Purgatory

[Valletta]

As to your numbered claims, the first was "Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin." while in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this wrong. Again, VanderCam's "Dead Sea Scrolls Today, written in 1994, won the Biblical Archaeology Society's Publication Award for the Best Popular Book on Biblical Archaeology. He also wrote "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible" in 2012. There are only three Archangels named in the Bible--Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. Be assured that when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s all apocryphal texts were rejected. One of your religion's traditions is in keeping the same order of books decided upon by the Catholic Church in the late 300s, although you have dropped some books. I don't recall claiming any angel name Phanuel is in charge of my eternal soul, I am drawing a blank on this. I have a question for you.
As to your claim of heresy and claiming books of the Bible are heresy, those books were physically within the bindings of King James Bibles until the 1800s. Why in the world would any God-fearing Christian keep heretical books within the bindings of the King James Bible? I mean, if you wanted them for historical study or some other reason then print them in a separate book

 

[Major1]

As to your numbered claims, the first was "Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin." while in fact the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this wrong. Again, VanderCam's "Dead Sea Scrolls Today, written in 1994, won the Biblical Archaeology Society's Publication Award for the Best Popular Book on Biblical Archaeology. He also wrote "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible" in 2012. There are only three Archangels named in the Bible--Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. Be assured that when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s all apocryphal texts were rejected. One of your religion's traditions is in keeping the same order of books decided upon by the Catholic Church in the late 300s, although you have dropped some books. I don't recall claiming any angel name Phanuel is in charge of my eternal soul, I am drawing a blank on this. I have a question for you.
As to your claim of heresy and claiming books of the Bible are heresy, those books were physically within the bindings of King James Bibles until the 1800s. Why in the world would any God-fearing Christian keep heretical books within the bindings of the King James Bible? I mean, if you wanted them for historical study or some other reason then print them in a separate book

From your post, you seem to be saying that you and your friends have verified what I posted as factual! Surprise!

You asked me...............
"I don't recall claiming any angel name Phanuel is in charge of my eternal soul, I am drawing a blank on this.

I did not say that you did claim such a thing. I only pointed out that in one of the books of the Apocrypha is found that their are angels who are given authority of the spirts in heaven. My point was, since that is not found anywhere in the Word of God, why do you want to accept a production which promote such HERESY?????

Then you asked me........
"As to your claim of heresy and claiming books of the Bible are heresy,"

I am NOT claiming anything at all. WHen you read the Bible and then you read the words I posted for you from Enoch, do YOU think that what is found in Enoch is HERESY??? YOU my friend are responsible for what YOU believe....not me. All I do is post Bible facts and then allow YOU to decide if YOU are going to believe the Word of God or the traditions of me. Please understand that I am neither YOUR judge or your enemy!!!!

Then you asked me........
"those books were physically within the bindings of King James Bibles until the 1800s. Why in the world would any God-fearing Christian keep heretical books within the bindings of the King James Bible? I mean, if you wanted them for historical study or some other reason then print them in a separate book"

The Apocrypha Controversy of the early 1800's enabled English Bible Societies to flood the bible-buying market with Apocrypha-less Protestant Bibles and in 1885 the "Apocrypha" was officially removed with the advent of the Revised Standard Version, which replaced the King James Version.

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of some historical value (e.g., details of the Maccabean revolt), the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."King James Version Defended page 98.
In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James himself said this about the Apocrypha:

"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."King James Charles Stewart
(Basilion Doron, page 13)

In his, "A Premonition to All Most Mightie Monarches,"--found in his Workes
(a collection of the king's writings)--King James said this--

"...Is it a small corrupting of the Scriptures to make all, or the most part of the Apocrypha of equall faith with the canonicall Scriptures...?"

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible. As more and more Christians were able to read and understand the KJV of the Bible, several things came to light from the Aposryphal books which CONTRADICTED the actual Word of God and some were..............

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin. None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church.

The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory which IS THE ONLY PLACE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PLACES ITS TEACHING IN OF PURGATORY:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

1. • Salvation by works:
     
     Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
     Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
     
     Magic:
     
     Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
     Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
     
     Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
   • It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
   • No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
   • Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.
   • Source:Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible. (jesus-is-lord.com)

And that my friend is WHY those books were removed. Obviousely there were spiritual Holy Spirit men back then just as there are today who made the right choices!

