If they're going to believe anyway, why evangelize?

1an said:

Jesus did not teach warfare and we can find support away from the battlefield.
.

Click to expand...

The Lord in His inspired scripture does teach that we are in warfare.


Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
....
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. -- Ephesians 6

RDKirk said:

The Lord in His inspired scripture does teach that we are in warfare.


Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
....
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. -- Ephesians 6

Click to expand...

This is spiritual warfare. The verse does say our struggle is not against flesh and blood.
.

1an said:

This is spiritual warfare. The verse does say our struggle is not against flesh and blood.
.

Click to expand...

Yes. So what, exactly, are you talking about? I can't track where your comments are coming from or going to in relation to anything I've said.

RDKirk said:

Yes. So what, exactly, are you talking about? I can't track where your comments are coming from or going to in relation to anything I've said.

Click to expand...

We are Christians right, and Christians follow the teaching of Jesus, and He, for me at any rate is my Commanding Officer, so I like to talk about Jesus. That's all, nothing to worry about.

Mark Quayle said:

Both these posts assume a value to this life that simply does not exist. This life is not for this life, and is described in Scripture as a passing vapor.

In effect, timeless God has already accomplished the end of all things (and is very satisfied with what he has done). We just don't see it that way yet.

Meanwhile, he uses means to accomplish his ends during this temporal frame, eg. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, yet it didn't happen until Calvary; and the Elect are chosen from the foundation of the earth, yet they are lost until regenerated during this time-frame.

Click to expand...

You did not explain why we spend time here on earth only it is not significant and fits God’s plain. I see as being extremely significant for humans and significant enough for God to allow a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered to help humans.

Adam and Eve lacked one very important attribute which could keep them from sinning, but that attribute is something even God cannot gift them without their humbly accepting it of their own free will, let me explain:

Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults (which Adam and Eve showed themselves and us) to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man, which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So, God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow, of your own free will, God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

The Adam and Eve story helps us understand. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

Hell does nothing for the people going to hell, but that was their choice since they kept refusing to accept God’s help (forgiveness, Love, grace, mercy, charity) to the point they will never humbly accept. Hell does help some willing individuals to not put off their acceptance of God’s help.

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

Michael Collum said:

This is for discussion, thought it might be a good one.

Click to expand...

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14)

bling said:

You did not explain why we spend time here on earth only it is not significant and fits God’s plain. I see as being extremely significant for humans and significant enough for God to allow a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered to help humans.

Click to expand...

I don't think I said this temporal existence is not significant. I said it does not hold the value we ascribe to it. By that I don't even mean it doesn't hold AS MUCH value, but rather that what we consider of substance is not so much as we think it is.

This is a little bit like what we consider sin or trespass. We see injustice against God's given law, nature or humans. But what does God see? When one human, let's say, murders another, we are outraged at what one person did to another, and the effects it had on the immediate family, society, etc. But we have little concept what harm it did to God, yet, I am convinced, that is by far the bad of it.

bling said:

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow, of your own free will, God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Click to expand...

You kind of contradict yourself here. You say you can do nothing to help God, but then turn around and say what you said elsewhere, that you can "allow" God to help you. What is that but helping him to help you? Earlier, you even said, if I remember right, something to the effect that God even "cannot" do it if we don't allow him.

bling said:

Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love.

Click to expand...

Godly love is not (cannot be) a humanly derived ("free will" you call it) thing. To assume 'robotic' if not free will, is also a logical fail --robots are not willed beings, we are-- but not "free willed" as you would define it. But we do choose.

This is a little like the notion that choosing Christ must be done by free will. None of us are capable of a once-and-for-all-time choice. We haven't the integrity. Neither can we know what we are doing when we choose Christ --we haven't the intellect nor the knowledge to understand, though our hearts surge at what little we do know. Nor does our strength of will have the power to transform us from death to life.

When you say, "Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God." I would remind you that Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing."


The rest of your construction, the good and the bad, still present your POV that we humans operate independently of God. Particularly, you seem to think, the regenerated, the believer, is capable of a freedom from sin (and I agree) but on his own, independently of God (I vehemently disagree). How is there anything powerful about us, apart from the Son of God? Do you not know we will see ourselves finally as we already are, one with him?

In a temporal sense, we are not even yet complete beings, until we see him as he is. And then, we will know how dependent we are on him for our very existence, strength, intellect, integrity --our very being.

God will hold us accountable for our generation. We are all predestined for the judgement seat of Christ.

Paul4JC said:

God will hold us accountable for our generation. We are all predestined for the judgement seat of Christ.

Click to expand...

Agreed....

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. - Matthew 12

Mark Quayle said:

This is a little bit like what we consider sin or trespass. We see injustice against God's given law, nature or humans. But what does God see? When one human, let's say, murders another, we are outraged at what one person did to another, and the effects it had on the immediate family, society, etc. But we have little concept what harm it did to God, yet, I am convinced, that is by far the bad of it.

Click to expand...

Did God allow one human to murder another human?

What good can come from one human murdering another human, like the murder of Steven?

Mark Quayle said:

You kind of contradict yourself here. You say you can do nothing to help God, but then turn around and say what you said elsewhere, that you can "allow" God to help you. What is that but helping him to help you? Earlier, you even said, if I remember right, something to the effect that God even "cannot" do it if we don't allow him.

Click to expand...

God is the same glorious being if we accept or reject His charity. God is pleased when we humbly do accept His charity, but the offering of the charity unconditionally (whether we accept or not) is what makes the offer so glorious. Remember if we (the servant) do everything right perfectly we have just done the minimum and deserve nothing more or any praise. God is doing all the work and effort, while we just accept or reject, but it is the fool that rejects.

God cannot force us to accept His Godly Love as pure charity, since doing so would not be Loving on God’s part and it would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun and the “love” we did get that was force on us is not Godly type Love.

