Do you believe the dead are conscious?

True Counterphobia said:

People argue for consciousness all the time. That would be one thing it could be.

Click to expand...

Consciousness of what? The whole point is to turn our attention away from self.

Jesus says to the brigand on the cross "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". This implies that he will be conscious because it wouldn't be paradise if he was asleep. As I understand it, "paradise" is heaven and the dead are fully conscious with Jesus in heaven until the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.

timothyu said:

Consciousness of what? The whole point is to turn our attention away from self.

Click to expand...

Not sure that follows. The whole point of what?

Hmm said:

Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise

Click to expand...

Or Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. There was no punctuation in the original.

True Counterphobia said:

The whole point of what?

Click to expand...

Of repentance

timothyu said:

Or Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. There was no punctuation in the original.

Click to expand...

My quote was from the NIV translation of Luke 23:43:
"Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Albion said:

Christian religious movements classified as 'cults' are not usually secret. You are thinking of a different use of that word.

Click to expand...

If not the short word for occult, then what is the problem with Christian cults? is that not what any denomination is?

Hmm said:

Jesus says to the brigand on the cross "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". This implies that he will be conscious because it wouldn't be paradise if he was asleep. As I understand it, "paradise" is heaven and the dead are fully conscious with Jesus in heaven until the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.

Click to expand...

It follows just as easily that the man would be asleep until becoming conscious with Jesus.

timothyu said:

Of repentance

Click to expand...

Well, that's true, but I don't think the point of death is necessarily repentance.

Hmm said:

My quote was from the NIV translation of Luke 23:43:

Click to expand...

Yes but the original text had no punctuation so one way of saying it is just as possible as the other, but would give an entirely different meaning. Guess whosoever agenda is in charge gets to claim authority in the matter.

True Counterphobia said:

but I don't think the point of death is necessarily repentance.

Click to expand...

Right we are to repent of the self serving ways of man in favour of the will of God long before we reach that point. It's not a game of last tag.

timothyu said:

Yes but the original text had no punctuation.

Click to expand...

I don't know Greek so I can't comment. I just checked the RSV and the punctuation is the same as the NIV so perhaps the issue is a disputed one?

IMO saying "Truly I say to you today,..." isn't very natural. Why would he add the word "today"? He's obviously speaking "today".

Hmm said:

so perhaps the issue is a disputed one?

Click to expand...

Tradition has gone on so long many forget there could be another meaning and the ruling doctrine become the winner again by tradition but not truth. Punctuation came later and punctuation can be used to twist scripture.

timothyu said:

Tradition has gone on so long many forget there could be another meaning and the ruling doctrine become the winner again by tradition but not truth. Punctuation came later.

Click to expand...

It shows you the power of a comma anyway!

Hmm said:

It shows you the power of a comma anyway!

Click to expand...

Right.. history can be rewritten

Hmm said:

Jesus says to the brigand on the cross "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". This implies that he will be conscious because it wouldn't be paradise if he was asleep. As I understand it, "paradise" is heaven and the dead are fully conscious with Jesus in heaven until the creation of the new heaven and the new earth.

Click to expand...

After He resurrected, He revealed that He had not yet ascended to the Father: thus the thief did not go with Him the day He died; therefore, the better reading is indeed, "Verily I say unto you today, that you will be with me in paradise."

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I read a book called are the dead alive now? Which says the dead are sleep until Jesus returns.

Click to expand...

I have read things like this in the Bible: Ezekiel 37, John 11:11, Luke 8:52.
Keep in mind that Jesus had not yet ascended at that time, and He also conquered sin and death when He died and rose again.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

So I just accepted that but recently I've had experiences that pretty much confirm to me that people are conscious pretty much instantly after they die. I don't really want to get too deep into those experiences but I'm wondering what you all believe?

Click to expand...

I don't know what you experienced, but please also do keep in mind that Satan comes like an angel of light.
I can't say yay or nay to anything because this requires deep study with God. All I ask is that you keep in mind the Truth about God and who He is.

timothyu said:

Right.. history can be rewritten

Click to expand...

yes, but the gospel is preserved in the hearts of His children.

Hmm said:

It shows you the power of a comma, anyway!

Click to expand...

Would have been different like this.

Religiot said:

If not the short word for occult, then what is the problem with Christian cults? is that not what any denomination is?

Click to expand...

The word once meant any devotional society or movement, such as what was called "the cult of the Virgin" during the Middle Ages. The reference is to the elaborate devotions directed at Mary, including special prayers, holidays, commemorations, ceremonies, religious artifacts, and so on. Nothing there that was unorthodox, if however eccentric.

But in more recent years, the word has been used to refer to Christian movements or church bodies that are further from religious orthodoxy than even heretical or schismatic groups. What word could possibly designate these 'further afield' types?

Cult came to be that term and a great deal of "cult watching," published books on the subject, and etc. have come out of it.

So what, in the eyes of the students of this phenomenon, marks such a barely-to-be-called-Christian group?

There are three generally agreed upon: 1) Denial of the Trinity, 2) use of some sort of "Scripture" other than the Bible and unique to the group, and 3) 'soul sleep,' i.e. denial of the immortality of the human spirit.

Can you think of any well-known (and certainly not secret) churches or denominations claiming to be Christian which fit the description by meeting at least one of the three points?