 

[Valletta]

From your post, you seem to be saying that you and your friends have verified what I posted as factual! Surprise!

You asked me...............
"I don't recall claiming any angel name Phanuel is in charge of my eternal soul, I am drawing a blank on this.

I did not say that you did claim such a thing. I only pointed out that in one of the books of the Apocrypha is found that their are angels who are given authority of the spirts in heaven. My point was, since that is not found anywhere in the Word of God, why do you want to accept a production which promote such HERESY?????

Then you asked me........
"As to your claim of heresy and claiming books of the Bible are heresy,"

I am NOT claiming anything at all. WHen you read the Bible and then you read the words I posted for you from Enoch, do YOU think that what is found in Enoch is HERESY??? YOU my friend are responsible for what YOU believe....not me. All I do is post Bible facts and then allow YOU to decide if YOU are going to believe the Word of God or the traditions of me. Please understand that I am neither YOUR judge or your enemy!!!!

Then you asked me........
"those books were physically within the bindings of King James Bibles until the 1800s. Why in the world would any God-fearing Christian keep heretical books within the bindings of the King James Bible? I mean, if you wanted them for historical study or some other reason then print them in a separate book"

The Apocrypha Controversy of the early 1800's enabled English Bible Societies to flood the bible-buying market with Apocrypha-less Protestant Bibles and in 1885 the "Apocrypha" was officially removed with the advent of the Revised Standard Version, which replaced the King James Version.

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of some historical value (e.g., details of the Maccabean revolt), the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."King James Version Defended page 98.
In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James himself said this about the Apocrypha:

"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."King James Charles Stewart
(Basilion Doron, page 13)

In his, "A Premonition to All Most Mightie Monarches,"--found in his Workes
(a collection of the king's writings)--King James said this--

"...Is it a small corrupting of the Scriptures to make all, or the most part of the Apocrypha of equall faith with the canonicall Scriptures...?"

Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible. As more and more Christians were able to read and understand the KJV of the Bible, several things came to light from the Aposryphal books which CONTRADICTED the actual Word of God and some were..............

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin. None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church.

The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory which IS THE ONLY PLACE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PLACES ITS TEACHING IN OF PURGATORY:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

1. • Salvation by works:
     
     Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
     Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
     
     Magic:
     
     Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
     Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
     
     Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
   • It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
   • No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
   • Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.
   • Source:Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible. (jesus-is-lord.com)

And that my friend is WHY those books were removed. Obviousely there were spiritual Holy Spirit men back then just as there are today who made the right choices!

I said "the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this wrong." That's an exact quotation. I am saddened at your tactic of making multiple new charges when refuted.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ah yes. The old fallback position on Purgatory. Purgatory must exist because -

A. It is not in the Bible, like the Trinity. Because "trinity" is not in the Bible and is a core Christian doctrine, Purgatory (and Nirvana, the Celestial Kingdom, the Wizard of Oz, et. al.) therefore are equally valid.
B. Because my particular denomination (RCC) tells me so.

But the Trinity is in the Bible. The idea of the Trinity is in the Bible they just didn’t have a word for it back then. The idea of purgatory is not in the Bible and it actually contradicts the Bible.

 

[Albion]

I said "the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this wrong." I am saddened at your tactic of making new charges when refuted.

If you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are an addition to the Bible and prove that there is a Purgatory defined as Purgatory was defined by the Roman Church...then make your case.

I've been expecting something like that, but it's not as though you can just throw out the words "Dead Sea Scrolls" and let it go at that.

 

[Valletta]

If you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are an addition to the Bible and prove that there is a Purgatory defined as Purgatory was defined by the Roman Church...then make your case.

I've been expecting something like that, but it's not as though you can just throw out the words "Dead Sea Scrolls" and let it go at that.

You must have missed my posts 274 and 275 in response to number 1 of his numbered list of claims. I said: "there are Hebrew versions of Tobit and Sirach represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, your statement 1 is obviously false" and gave a couple of links. I've read about the Dead Sea scrolls and seen some in person. I offered to go through the claims one at a time. I'm a member of the Catholic Church, not the "Roman Church," please respect this my brother in Christ.

