ARE ALL THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT?

HIM · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
These are moral laws, not to mentioned those are addressed before law in various accounts. The sabbath law is a ceremonial law and there is no support for it being observed before the law.

Who says?
Adam and Eve were made in and His image and likeness. So if they were created on the 6th day in His image and likeness. What did they do on the 7th?
Did they ignore the likeness and image in which they were made and desecrate the day God had set apart and at the very time HE was resting from all His works?

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

imge said:
Well you do not have to value the only scripture in the entire Bible that is both written and spoken by God, but I do. God made a point to separate His laws by writing it with His own finger. Are you saying the only scripture written by God should not be important or special? That is your choice, but if the point of the Bible is to learn about God, I think what He writes and commands for us should be extra special.

imge said:
Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God defined His commandments and how they are referenced to in His 2nd commandment found in Exodus 20

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Read verse 6. God shows mercy to thousands who keep My commandments. He gave us this very clear verse so we know how His commandments are referenced throughout the Bible.

I value the sabbath and I never said I didn't. you are conflating a lot of things into a requirement that is silent in the new covenant where there was ample opportunity to teach on it. The OT is full of imagery that points to the new covenent. The sabbath very clearly points to Christ where Christ offers his sabbath to us. Sabbath is restored relationship with God, and just as Adam was sent away from the Garden to toil and work over the soil Sabbath is an opportunity to return to the Garden as we rest from the toil and burden of the curse of sin. We value sabbath becasue God rested on the 7th day, this is true but God especially God created sabbath for us, not for him. Christ offers it saying "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest". What rest does Christ offer us? Physical rest? or is it something more? What rest does the 4th commandment speak of? Physical rest? Christ can give it because it's his to give (he was there with the first Sabbath). I not only value sabbath I long for it.

imge said:
Circumcision is not part of Gods commandments. Paul made a point of separating that and showing us what is important:

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God is what matters.
1 Corinthians 7:19

In the end His commandments will separate us according to the scriptures

circumcision is a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Isreal and explicitly physical circumcision, yet Paul shows us the form of circumcision is nothing. Sabbath is also a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Israel.... do you see where I'm going?

Sabbath law itself is conditional as before law scripture does not value keeping sabbath law but it is quite explicit about keeping other pre-law things like sacrificial offerings. Because scripture is slient on it, it does not value it enough to speak of it so there is a 2500 year gap where the Sabbath had a different value then after the law. We are now 2000 years since Christ and is it so hard to accept that the Sabbath again is valued in new revelation?

When you say "Circumcision is not part of Gods commandments" you mean to say it is not part of the 10 Commandments but rather you are using this term "commandments" to use scripture to point back to the 10 commandments which cannot be supported. we need to accept the word "commandments" in the frame it is uttered in. We can't allow our bais to affect how we interpret words presented in scripture. "commandments" is a contextual word and needs to be understood in the frame it is spoken in and not a portal back to where you think it should go. Christ explicitly tells us which is the greatest commandment and it's not one of the 10 so why do you jump to the 10 and not the commandment Christ tells us is the greatest when you see the word "commandment"?

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

HIM said:
Who says?
Adam and Eve were made in and His image and likeness. So if they were created on the 6th day in His image and likeness. What did they do on the 7th?
Did they ignore the likeness and image in which they were made and desecrate the day God had set apart and at the very time HE was resting from all His works?

what does scripture tell you? or are you trying to fill in the blanks and put in what you think it should have said?

SabbathBlessings · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I value the sabbath and I never said I didn't. you are conflating a lot of things into a requirement that is silent in the new covenant where there was ample opportunity to teach on it. The OT is full of imagery that points to the new covenent. The sabbath very clearly points to Christ where Christ offers his sabbath to us. Sabbath is restored relationship with God, and just as Adam was sent away from the Garden to toil and work over the soil Sabbath is an opportunity to return to the Garden as we rest from the toil and burden of the curse of sin. We value sabbath becasue God rested on the 7th day, this is true but God especially God created sabbath for us, not for him. Christ offers it saying "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest". What rest does Christ offer us? Physical rest? or is it something more? What rest does the 4th commandment speak of? Physical rest? Christ can give it because it's his to give (he was there with the first Sabbath). I not only value sabbath I long for it.

circumcision is a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Isreal and explicitly physical circumcision, yet Paul shows us the form of circumcision is nothing. Sabbath is also a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Israel.... do you see where I'm going?