Mark Quayle said:

Godly love is not (cannot be) a humanly derived ("free will" you call it) thing. To assume 'robotic' if not free will, is also a logical fail --robots are not willed beings, we are-- but not "free willed" as you would define it. But we do choose.
This is a little like the notion that choosing Christ must be done by free will. None of us are capable of a once-and-for-all-time choice. We haven't the integrity. Neither can we know what we are doing when we choose Christ --we haven't the intellect nor the knowledge to understand, though our hearts surge at what little we do know. Nor does our strength of will have the power to transform us from death to life.

Click to expand...

That is not what I said at all!! I agree with you the unbelieving sinner does not have the Love to choose Christ at thus would not choose Christ, BUT the sinner does have the sinful selfishness to wimp out, give up on self and surrender to his hated enemy (God) and while he is still hating God he is for selfish reasons and of the believe his hated enemy just might extend to him undeserved pure charity and for selfish reason he is willing to accept pure that charity.

Mark Quayle said:

When you say, "Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God." I would remind you that Christ says, "Apart from me you can do nothing."

Click to expand...

God is not just “Loving” Himself, but we can have this Godly type Love which can allow us to Love Him.

Mark Quayle said:

The rest of your construction, the good and the bad, still present your POV that we humans operate independently of God. Particularly, you seem to think, the regenerated, the believer, is capable of a freedom from sin (and I agree) but on his own, independently of God (I vehemently disagree). How is there anything powerful about us, apart from the Son of God? Do you not know we will see ourselves finally as we already are, one with him?

Click to expand...

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit with power of Godly type Love. We are to be one with Christ as Christ is one with God (so that is really one). Christ had free will and we can exercise our free will with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love to avoid sinning in the future.

Mark Quayle said:

In a temporal sense, we are not even yet complete beings, until we see him as he is. And then, we will know how dependent we are on him for our very existence, strength, intellect, integrity --our very being.

Click to expand...

Not to sure what you are saying here. Christ’s pray is for us to be one, which appears to be now and not held off to heaven.

bling said:

That is not what I said at all!! I agree with you the unbelieving sinner does not have the Love to choose Christ at thus would not choose Christ, BUT the sinner does have the sinful selfishness to wimp out, give up on self and surrender to his hated enemy (God) and while he is still hating God he is for selfish reasons and of the believe his hated enemy just might extend to him undeserved pure charity and for selfish reason he is willing to accept pure that charity.

Click to expand...

There's an interesting construction --unusual! Kudos.

bling said:

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit with power of Godly type Love. We are to be one with Christ as Christ is one with God (so that is really one). Christ had free will and we can exercise our free will with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love to avoid sinning in the future.

Click to expand...

How does being one with Christ as he is with the Father extrapolate logically to we have free will?

The indwelling Spirit of God does indeed have everything to do with this unity but it does NOT make us independently capable apart from Christ. Just the opposite!

Mark Quayle said:

How does being one with Christ as he is with the Father extrapolate logically to we have free will?

Click to expand...

I am not trying to extrapolate the oneness we are to have to show we have free will. Free will is needed to obtain Godly type Love (to choose to accept Love in the form of forgiveness as a pure undeserving gift).

Those who humbly accept the charity of forgiveness for an unbelievable huge debt created by their sins will automatically be given an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) from Jesus’ teaching “he that is forgiven much Loves much”. That Love is needed to become one with Christ and that choice to accept has to be a free will choice made by the sinner.

Mark Quayle said:

The indwelling Spirit of God does indeed have everything to do with this unity but it does NOT make us independently capable apart from Christ. Just the opposite!

Click to expand...

the problem is we still have free will to quench the Spirit and go again on our own. We allow the Spirit to do in and through us all kinds of wonderful stuff.

1an said:

I was not contradicting you. You spoke of spreading the gospel, which imo is so very important and I was talking about its importance and some of the pitfalls. I did actually agree with you and was wanting to go deeper into the subject. I am sorry if I upset you.
.

Click to expand...

No worries here. I was just confused about your overall position in relation to my own post. Thanks for clarifying!

Michael Collum said:

I was thinking on this, just now - in terms of the modern notion of predestination, people who are going to believe will believe anyway - so what need is there for spreading the message?

Also share stories of people "believing anyway" in areas without biblical teaching or resources.

This is for discussion, thought it might be a good one.

Click to expand...

Because God and the apostles commanded it and its how God reaches the saved.

Well there are people who don’t know the true Jesus, maybe their views of Him were tainted by other religions or unbelievers. Maybe you have been called to do so so that a certain person can soften their heart and finally accept Jesus. Maybe someone needs to hear it as a confirmation or maybe it really is the first time they are hearing about the gospel. People in this thread mention that they don’t know anyone who doesn’t know Christ, but as a South African I know so many people who don’t. Only the westerners were really raised knowing Christ, there are billions of people who do not know Him.

Michael Collum said:

I was thinking on this, just now - in terms of the modern notion of predestination, people who are going to believe will believe anyway - so what need is there for spreading the message?

Also share stories of people "believing anyway" in areas without biblical teaching or resources.

This is for discussion, thought it might be a good one.

Click to expand...

Because your personal testimony is powerful. Your faith is powerful and sometimes when people see anothers passion for Christ, that is what they have been searching for their whole lives, and have tried everything. You talk to them, and plant that seed. They may have a stubborn response to you and you won't see it then and there but later on your passion will cross their minds and the Holy Spirit will work on them and they will decide to find out more about Jesus. They might drive by a church during the week and see one car in the parking lot and knock on the office door and get to meet the Pastor who welcomes them and greets them and invites them to church on Sunday and the rest is history. It all started with you planting that good seed and it will bear fruit.