Do you believe the dead are conscious?

True Counterphobia said:

Would have been different like this.

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This was just a joke btw. I didn't mean anything personal by it. Bad joke.

True Counterphobia said:

This was just a joke btw. I didn't mean anything personal by it. Bad joke.

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I realised, good joke!

timothyu said:

What would classes accomplish in turning over our will to the will of the Father... something we were to do here now rather than later?

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They might not be classes of education, but perhaps more like opportunities to help some souls in Heaven who suffered greatly on Earth?

.Mikha'el. said:

No. Scripture refers to people who have died as "asleep" over and over again.

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"Fallen asleep" is simply a euphemism for having died, since that is often how people appear at death. It does not mean they are literally sleeping.

.Mikha'el. said:

No. Scripture refers to people who have died as "asleep" over and over again.

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But being asleep doesn't rule out consciousness (which I think was the original question) ..... the REM stage of sleep for instance is linked to dreaming, the brain is still functioning and sorting out the days experiences..... it is interesting how dreams can be one of the main channels in the Bible for angelic messages..... Joseph, and Pilates wife has an important dream, earlier Jacob / Solomon / Daniel

prodromos said:

"Fallen asleep" is simply a euphemism for having died, since that is often how people appear at death. It does not mean they are literally sleeping.

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Are we sure of that considering most people don't sleep with their eyes open and mouths askew.

timothyu said:

Are we sure of that considering most people don't sleep with their eyes open and mouths askew.

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You haven't seen me sleeping...

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

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Jesus talks in mark 9 about hell or Gehenna.
He says three consecutive times
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Also He says ‘there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth’ Matthew 13:42

I have heard teaching on ‘the worm’ being the human conscience, as in; the dead will remember their sins against The Lord while in eternal torment.
Scary Hope this helps

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

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"Absent from the body, present with the Lord". These are the words of the Apostle Paul. Not much else is said in scripture with such clarity.
Be blessed.

Albion said:

There are three generally agreed upon: 1) Denial of the Trinity, 2) use of some sort of "Scripture" other than the Bible and unique to the group, and 3) 'soul sleep,' i.e. denial of the immortality of the human spirit.

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That's amazing, seriously, cause all three categories are man-made conventions, as you just said, yet by observation, they are indeed man made.

To the first, the Nicene creed makes no admission:

THE NICENE CREED OF 325
(Received Text)
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things
visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father,
Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of
one substance ( ὁ μ οούσιον [Essence]) with the Father; by whom all
things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down
and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he
rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge
the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.
_________________________
The Greek original is given, together with the similar Palestinian confession, by Eusebius in his
Epistola ad Cæsareenses, which is preserved by Athanasius at the close of his Epistola de decretis
Synodi Nicænæ (Opera, ed. Montfaucon, I. 239); also, with some variations, in the Acts of the Council
of Chalcedon (Act. II. in Mansi, Tom. VII.); in Theoderet, H. E. I. 12; Socrates, H. E. I. 8; Gelasius,
H. Conc. Nic. 1. II. c. 35. See the literature and variations in Walch, l.c. pp. 75 and 87 sqq.; also
in Hahn, l.c. pp. 105 sqq.
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical Notes. Volume I. The History of
Creeds. [1876]

To the second, many books have indeed been removed from the bible; the bible itself is proof of that, for it internally references more than forty books not found therein; moreover, the 'hidden' books (apocryphal), were in most ancient bibles till the late 1800's, yet are now treated as pseudo scriptures--I could go on, but I think my point here is clearly made.

Concerning the third, Luther and Tyndale themselves argued against the practice of indulgences by appealing to what the scriptures say concerning the state of the dead--whether or not Luther later changed his mind, is moot to the point I here make:

The following is long, but I feel compelled to post it because of the almost incredible ignorance of most, concerning this subject.

PS: Decide for yourself if this is something new, but do so after reading it all, thanks.