Sabbath law itself is conditional as before law scripture does not value keeping sabbath law but it is quite explicit about keeping other pre-law things like sacrificial offerings. Because scripture is slient on it, it does not value it enough to speak of it so there is a 2500 year gap where the Sabbath had a different value then after the law. We are now 2000 years since Christ and is it so hard to accept that the Sabbath again is valued in new revelation?

When you say "Circumcision is not part of Gods commandments" you mean to say it is not part of the 10 Commandments but rather you are using this term "commandments" to use scripture to point back to the 10 commandments which cannot be supported. we need to accept the word "commandments" in the frame it is uttered in. We can't allow our bais to affect how we interpret words presented in scripture. "commandments" is a contextual word and needs to be understood in the frame it is spoken in and not a portal back to where you think it should go. Christ explicitly tells us which is the greatest commandment and it's not one of the 10 so why do you jump to the 10 and not the commandment Christ tells us is the greatest when you see the word "commandment"?

What you are referencing is that God contradicts Himself. God clearly said He is unchanging. Hebrew 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. His commandment are the same in the old covenant as the they are in the new but magnified Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It doesn't say I will write 9 of my 10 laws in our hearts and minds nor does it say I will write all the laws except the 4th commandment, the one I asked you to REMEMBER, now you should forget. How confusing would that be, especially when Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16; 23:54, 56; 24:1) and on the New Earth we will be worshipping Him every Sabbath. Isaiah 66:23

The greatest commandments that Jesus references are the 10 commandments- The first 4 is how we are to show God our love and the last 6 how we are to love our neighbor hence the two tablets of stone. Jesus clearly kept His father commandments and instructed us to do so too. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

You are free to believe what you want and can make 101 reasons to believe what you wish, but if God asked us to keep His seventh day Holy, the only commandment He started with the word "Remember" I will take Him for His Word He is unchanging and "Remember" is the opposite of forget.

We are probably going to have to agree to disagree.

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

imge said:
What you are referencing is that God contradicts Himself. God clearly said He is unchanging. Hebrew 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. His commandment are the same in the old covenant as the they are in the new but magnified Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It doesn't say I will write 9 of my 10 laws in our hearts and minds nor does it say I will write all the laws except the 4th commandment, the one I asked you to REMEMBER, now you should forget. How confusing would that be, especially when Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16; 23:54, 56; 24:1) and on the New Earth we will be worshipping Him every Sabbath. Isaiah 66:23

The greatest commandments that Jesus references are the 10 commandments- The first 4 is how we are to show God our love and the last 6 how we are to love our neighbor hence the two tablets of stone. Jesus clearly kept His father commandments and instructed us to do so too. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

You are free to believe what you want and can make 101 reasons to believe what you wish, but if God asked us to keep His seventh day Holy, the only commandment He started with the word "Remember" I will take Him for His Word He is unchanging and "Remember" is the opposite of forget.

We are probably going to have to agree to disagree.

You're making a lot of jumps straight to the 10 commandments and not reading what the text actually says. Christ says "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." But you would rather change his words and say what he really ment was the 10 commandments not "all the law and prophets". You are continually conflating "commandments" with the 10 commandments with no support to do so like it's a blinder for you. Devotional studies of how the 10 commandments fit into these are isolated studies, where are your studies of all the law and the prophets?

God is not contradicting himself. If you accept physical circumsion is an everlasting covenant yet do not practice or require physical circumsion because of NT teaching then is God contradicting himself? I don't see scripture as only 1 dimensional and it may be possible I value the everlasting covenant of circumcision without valuing the physical act. Is the Sabbath also only 1 dimensional?

The sabbath (day) is now over for me. What did I do? I rested and my kids rested. I work from home but I chose to not work today but I recognize that these things in themselves are hollow and meaningless just as Paul speaks about circumcision. I may have gained physical rest but those actions did not give me spiritual rest as only Christ can do that for me and it doesn't matter how good I can do it, in the end it is not my attempt at rest that gives me the rest that I seek, it is only through Christ.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
These (9 commandments except the Sabbath) are moral laws, not to mentioned those are addressed before law in various accounts. The sabbath law is a ceremonial law and there is no support for it being observed before the law.

Responded with...

LoveGodsWord said:
Your wrong. All of Gods 10 commandments are "moral laws" as they are the standard of right doing if obeyed (moral) and sin (wrong doing) if disobeyed. Go look up the word moral.

Your response...

DamianWarS said:
Just saying im wrong doesn't make me wrong. This is just bullying. You need to logically make a case and this post is not following logic it's following personal bias. The sabbath is ceremonial because the action is only valid one day a week (hence ceremonial) and the counter-action is not innatly wrong (moral code) and may freely be practiced on all other days. Something that is morally objective is valid all the time not just on special days. If we are to call the Sabbath moral code then why isn't there a single example before the law of it being kept? Pre-law sacrifices are observed but keeping the Sabbath is not supported pre law.

