Lets talk about the New Testament commandments (No Sabbath Talk Please)...

GDL said:

Once again, I never said emotion is not a part of love.

Not having read what you're talking about of Philo et.al., assuming they said what you're saying, I agree with them that we can act in love without emotion. I also agree with you [in part] that we can also act in love with emotion, or affection as you were saying. I see agape, carrying both obedience & affection, but I see the bulk of instruction being in the obedience to God & how we act aspects.

Keeping with 1Cor, take for instance 2:9: Has God prepared [glorious] things for those who just have affection for Him but disobey & reject Him & don't grow to function in Biblical Love towards Him & neighbor and fellow Christians as commanded?

Take the commands to love God, neighbor, and one another: Are we being commanded to have affection for all, or to function/act in love as it is described and commanded by God towards all?

The other case I can make here, is, since we are commanded to love, our acting in love as commanded is also our being obedient to God. Love for God and neighbor and one another is obedience to God (keeping/guarding/protecting His commandments just as 1John5 says).

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Before you appear to be arguing against emotion and yet still being for it.
You were arguing that Jesus cried and that was not a display of love.
You appear to argue that you can act in love and yet not have emotion (Which in my view is not biblical love). Neither am I saying that emotional love with no action is biblical love, either. Popular Christianity says that love is not emotion and they even go so far as to say that joy is not an emotion (Which is an extreme error).

As for your point about love and obedience:

Well, I am not denying that we need obedience to God to show that our affection or emotion is true. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). I said this before. It was my whole point as to why affection starts first, and then it is followed by proper actions of affection or love (i.e. obeying God's commands). I said before that it is illogical to interpret love as solely obeying God's commands alone without affection as a part of John 14:15. Jesus did not say if you keep my commandments, keep my commandments. He was not repeating himself. Jesus is saying if you have affection for me (emotional love for me), keep my commandments. So one MUST proceed the other. For Paul says we can give our bodies to burned, and if we do not have love, it profits us nothing. Love begins with our journey with God, when we repent, and seek forgiveness with the Lord, and we seek to adore and worship Him using our emotion of love that then pushes us on to love God with our actions. Our hearts should be moved with emotion when we think about the love God had for us by dying on the cross for us. This love was not just in action alone by God. God truly has a pure affection for mankind that He did not want to see man perish. God was moved on an affectionate level for us. For God is love.

GDL said:

You're a bit stuck & don't really respond to other verses I ask you to explain your view of.

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My apologies. I just find it shocking to deny that godly emotions are the primary basis that leads us to repentance. For I see godly sorrow as an emotion, and the Scriptures say:

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Corinthians 7:10).

You said:

For example, you've brought up John 14:15 several times. I've asked you to take what follows into account. I'll do it a bit for you:

Firstly, there is a manuscript variant to look at - it can be seen in different English translations:

ESV John 14:15 "If you love me, [you] will keep my commandments. (the brackets are mine because "you" is implied in the verb, not separately stated.​

NKJ John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments

- The variant is whether "keep" is a future indicative verb or an aorist imperative verb

- Is Jesus telling them they will obey Him in the future because they love Him (love > obedience follows)?

- Is Jesus commanding them to obey Him if they love Him (love > obedience commanded)?

- Is Jesus correlating loving Him with obeying Him (love <> obedience)?

- Does it really matter if it's a command or just a statement that obedience will follow love?

- Does it have to be love > obedience, or does it make more sense that it's love <> obedience?

- So, add the following: NKJ John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."​

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While I apologize for not addressing your response from before, part of the reason why I did not want to give you a response on your reply on John 14:15 is because I am KJB Only, and I don't believe we have to know the original languages in order to understand God's Word. While knowing certain words in the original languages can be very helpful, I believe God can just as equally teach us by His Spirit His Holy Word without having access to Lexicons, ect.; For God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith (James 2:5). Meaning, poor folk do not always have access to Lexicons, and they are simple people like fishermen. If you tell them words do not mean what they say plainly in the English in their bible, they are going to be like... “Huh?” and look at you funny.

So I did not want to derail this thread with discussing the KJB as being the final word of authority.
I just read John 14:15 and believe it (Which is Kingdom teaching and relates to the Parable of the Sower; For any of the seed of the communicated Word of God that we do not receive will be snatched away from us by the evil one and that seed will not remain in us).