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

On December 19, 1513, in connection with the eighth session of the fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimis) declaring, "We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal" (Damnamus et reprobamus omnes assertentes animam intellectivam mortalem esse). This was directed against the growing "heresy" of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and avowed the conditional immortality of man. The Bull also decreed that "all who adhere to the like erroneous assertions shall be shunned and punished as heretics." The decrees of this Council, it should be noted, were all issued in the form of Bulls or constitutions (H. J. Schroeder, Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils, 1937, pp. 483, 487).
In 1516 Pietro Pomponatius, of Mantua, noted Italian professor and leader among the Averrorists (who denied the immortality of the soul), issued a

[pg. 570]

book in opposition to this position called Treatise on the Immortality of the Soul. This was widely read, especially in the Italian universities. As a result, he was haled before the Inquisition, and his book publicly burned in Venice.
Then, on October 31, 1517, Luther posted his famous Theses on the church door in Wittenberg. In his 1520 published Defence of 41 of his propositions, Luther cited the pope's immortality declaration, as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals" (proposition 27). In the twenty-seventh proposition of his Defence Luther said:

However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful—such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals—in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.—Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X), article 27, Weimar edition of Luther's Works, vol. 7, pp. 131, 132 (a point-by-point exposition of his position, written Dec. 1, 1520, in response to requests for a fuller treatment than that given in his Adversus execrabilem Antichristi Bullam, and Wider die Bulle des Endchrists).

Archdeacon Francis Blackburne states in his Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State, of 1765:

Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confuta-

[pg. 571]

tion of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment of his life.—Page 14.

In support, Blackburne has an extended Appendix section dealing with Luther's teaching as set forth in his writings, and discusses the charges and countercharges.*
Here follow certain of the leading witnesses of recent centuries, with Luther and Tyndale in some detail.

Sixteenth Century

MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator

'The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anything—see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.† Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep.‡ And the dead will remain asleep

*The Lutheran scholar Dr. T. A. Kantonen (The Christian Hope, 1594, p. 37), likewise referred to Luther's position in these words:
"Luther, with a greater emphasis on the resurrection, preferred to concentrate on the scriptural metaphor of sleep. For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him " we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death. ''We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, "Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment, and be with him forever.' "
†See "Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose" (1544), in Schriften, vol. 1, col. 1756; "Kirchen-Postille" (1528), in Schriften, vol. 11, col. 1143; Schriften, vol. 2, col. 1069; Deutsche Schriften (Erlangen ed.), vol. 11, p. 142ff.; vol. 41 (1525), p. 373.

‡ "Catechetische Schriften" (1542), In Schriften, vol. 11, pp. 287, 288.

[pg. 572]

until the day of resurrection.* which resurrection embraces both body and soul, when both will come together again.†
Here are sample Luther citations. In the quaint 1573 English translation we read:

Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when are awaked, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.—An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1553, folio 151v.
But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.—"Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, in Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp. 287, 288.
Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and

* "Auslegungen uber die Psalmen [3]" in 1533 in Schriften, vol. 4, pp. 323, 324.

†"Am Zweiten Sonntage nach Trinitatis," "Haus-Postille." in Schriften, vol. 13, col. 2153; "Predigt uber 1 Cor. 15: (54-57)," (1533), "Auslegung des neuen Testament," in Schriften, vol. 8, col. 1340.

[pg. 573]

nevertheless, he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way.*—"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol. 1, cols. 1759, 1760.

WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536), English Bible translator and martyr

In Britain William Tyndale, translator of the Bible into English, came to the defense of the revived

*In his Master of Arts thesis (1946), "A Study of Martin Luther's Teaching Concerning the State of the Dead," T. N. Ketola, tabulating Luther's references to death as a sleep—as found in Luther's Sammtliche Schriften, Walsh's Concordia, 1904 ed.—lists 125 specific Luther references to death as a sleep. Ketola cites another smaller group of references showing Luther believed in the periodic consciousness of some. But the main point is that, while the dead live, they are unconscious—which is stated some seven times.

[pg. 574]

teaching of conditional immortality. This, as well as other teachings, brought him into direct conflict with the papal champion, Sir Thomas More, likewise of England. In 1529 More had strongly objected to the "pestilential sect" represented by Tyndale and Luther, because they held that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday." In 1530 Tyndale responded vigorously, declaring:

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innate immortality.
Thus:

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.—lbid., p. 180.

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

[pg. 575]

And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.—Ibid., p. 118.

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says in slightly sarcastic vein:

"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection)—Ibid.

JOHN FRITH (1503-33), associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr
A Disputacyon of Purgatorie ... divided into three Bokes, c. 1530
An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;... and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God.—An Answer to John Fisher.

Source: Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine, copyright 1957 by the Review and Herald Publishing Association, pages 569-575.