Responded with...

LoveGodsWord said:
I made a case, you ignored it. All of Gods 10 commandments are "moral laws" as they are the standard of right doing if obeyed (moral) *Psalms 119:172 and sin (wrong doing) if disobeyed *1 John 3:4. Go look up the word moral. Late my time now but I will be back latter to address some other posts of yours with scripture that are also wrong latter. All you did was quote you saying God's 4th commandment is a ceremonial law. (scripture please?)

Your response again...

DamianWarS said:
You stated your opinion, where are your sources?

Again I did not post an opinion I posted scripture showing that all of God's 10 commandments are the standard of right doing. The very definition of "moral" or moral laws are laws of right doing. The Hebrew or Greek words for righteousness of righteous means right doing or "moral" I posted scripture that says in Psalms 119:172 All God's commandments are righteousness (moral right doing). You simply posted your opinion that God's 4th commandment is a ceremonial law.

Here let's show more detail in definitions to moral and scripture support if it might help the conversation...

Websters 1828 dictionary

MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]
1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined. The word however may be applied to actions which affect only, or primarily and principally, a person's own happiness. Keep at the least within the compass of moral actions, which have in them vice or virtue. Mankind is broken loose from moral bands.

2. Subject to the moral law and capable of moral actions; bound to perform social duties; as a moral agent or being.

3. Supported by the evidence of reason or probability; founded on experience of the ordinary course of things; as moral certainty, distinguished from physical or mathematical certainty or demonstration.

Physical and mathematical certainty may be stiled infallible, and moral certainty may be properly stiled indubitable.

Things of a moral nature may be proved by moral arguments.

4. Conformed to rules of right, or to the divine law respecting social duties; virtuous; just; as when we say, a particular action is not moral.

5. Conformed to law and right in exterior deportment; as, he leads a good moral life.

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As shown above through the scriptures RIGHTEOUSNESS means MORAL RIGHT DOING linked to action. "All of God's commandments are righteousness" *Psalms 119:172.

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Let's show it in further detail from the bible....

GOD'S 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE ALL MORAL LAWS ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE.

All of God's 10 commandments including God's 4th commandment Sabbath are moral laws and our duty of love to God and our fellow man.

Let's look at what the scriptures teach on this subject further....

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.< tsedeq RIGHT DOING - MORAL>

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is defined as the standard of MORAL RIGHT in the Hebrew which God’s Word defines as ALL GOD’S COMMANDMENTS. This of course includes God’s 4th commandment which is one of God’s 10 commandments written with the finger of God.

The opposite of righteousness is unrighteousness as shown in this scripture here…

1 JOHN 5:17-18 [17] ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not to death.
[18], WE KNOW THAT WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in HEBREW (H5766) עול עול עולה עולה עלה ;‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh From H5765; MORAL EVIL: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in GREEK (G93) ἀδικία; adikia (legal) injustice (properly the quality, by implication the act); MORAL WRONGFULNESS of charater, life or act: - iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.

ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (ἀδικία Moral wrongfulness) IS SIN which is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments. UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is the opposite of RIGHTEOUSNESS and ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is SIN *1 JOHN 5:17 and SIN is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 then RIGHTEOUSNESS is OBEDIENCE to God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) as is why it is written;

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE *RIGHTEOUSNESS.<Moral Right Doing>

ROMANS 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does GOOD (good G5544) no, not one.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G5544
GOOD χρηστότης; chrēstotēs From G5543; usefulness, that is, MORAL EXCELLENCE in character or demeanor: - gentleness, good (-ness), kindness.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil companionship corrupt GOOD MORALS (G2239)

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2239
ἦθος; ēthos A strengthened form of G1485; usage, that is, (plural) MORAL HABITS: - manners

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CONCLUSIONS: All God's commandments are moral laws. God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures are all moral laws because they give us the knowledge of GOOD (moral right doing = righteousness) and EVIL (moral wrong doing = unrighteousness); SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (scripture support Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. God's 4th commandment being one of God's 10 commandments agrees with Psalms 119:172 that states "ALL GOD'S COMMANDMENT ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS <standard for Moral right doing> is therefore a moral law of our duty of love to God. So here we go sources provided, did it make any difference?

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Now let's go through your arguments

DamianWarS said:
The sabbath is ceremonial because the action is only valid one day a week (hence ceremonial) and the counter-action is not innatly wrong (moral code) and may freely be practiced on all other days.