While this may not be the case for you, it appears from my perspective that when Christians do not accept what a verse or passage says plainly in the English, they look for some interpretation from some scholar on the original languages that supports their viewpoint that speaks contrary to what the verse or passage says in English.

To learn why I am KJB Only, check out this thread here:

30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

And also check out Mr. Gipp's videos on the KJB. You can watch the first dramatized episode by clicking on the following spoiler button, and if you are interested further, you can check out the rest of the episodes by clicking on the following link.

You said:

- It seems to me that Jesus has just clarified the matter for us: the ones who love Him are those who both "have" and "keep His commandments (love <> obedience).

- So, if we don't have & keep His commandments, then we don't love Him (no matter how we feel). So, love <> obedience. And He further clarifies this for us here: NKJ John 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

- The condition for love is learning/having & keeping/guarding Jesus' commandments. The condition for love is not how we feel. As I recall teaching decades ago: When we say we love Jesus/God, there's criteria for that statement.

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Again, a person can secretly hate another person and act in loving way towards them so as to deceive them. A loveless (unaffectionate) marriage will not last long. Robots can mimic obedience to God, but they have no emotions or any real actual love that God desires. God's Word makes it clear that it is not sufficient to just obey if one does not have the affection of love in 1 Corinthians 13. We can give our whole body to be burned and give all our goods to feed the poor, and yet if we have not love, it profits us nothing (See again 1 Corinthians 13:3). So you cannot have one without the other.

You said:

- This is in line with: NKJ 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

- This is similar to Jesus' rebuke here: NKJ Luke 6:46 "But why do you call Me`Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? Re: love for Him He's basically said the same thing in John 14: Why do you say you love Me and not know and do what I command?

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Again, I am not in disagreement that we need to ALSO obey God's commands as a part of showing true biblical love, but we need to first have a godly sorrow (emotion) and a godly love (emotion) first. If no emotion and we act with no emotion we are no better than a robot who mimics loving actions. If God wanted emotionless robots, he would have created them instead of humans with emotions.

You said:

- Furthermore, Jesus conditions our being loved by His Father upon our love <> obedience for/to Jesus.
As I've said several times now, I don't strip emotion out of agape, but emotion/affection is far from being primary in any of this command and instruction. If your affection gets you to obedience, then great! If my obedience get's me to affection, also great! But learned obedience is the primary criteria in Biblical Love for God.

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I am glad that you admit that there needs to be emotion at some point, but it is still an incorrect teaching from my point of view in studying life and the Scriptures to say that one can have biblical love without an emotion at any point in time. It's why we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace first before entering the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation. Coupled with being sorry over our sins (which is an emotional response) it's either the fear of the Lord (i.e. fear of hell, which is an emotional response), or it is the love of God (i.e. knowing truly the love Jesus had for us in dying in our place for us, which is an emotional response) which leads us to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and to believe that Christ died for ours sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Again, I am not saying we don't need to obey His commandments. I believe those who do not strive to obey the Lord's commands and they justify sin in this life are not going to make it in the end. We need both God's grace, and Sanctification as a part of salvation.

You said:

Re: Jesus Wept per John 11:25:

- Jesus had plenty of opportunities to cry re: Lazarus's death, but He didn't see this death as they did (11:3-17 & 23-27). Why would He cry at this death which was provided for an amazing opportunity to prove He is the resurrection & the life - the Christ, the Son of God - and to show the glory of God?

- I think the key to this is partly or mainly in 11:33, 38 & 40.

- John tells us that Jesus "groaned in the/His spirit and troubled/unsettled Himself." This is where we see Him going through some intense emotion.

- "groaned" means He felt strongly about something - He was deeply moved. Interestingly this word trends into concepts of anger, admonishment, intense scolding - it is correlated to a horse snorting and harshness of expression.

- "troubled/unsettled is like something being shaken and stirred up - it's saying He disturbed Himself/shook Himself up.

- This is painting a much different picture than Him crying simply because He loved/had affection for Lazarus as the Judeans thought/said in 11:36. This is just a statement about the thinking of people who really did not know or get Him. This is really not about a sadness for Lazarus's death - Jesus knew what this "sleep" was for and He purposely delayed getting there so Lazarus would go from sickness to death.

- By 11:40 Jesus is saying what this is all about: NKJ John 11:40 Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"

- IMO it is these verses that tell us why Jesus wept:

- No matter how much He had taught, He was still surrounded by unbelief and lack of understanding.