LEO X 1513-1521

LATERAN COUNCIL V 1512--1517

Ecumenical XVIII (The Reform of the Church)
The Human Soul (against the Neo-Aristotelians)1
[From the Bull "Apostolici Regiminis" (Session VIII), Dec. 19, 1513]

Since in our days (and we painfully bring this up) the sower of cockle, ancient enemy of the human race, has dared to disseminate and advance in the field of the Lord a number of pernicious errors, always rejected by the faithful, especially concerning the nature of the rational soul, namely, that it is mortal, or one in all men, and some rashly philosophizing affirmed that this is true at least according to philosophy, in our desire to offer suitable remedies against a plague of this kind, with the approval of this holy Council, we condemn and reject all who assert that the intellectual soul is mortal, or is one in all men, and those who cast doubt on these truths, since it [the soul] is not only truly in itself and essentially the form of the human body, as was defined in the canon of Pope

1Msi XXXII 842 A; Hrd IX 1719 C f.; BR(T) 5, 601 b f.; MBR 1, 542 a f·; Bar(Th) ad 1513 n. 92 (31, 40 a f.);cf. Hfl VIII 585 f.

[pg. 238]

CLEMENT V our predecessor of happy memory published in the (general) Council of VIENNE but it is also multiple according to the multitude of bodies into which it is infused, multiplied, and to be multiplied. And since truth never contradicts truth, we declare every assertion contrary to the truth of illumined faith to be altogether false; and, that it may not be permitted to dogmatize otherwise, we strictly forbid it, and we decree that all who adhere to errors of this kind are to be shunned and to be punished as detestable and abominable infidels who disseminate most damnable heresies and who weaken the Catholic faith.

Source: The Sources of Catholic Dogma, Translated by Roy J. Deferrari, from the Thirtieth Edition of Henry Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum, published by B. Herder Book Co., Copyright 1957, pages 237, 238.

Psalm 27 said:

the dead will remember their sins against The Lord while in eternal torment.

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Might be a better plan if they did that while here.

If we're no longer on Earth then time has no relevance anyway. Time as we know it is only relevant because we orbit a star.

If Jesus comes back to Earth in the year 9021 then it makes no difference to me if I'm in the eternal kingdom. 'Eternal' surely means NO past or future. Not in the parameters that WE currently understand anyway...

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

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Yes I believe the dead in Christ are awake.

1) There are many reasons for that: verses out of the Book of Revelation that show elders in heaven, people who were martyred plead for those on Earth, The statement of Jesus to the thief on the cross, saint Paul mentioning the Great Cloud of Witnesses etc.



2) Verses that pertain to the soul "sleeping" I believe pertain to "bosom of Abraham" in Sheol, this places ended with Resurrection and Christ harrowing hell at the time of Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

Pavel Mosko said:

Yes I believe the dead in Christ are awake.

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Curious. Would it matter if they weren't?

Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality....

pretty hard to be conscious when cremated..?



ps.. Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

repent.. baby's cant (man made stuff)
baptism.. Greek immerse ,submerge ,dip etc full under ,symbol of burial.

receive the Holy Ghost ( Gods part ,real in your face 1st contact and makes his abode within you !) mark 16v16 ; acts 2v4 etc

IntriKate said:

I believe that when we die we are immediately present with God.

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What would go up with Jesus when the trumpet sounds if what you believe is true?

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

Click to expand...

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I'm curious what everyone believes about the dead and if they are conscious or if you believe they are sleep until the resurrection?

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns. So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

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If you read the story of resuscitation of Lazarus, Jesus makes it clear sleep is a euphemism for death.

The soul sleep doctrine is taught by JWs & SDAs.

If we are absent from the body & present with
the Lord, does that mean we are unconscious with the Lord? Isn't that an oxymoron?

' for me to live is Christ; to die is gain.' I cannot accept 'gain' refers to unconsciousness.

Oz

timothyu said:

Curious. Would it matter if they weren't?

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Do these passages matter?


Luke 23

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Revelation 4:10-11
New International Version

10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”



Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.



Hebrews 12:1
New International Version

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Pavel Mosko said:

Do these passages matter?

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Frankly people put too much emphasis on self interest and not enough on the good news that God will once again reign over man, instead of man over man.

timothyu said:

Frankly people put too much emphasis on self interest and not enough on the good news that God will once again reign over man, instead of man over man.

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Where do you get any of that from? Worst case of projection yet.


I don't get anything like that. I see this whole topic as Christ triumphing over Death. Death has no sting. We are alive in Christ and we are all one in Christ.