Wrong but let's show why from the scriptures by seeing what God's 4th commandment actually says...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> [Because JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day] [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God [This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK]: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

The reason for the Sabbath Commandment is to "REMEMBER" the God of creation. He rested on the SEVENTH DAY of the WEEK, BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK and made it a HOLY DAY that no work is to be done. v11 Refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 and the origin of the Sabbath. v8 shows that this commandment is a "MEMORIAL" of creation v11 [the reason for the 4th commandment]. So the reason why Gods' 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath is practiced once a week is that it is a "memorial of creation" and a celebration of God as the creator of Heaven and earth.

So God's 4th commandment not only being a "moral law" as already proven through the scriptures above and English, Hebrew and Greek word definitions, the 4th commandment is also a "memorial law" where we are to remember God as our creator of all things in Heaven and earth. So no dear friend you are wrong. Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath is not a "ceremonial law".

Lets now look at the definition of ceremonial law..

WEBSTERS 1828 DICTIONARY

CEREMONIAL, a. [See Ceremony.]

1. Relating to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law.

2. Formal; observant of old forms; exact; precise in manners.

[In this sense, ceremonious is now used.]

CEREMONIAL, n.

1. Outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law or established by custom, whether in religious worship, in social intercourse, or in the courts of princes.

2. The order for rites and forms in the Romish church

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As can be shown in the definition of ceremonial this definition does not fit the scriptures of God's 4th commandment as there is simply no single way to remember God's creation and celebrate God as the creator of heaven and earth.

Secondly as shown through the scriptures already above in Exodus 20:8-11 God's 4th commandment cannot be freely practiced on other days of the week. God's 4th commandment is specifically tied only to the "seventh day" *Exodus 20:10 of the week as a memorial of creation where God blessed the "seventh day" at the end of creation and set aside the "seventh day" for all mankind *Mark 2:27 as a "holy day of rest" *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11.

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CONCLUSIONS: All of God's 10 commandments are moral laws including God's 4th commandment which is our duty of right doing and love to God for all those who believe and follow Gods Word.

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I did not cite scripture but that is no reason to say it is not based on scripture. If you're confused I can go chapter and verse if you desire.

Scriptures, chapter and verses please, as posted earlier you did not provide any and neither have you addressed any of the scriptures that disagree with your teachings.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
I value the sabbath and I never said I didn't.

You say here you value the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment yet in your actions you do not keep the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment and have come to the Sabbath and law forum to argue against keeping it. So how does your statement here agree with your actions when Jesus says by their fruits you shall know them or what John says in 1 John 2:3-4 when he says those who claim to be from God and do not keep His commandments are not telling the truth? This is an honest question here not an accusation, as I genuinely do not understand your statement here.

DamianWarS said:
You are conflating a lot of things into a requirement that is silent in the new covenant where there was ample opportunity to teach on it.

Well that statement is not true at all but lets show why from the scriptures again. You claim here that the covenant or new testament scriptures are silent in regards to the Sabbath? Seriously?

Let's look at what the new covenant says in regards to the Sabbath...

NEW TESTAMENT REFERENCES: "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matthew 12:8; Luke 6:5) [So the Sabbath is the TRUE Lord's Day]

it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. (Matthew 12:12)

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. (Matthew 24:20)

they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he (Jesus) entered into the synagogue, and taught. (Mark 1:21)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28) [Notice: The Sabbath is NOT just for Jews, or Israelites, or Hebrews, or Semites (descendants of Shem), but FOR ALL MANKIND]

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach (Mark 6:2)

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day (Luke 4:16)

(Jesus) taught them on the sabbath days. (Luke 4:31)

AFTER JESUS' DEATH, HIS DISCIPLES OBSERVED THE SABBATH:

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:55-56) [ This occured after Jesus' death obviously, which is when the false teachers claim the law was done away. They say the law was "nailed to the cross", but His disciples obviously didn't believe that, as we see here, they "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment"]

when they (the apostles) departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day." (Acts 13:14)

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." (Acts 13:42) [Notice: the Gentiles (non-jews) wanted to hear the word of God on the next Sabbath. Paul DID NOT tell them, "Come back tomorrow, the first day of the week, because that's the day us Christians keep." He had them return the following SABBATH]

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. (Acts 13:44)

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (Acts 15:21)

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made. (Acts 16:13)

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. (Acts 17:2)

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (Acts 18:4)

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. (Hebrews 4:4) [See Ephesians 5:1 where it states that we are to be imitators of God.]