- He's having to deal with death, which is firstly not supposed to be our lot and is of the enemy, and with peoples' reactions to and emotions about this death, including being told He had failed Lazarus and his family & friends (11:32) even when He's told some that this death was for a purpose intended by God for His glory and that Lazarus would rise again (11:23).

- Bottom line: I see just as much a frustration and possibly even hatred for ignorance and all things death in this crying event as an affection for these people, including Lazarus. We're being given a picture of Him being stirred up like a snorting horse. The affection for people and getting stirred up at their condition and lot in this fleshly existence IMO is what we're being given a picture of.

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That is a lot of conjecture. There are many other moments where Jesus clearly had seen ignorance and death and yet He did not weep. I believe Jesus simply wept because He had a close relationship with these Jews, and they were crying and when He looked at their dead family member and He seen them crying, He felt that moment of intense pain and loss that they had. It's like when you cry when you see somebody else cry. The seeing of Lazarus and his death combined with their crying over him made Jesus to cry like any other human could possibly do. This is what I read when I read these verses. I do not see Jesus getting angry at them.

You said:

If you'll read closely, you'll note I do not disregard affection. I simply see it has a place, it's intertwined, but its not primary and a cause for all results.

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I now see that, but I still think that such a view lines up with both reality and the Bible. Jesus did not discount reality, either. The Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus' parable of dogs and Jesus did not reject her extended parable. She gave a real world example of how life works, and Jesus accepted it. So God is not in denial of reality or truths by our observation over what His Word says. Granted, our faith is derived from the communicated Word of God (Scripture or the Bible), but that does not mean we deny reality, though. For even the creation teaches mankind about the existence of God.

BNR32FAN said:

Abide in Christ and bear fruit. John 15:1-10.

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Here are my John 15 commands.

1. Abide in me [i.e. Jesus] (John 15:4).
   
   
2. Bear much fruit (John 15:8).
   
   
3. Continue in my love [i.e. Christ's love] (John 15:9).
   
   
4. You should go and bring forth fruit, and your fruit should remain (John 15:16).
   

GDL said:

This link to other work was supplied on another thread. I haven't reviewed the work. Bible Highlighter knows more about it than I:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

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klutedavid said:

There is a lot of repetition if you read through that list carefully.

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Yes, this list is flawed. They create commands that I do not think are commands, as well. They also leave out some, too. I only supplied it at one point in another thread because it is a useful study guide. But it is by no means accurate. I have my own list of NT commands, and I am seeking to perfect them.

As for repetitive commands: This one is the hardest to make decisions on. There are some commands that use other wording to say the same thing, but yet on the other hand, there could be another meaning to them, as well. Only if it is an obvious repeat command do I combine such commands.

GDL said:

Thanks for all the explanation.

We're kind of moving around from affection in love and now to sorrow. So, I'll leave the emotions matter where it is. I would only say that it's also conjecture to think that John 11:36 is explaining all there is to know about what Jesus was dealing with.

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Sorrow is just as much of an emotion as affection is an emotion. Both are emotions. I believe either the fear of the Lord (an emotion) and a godly sorrow over one's sins (an emotion) will lead a person to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that if it is not the fear of the Lord, then it is being compelled in love (an emotion) by the love of God and what His Son has done for us that leads us to Christ Jesus. Without these emotions being expressed, there is no basis for a person coming to the faith properly. If it is all a mental acknowledgment of a set of facts and it does not hit a person's heart, it's going to lead to building on a faulty foundation.

You said:

I've reviewed many years ago the KJB arguments & research on errors. Although I know there are those like yourself who choose only to use this translation, I don't concur with the choice, especially today when we have so many tools at our fingertips, including some lexicons and dictionaries.

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Not all KJB Only folks are alike. I am not your average KJB Only proponent. I believe in using Modern Translations, English dictionaries, articles by Christians, and lexicons on super rare occasions; But my final word of authority is the KJB (King James Bible). My one and only authority is the KJB. So when I say I am KJB Only, I am saying the KJB is my one and only final authority. This is not to say I discount the original languages. I also do not believe the KJB is an improvement upon the originals, either. I believe they say the same thing (even though there may be additional meaning in the original languages).

You said:

On a positive note, I must tell you that anyone who seeks to study our Text, especially to better understand the will & direction of God for our walk with Him, has my respect and admiration, even if we disagree on some details. I would only request or caution, not just you, but myself and any others, to please not throw out some of the more in-depth work that can be done by those who have invested life and treasure into learning from the original languages and acquiring the tools to do continual research. As I said before, the body is made up of different parts having different functions & purposes.

