't, the same can't be said of the RCC. I have to laugh at your sig line about nothing added to the Catholic church, CS Lewis said he could never be one because there are too many new doctrines in your church. Also the one about you have to be a Catholic to be saved, reminds me of Peter saying to Jesus, "Stop them, for they are not one of us." Your 'first pope' was then properly rebuked by Jesus.
 
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