There remaineth therefore a SABBATH Rest [See margin: Greek word is "Sabbatismos" which means "Sabbath-keeping"] to the people of God." (Hebrews 4:9)

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 66:22-23) [I realize this is an OT scripture, BUT as you can clearly see here, this is dealing with the NEW heavens and earth (after Christ's return) and it states that ALL shall keep the Sabbath then.

It seems quite preposterous, that God would give the seventh day Sabbath to mankind at creation (Genesis 2:1-3), re-introduce it to Israel BEFORE Sinai - after they lost sight of it in captivity (Exodus 16:4-23; 27-29), codify it at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-17) having all His people observe it, including Christ, then change it to Sunday, just to change it back to Friday sunset - Saturday sunset.

Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH

Seems God's Word disagrees with you here dear friend.

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
The OT is full of imagery that points to the new covenent. The sabbath very clearly points to Christ where Christ offers his sabbath to us. Sabbath is restored relationship with God, and just as Adam was sent away from the Garden to toil and work over the soil Sabbath is an opportunity to return to the Garden as we rest from the toil and burden of the curse of sin. We value sabbath becasue God rested on the 7th day, this is true but God especially God created sabbath for us, not for him. Christ offers it saying "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest". What rest does Christ offer us? Physical rest? or is it something more? What rest does the 4th commandment speak of? Physical rest? Christ can give it because it's his to give (he was there with the first Sabbath). I not only value sabbath I long for it.

What you have provided above dear friend is unbiblical and is not based on the scriptures, but I would like to prove why from the scriptures only as a help. Your argument here and claim is that Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is a "shadow law" fulfilled in Christ and that Christ is now our "sabbath" right? This is wrong on so many levels according to the scriptures but let's show why as it might be helpful here if not for you perhaps for others who might be reading along.

There of course were annual ceremonial shadow sabbath laws from the Mosaic book of the old covenant *Exodus 24:7 that were connected directly to the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 that were not God's 4th commandment but were connected to the annual Feast days that outlined God's plan of salvation for mankind. These annual "shadow" sabbaths unlike God's 4th commandment made at creation that falls on every "seventh day" of the week *Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11 could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle. For example these yearly "shadow" sabbaths included (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36 (sabbaths plural to sabbaton in Colossians 2:16-17; also called high sabbaths if they fall on the same day as a weekly sabbath *John 19:31).

These ceremonial yearly "shadow" sabbaths connected to the feast days were not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. They were a part of the annual feast days and were yearly sabbaths (plural) connected to the feasts and not a particular day of the week like God's 4th commandment. The Feast days were shadow laws that were prophetic in nature, outlining God's plan of salvation from sin for all mankind. For example in the new testament the Passover and feast of leaven bread represents JESUS as the lamb slain *1 Corinthians 5:6-7; John 6:35. The Feast of First Fruits represents the first of those resurrected from the dead with Christ *1 Corinthians 15:20; Luke 22:20; The Feast of Weeks or Pentecost from Leviticus 23 representing *Acts of the Apostles 14; Matthew 9:37; Feast of Trumpets preparation call for the Day of Atonement 1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians. 4-16 and cleansing of sin *Leviticus 23:24-32; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 representing Christs work on our behalf prior to the second coming and cleansing from sin in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands for God's salvation from sin for mankind etc...

LETS GET TO THE POINT!

All of the annual ceremonial annual sabbaths are ordinances connected to Feast days of Leviticus 23. They are not God's 4th commandment weekly Sabbath that falls every "seventh day of the week" of God's 4th commandment and are yearly connected directly to the annual Feast days each of which were prophetic “shadow laws” in nature pointing out God's plan of salvation for all mankind which was their purpose.

Now God's 4th commandment has it's origin at creation *Genesis 2:1-3. Now why is this important one might ask? It is very important because as shown above there is a difference between Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments made on the "seventh day" of the creation week and the annual ceremonial sabbaths connected to the Feast days. The Feast days and Feast sabbaths were shadows of things to come fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation for the sins of the world in the new covenant and God's work on our behalf for sin in the heavenly sanctuary.

Note: God's Sabbath created at creation *Genesis 2:1-3 was made when mankind was in perfect harmony with God. There was no sin when God created the Sabbath for mankind. JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for man *Mark 2:27. There was only Adam and Eve present when God made the Sabbath for mankind *Genesis 2:1-3. There was NO SIN so NO plan of salvation for sin given as it was not needed. No Feast days, no ceremonial sabbaths no plan of salvation and no sin.