 

[Valletta]

1

 

[Valletta]

But the Trinity is in the Bible. The idea of the Trinity is in the Bible they just didn’t have a word for it back then. The idea of purgatory is not in the Bible and it actually contradicts the Bible.

As I've said, the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory.

 

[Albion]

You must have missed my posts 274 and 275 in response to number 1 of his numbered list of claims. I said: "there are Hebrew versions of Tobit and Sirach represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, your statement 1 is obviously false" and gave a couple of links. I've read about the Dead Sea scrolls and seen some in person. I offered to go through the claims one at a time.

You're still just referring us to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[Albion]

As I've said, the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory.

That's like describing a Chevrolet by saying "there's a wheel." In other words, the issue concerns Purgatory, not something that might have one of the many characteristics of Purgatory.

By the standard you are proposing, Heaven and Hell also "are" Purgatory since they are states of being in the afterlife and that's what Purgatory is supposed to be as well. You can see that this doesn't work.

 

[Major1]

As I've said, the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory.

And all we are telling you that the Bible NO WHERE says anything about a purification process!!! NO WHERE!

The "Purification" of sins comes from the shed blood of God who in Christ died to cleanse our sin.

No other purification is possible or necessary!

 

[Major1]

As I've said, the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory.

That is an incorrect statement. There is NO purification process spoken of in the Bible!

 

[Dan Perez]

So i would like see scriptures considering this subject. Are there any scriptures which clearly tells us that this place exist?

Hi and it is made up as there is no Greek word for PURGATORY , and will never be found in VINE'S or in STRONG'S DICTIONARIES .

dan o

 

[Major1]

You must have missed my posts 274 and 275 in response to number 1 of his numbered list of claims. I said: "there are Hebrew versions of Tobit and Sirach represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, your statement 1 is obviously false" and gave a couple of links. I've read about the Dead Sea scrolls and seen some in person. I offered to go through the claims one at a time. I'm a member of the Catholic Church, not the "Roman Church," please respect this my brother in Christ.

Actually, I wish that I had the ability to keep pounding my head against the wall talking to you.

No matter what is said, or shown to you, you do not seem to have the ability to grasp it.

For that reason and a couple of more, I am leaving this conversation to others who have more time and patience that I do to talk with you.

 

[concretecamper]

You must have missed my posts 274 and 275 in response to number 1 of his numbered list of claims. I said: "there are Hebrew versions of Tobit and Sirach represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls, your statement 1 is obviously false" and gave a couple of links. I've read about the Dead Sea scrolls and seen some in person. I offered to go through the claims one at a time. I'm a member of the Catholic Church, not the "Roman Church," please respect this my brother in Christ.

I understood what you meant. I am positive he did too. A typical tactic this poster employs when boxed onto a corner. Ignore the facts and present a strawman. Believe me from personal experience.

 

[concretecamper]

That is an incorrect statement. There is NO purification process spoken of in the Bible!

you mean according to your fallible opinion

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I've said, the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory.

Yeah well the Bible also states that after coming to Christ we are “holy, blameless, beyond reproach”. Christ paid for all our sins and the doctrine of purgatory says that He only paid for some of them and the others that He didn’t pay for we have to pay for after death by suffering in purgatory which is not taught anywhere in the scriptures.

 

[Valletta]

Actually, I wish that I had the ability to keep pounding my head against the wall talking to you.

No matter what is said, or shown to you, you do not seem to have the ability to grasp it.

For that reason and a couple of more, I am leaving this conversation to others who have more time and patience that I do to talk with you.

If you find a website with false information, such as that about none of the books supposedly having been written in Hebrew, don't accept the rest of the information as truth. See if the website will make a correction. If it regards Catholics, ask a Catholic to verify the accuracy. Many times the stuff from hate sites is easily refutable. Trust in the Word of God.

Isaiah 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

 

[Danthemailman]

Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?

 

[Valletta]

Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?

I understand it is shocking to see that some of the men who put out hate sites are willing to post absolute falsehoods, as was the case previously as refuted by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Research the history of the early Catholic Church for yourself.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.