It is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" as all the shadow laws point forward to Christ and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. There was no plan of salvation and no sin when the Sabbath was made for mankind (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3). God's 4th commandment is a moral law and our duty of Love to God. It is a part of the "finished" work of creation that is a "memorial of God as the creator of heaven and earth"; "REMEMBER" the Sabbath day to keep it holy *Exodus 20:8 so it points "backwards" not "forwards" as the shadow laws do.

So in summary according to Gods' Word it is impossible for Gods 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" and Jesus

1. God's Sabbath was made "before" sin and before the laws and Gods' plan of salvation was given to all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

2. According to the scriptures the Sabbath was made for mankind when mankind was in perfect harmony with their creator and sinless and walked and talked with God face to face. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the seventh day *Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3 and Mark 2:27 of creation where God blessed the "seventh day" of creation and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind.

3. God's Sabbath is a part of the "finished work of creation" it is day seven of a seven day week that God blessed and made a holy day of rest for all man *Genesis 2:1-3

4. God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments points "backwards" to the finished work of creation, not "forwards" to things to come. For example God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments starts off as "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY" (memorial - remember) - Exodus 20:8. God's 4th commandment therefore is a "memorial" of the "finished work of creation" this is also shown when it is written " [10], But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God" and also the reason for the memorial commandment that points backward to the "finished work of creation" as further evidence is given in "v11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

5. There was no JEW, there was no ISRAEL and there was no Moses when God made the "seventh" day Sabbath rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. Jesus is Lord and creator of the Sabbath and he commands his people to keep it as a memorial of the finished work of creation and a holy day rest and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth *Mark 2:28; Exodus 20:8-11; James 2:10-11; Hebrews 4:9

6. Shadow laws point "forward" to things to come God's 4th commandment points backwards as a "memorial" to things completed which the Sabbath and God's 4th commandments points back to.

7. JESUS is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath and kept it as a holy day of rest and taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath the way he intended it to be kept.

8. The Sabbath will continue to be kept after the second coming in the new heavens and new earth. *Isaiah 66:22-23.

9. The Sabbath in scripture is only defined as the "seventh day of the week" in Exodus 20:10

10. To say Jesus is the Sabbath is not supported by scripture and according to Genesis 2:1-3 means Jesus created himself, blessed himself and made himself a holy day which makes no sense.

The above scriptural evidence is provided to prove that it is impossible and not biblical to claim that God's 4th commandment Sabbath is a shadow of anything because it was made before sin and before Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind and before any "shadow laws" which were a part of God's plan of salvation were ever written. Mankind was sinless when God made the Sabbath for me *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. God does not change his laws so that we are free to break them.

DamianWarS said:
circumcision is a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Isreal and explicitly physical circumcision, yet Paul shows us the form of circumcision is nothing. Sabbath is also a sign of God's everlasting covenant with Israel.... do you see where I'm going?

You have provided your opinion but let's add all the scriptures back in. It is true that the old covenant is based on many "shadow laws" in the flesh that point to the new covenant based on the Spirit. Circumcision was one of those "shadow laws" of the flesh that represented things to come in the new covenant as an everlasting covenant *Genesis 17:1-7. God's ISRAEL were also those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham in the old covenant but in the new covenant God's ISRAEL are all those who believe God's Word and are born of the Spirit *Romans 9:6-8 etc.

"Circumcision" is a shadow law of the old covenant of the flesh pointing to a new heart by faith through the Spirit. It is fulfilled and continued as an everlasting covenant under the new covenant promises of God. (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4; 1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 6:15; Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11; Colossians 3:11). Gods salvation is from sin (breaking Gods' law) not continuing to live in sin (breaking God's law). Those who continue to live in sin will receive the wages of sin *Romans 6:23 because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispute to the Spirit of God's grace *Hebrews 10:26-31.

The Sabbath is a sign not the same as "circumcision" according to the scriptures because as shown earlier it is not a "shadow law" pointing to things to come but a memorial law pointing backwards to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:8-11; Genesis 2:1-3. There was no sin, no plan of salvation (shadow laws) no Moses, no Jews, No Israel only sinless mankind when God made the Sabbath for man who walked and talked with God before the fall. The Sabbath is a sign *Ezekiel 20:12 that it is God that sanctifies His people that means that the Sabbath is a sign of those who are truly God's people and those who believe and follow Gods' Word.

DamianWarS said:
Sabbath law itself is conditional as before law scripture does not value keeping sabbath law but it is quite explicit about keeping other pre-law things like sacrificial offerings. Because scripture is slient on it, it does not value it enough to speak of it so there is a 2500 year gap where the Sabbath had a different value then after the law. We are now 2000 years since Christ and is it so hard to accept that the Sabbath again is valued in new revelation?

That is not true please read together Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16. God's people had Gods Sabbath since Genesis 2:1-3 when God made it for mankind *Mark 2:27. God's 10 commandments in the written law was not given until Exodus 20. See also Genesis 26:5. Before the written Word of God was the spoken Word of God.

Hope this helps

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
You're making a lot of jumps straight to the 10 commandments and not reading what the text actually says. Christ says "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." But you would rather change his words and say what he really ment was the 10 commandments not "all the law and prophets". You are continually conflating "commandments" with the 10 commandments with no support to do so like it's a blinder for you. Devotional studies of how the 10 commandments fit into these are isolated studies, where are your studies of all the law and the prophets?

God is not contradicting himself. If you accept physical circumsion is an everlasting covenant yet do not practice or require physical circumsion because of NT teaching then is God contradicting himself? I don't see scripture as only 1 dimensional and it may be possible I value the everlasting covenant of circumcision without valuing the physical act. Is the Sabbath also only 1 dimensional?

The sabbath (day) is now over for me. What did I do? I rested and my kids rested. I work from home but I chose to not work today but I recognize that these things in themselves are hollow and meaningless just as Paul speaks about circumcision. I may have gained physical rest but those actions did not give me spiritual rest as only Christ can do that for me and it doesn't matter how good I can do it, in the end it is not my attempt at rest that gives me the rest that I seek, it is only through Christ.

All the law and the prophets includes Gods' 10 commandments does it not and God's 4th commandment? Love is expressed through Gods' 10 commandments as the 10 commandments are God's moral laws (scripture support here) of right doing and how we love God and our fellow man. (see Romans 13:8-10 and James 2:8-12).

LoveGodsWord · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
God is not contradicting himself. If you accept physical circumsion is an everlasting covenant yet do not practice or require physical circumsion because of NT teaching then is God contradicting himself? I don't see scripture as only 1 dimensional and it may be possible I value the everlasting covenant of circumcision without valuing the physical act. Is the Sabbath also only 1 dimensional?

Your mistaken dear friend in your thinking to God's 4th commandment being a "shadow law". As shown earlier from the scriptures it is impossible for the Sabbath to be a "shadow law" (scripture support already provided here) as it is a "memorial" that points backward not forward to thing to come to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:8-11; Genesis 2:1-3. The "shadow law" of "circumcision" is still an everlasting covenant fulfilled and continued in the new covenant. "Circumcision" is a shadow law of the old covenant of the flesh pointing to a new heart by faith through the Spirit. It is fulfilled and continued as an everlasting covenant under the new covenant based on better promises promises from God. (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4; 1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 6:15; Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11; Colossians 3:11).

HIM · Jan 30, 2021

HIM said: ↑
Who says?
Adam and Eve were made in and His image and likeness. So if they were created on the 6th day in His image and likeness. What did they do on the 7th?
Did they ignore the likeness and image in which they were made and desecrate the day God had set apart and at the very time HE was resting from all His works?

DamianWarS said:
what does scripture tell you? or are you trying to fill in the blanks and put in what you think it should have said?

That they were one with God being made in His image and likeness.
So with that, it is an easier deduction to say they kept the Sabbath rather than to assume they did not.
It is amazing that one would think God had Sanctified and made the 7th Holy for himself at the beginning.
For what? So a Holy God would have a reminder that the 7th is sanctified and to be kept holy?

HIM · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said: ↑
I value the sabbath and I never said I didn't.

LoveGodsWord said:
You say here you value the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment yet in your actions you do not keep the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment and have come to the Sabbath and law forum to argue against keeping it. So how does your statement here agree with your actions when Jesus says by their fruits you shall know them or what John says in 1 John 2:3-4 when he says those who claim to be from God and do not keep His commandments are not telling the truth? This is an honest question as I do not understand your statement here.

Happy Sabbath brother,
I thought about addressing his statement here but could not think of a way that did not violate the Forum rules.
It is a shame he can not see the contradiction between this post and the others. Quite transparent really.
Your whole post was spot on. Keep the faith and God Bless.

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

HIM said:
That they were one with God being made in His image and likeness.
So with that, it is an easier deduction to say they kept the Sabbath rather than to assume they did not.
It is amazing that one would think God had Sanctified and made the 7th Holy for himself at the beginning.
For what? So a Holy God would have a reminder that the 7th is sanctified and to be kept holy?

The first occurrence of Sabbath is in verb (Strongs 7673) from for when God "rested". But of course, God doesn't need to rest and the word can also be translated as ending, stopping or ceasing and this is the focus in the context of the 7th day, God ceased the former 6 days off creation. It is not "rest" in context it is matter-of-factly presented that God ceased and the next thing we know on the subject is 2500 years later.

To insert something else in the text to support your thinking is an irresponsible way of interpreting scripture and full of bias. the point is not if they kept the sabbath or not which cannot be supported, the point is it's not important enough to bring it up. the proper noun for Sabbath (Strongs 7676) doesn't even occur in Genesis and it is only used in the aforementioned verb form. outside of the creation's 7th day, there is only one other occurrence of this verb in Genesis and is in reference to day and night never "ceasing" and it has nothing to do with the 7th day, the 4th commandment or even a person resting.

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

HIM said:
I thought about addressing his statement here but could not think of a way that did not violate the Forum rules.

in writing this comment you are implicitly saying what you wanted to write down without actually saying it. the context in this thread involves the letter and spirit of the law. well, you have shown an example of keeping the letter of the forum rules while disregarding its spirit.

DamianWarS · Jan 30, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
All the law and the prophets includes Gods' 10 commandments does it not and God's 4th commandment? Love is expressed through Gods' 10 commandments as the 10 commandments are God's moral laws (scripture support here) of right doing and how we love God and our fellow man. (see Romans 13:8-10 and James 2:8-12).

and all the law and the prophets so whatever prescriptive approach you apply to the 10 needs to be applied to all the law and the prophets. Your logic of calling the 4th commandment moral law using Psalms 119:172 is inclusive all the laws and it would mean that laws like circumcision which is an everlasting covenant is also a moral law. You seem to be calling the entire law and prophets "moral law" to isolate only the 10 and say we must keep it. If you want to use this logic then you need to follow through with it and you can call all the entire law moral law then arbitrarily cut everything away from everything around the 10 commandments. This still is the same problem, there are no sources to support this view.

safswan · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
Jesus tells us that doing good on the Sabbath keeps the law and doing evil does not keep the law. So this begs the question that our actions on the Sabbath should be prioritized by how good they are rather than how they avoid work as the latter may in fact be to the diservice of others. But this begs another question why not do good every day in every action? I this we find the secret sauce to the gospel.

Jesus also does tell us to come to him and he will give us rest. Jesus didn't speak English and the word is probably used when he said he will give rest is sabbath (because that's the meaning of the word).

When it boils down it would seem if we do good and seek Christ for his rest we keep the sabbath.

I have a problem addressing your comments above.You give opinions which may seem to be based on scripture but there are also opinions which seem to have no scriptural basis.I would prefer not to assume which scriptures you may be misunderstanding nor assume which opinions have no basis in scripture.Could you clarify.

safswan · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
Nothing unclear, citing the Sabbath as a universal commandment since the beginning of time simply is not true because we know before law the Sabbath was not obversed even though it predates the law. So this tells us that the law has a specific purpose and is intended for a specific people.

To come to an opinion of the Sabbath based on no mention of it in a portion of scripture is not wise.Silence of the scriptures on a subject cannot mean it did not exist nor that it was not important.This is one of the rules of studying the scriptures.

What was the specific purpose of the law/Sabbath and for which people was it intended?

DamianWarS said:
We also know this of other laws like sign covenants through circumcision that the NT undeniably shows us it's physical observance is meaningless but the law points to something greater than the surface meaning. Why is the Sabbath any different? It clearly points to Christ and clearly our ability to obverse the Sabbath can only give us physical rest but, like circumstances, has no ability to go beyond the physical. Only Christ can give that rest, the Sabbath points to Christ and it is he we should keep not a day.

The writings of the apostle Paul do show the redundancy of the sacrificial laws like circumcision but where does anything in the writings of any apostle show the same for the 7th day Sabbath?

Where does scripture say Jesus is our Sabbath?

safswan · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
My comments are only based on scripture so I'm not sure what you're taking about.

Your comments are not only based on scripture.When you use terms like,"may","probably","would seem",you are employing your own philosophy and not the teaching of scripture for the most part.

Again if you would at least cite the scriptures you have in mind when you comment it would make the comments you are responding to unnecessary.

safswan · Jan 30, 2021

DamianWarS said:
Yet it was not obversed since the beginning of time and this immediately shows us the law of the Sabbath is conditional not universal.

Your assumption from silence is flawed thinking.Which of the commands you now do acknowledge as being relevant was shown in scripture to have been observed from the beginning?

Which scripture is it that supports your view that the Sabbath was conditional and not universal?

ARE ALL THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT?

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