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I do consider the original languages sometimes as being very helpful, but it is not my ultimate guide. I believe in one instance that stands out is on the words “for ever” in the King James Bible. This does not always mean “forever” as we would understand it. Yes, it is still forever in the context of how long something exists. But a deeper meaning behind this word can mean to refer to: “ages.” Both translations are true, but one simply gives a deeper meaning. So I am not denying the use of the original languages by any means. They can be helpful, but they should not conflict with what the English says. But we can agree to disagree of course. I would at least watch the videos by Mr. Gipp that I sent you. You may not agree with them, but at least you will be informed of the KJB Only position a little more. For me, the videos helped me to further deepen my faith in God's Word. They are dramatized videos, meaning they are like little mini movie clips. So they are not hard to watch by any means.

You can check all seven episodes here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdD7_B3zweu0qi_gUHA9W_0JxSM_jT0zj

GDL said:

Another command I just found myself posting on another thread. Actually, I find this one missing in most recommendations for dealing with weaknesses and temptations. FWIW, this commanded provision has been immeasurably helpful for me in my walk in obeying Him and thus loving Him.

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Yes, I have categorized the following as a grace command, and do find it to be essential to the faith.

1. Let us come boldly unto the throne of grace (that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need) (Hebrews 4:16).

For without God's grace, we would all perish. I see this working in harmony with 1 John 1:9. Granted, I am not saying that we should think that we must always commit mortal sin in this life all the way until our death, for I believe without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But if we do happen to stumble unintentionally on rare occasion, there is God's grace. But the idea that we must commit mortal sin again in this life because we cannot overcome mortal sin is merely an excuse to sin (in my humble opinion).

BobRyan said:

Yeah I corrected my post -- it is only 1050 not 1150.

1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

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This list of NT commands is from the work of Finis Jennings Dake, and his list of commands is not really accurate. I take it as a unique study guide, but not as an accurate list of God's commands in the New Testament.

For example: He lists a command as “Be harmless as doves”

Yet, the command in it's entirety is:

1. Be aware that I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; Therefore, be as wise as serpents, and harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16).

Dake breaks this one command into two commands and he ignores the first part of this command that says, “Be aware that I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.”

Finis Jennings Dake leaves out certain commands, like:

1. Do not make my Father's house a house of merchandise (John 2:16).
2. You must be born again (John 3:7).
3. You ought to wash one another's feet. I [Jesus] have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you (John 13:14-15).

Dake's list does not have the full version of the greatest commandment and neither does he list any greatest commandment, either.

Mark 12:29-30 lists the full version of the 1st greatest commandment. It says:

“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.”


Side Note:

Also, I think the church website (Christian Assemblies International) should give more of a noticeable credit to the author “Finis Jennings Dake” instead of listing the source at the bottom (that most people normally don't check). They should have said at the top of the page, 1,050 commands by Finis Jennings Dake.

BobRyan said:

There are two mentioned in Matt 22,

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Yes, the two greatest commandments. However, as I mentioned before (that you may have already been aware of), the full version of the first greatest commandment is found in Mark 12:29-30. I believe the full version of this command is found only in Mark because Mark is the least of the gospels (i.e. It is a humble gospel). The first greatest commandment can be broken up into a five part instruction.

Part #1. Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord,
Part #2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart,
Part #3. Love the Lord your God with all your soul,
Part #4. Love the Lord your God with all your mind,
Part #5. Love the Lord your God with all your strength.

What is interesting is that Deuteronomy 6, and Deuteronomy 10 does not mention Part #4 that says to love the Lord your God with all your mind. So this was an added improvement by our Lord in Mark 12:29-30.

You said:

There are a lot more than two mentioned in Matt 19

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Here are my Matthew 19 explicit commands:

1. Be patient with little children, and forbid them not to come unto me (i.e. Jesus) (Matthew 19:14).
2. Keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
3. You shall do no murder (Matthew 19:18).
4. You shall not commit adultery (Matthew 19:18).
5. You shall not steal (Matthew 19:18).
6. You shall not bear false witness (Matthew 19:18).
7. Honour thy father and thy mother (Matthew 19:19)
8. You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 19:19).
9. If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor (Matthew 19:21).
10. Come and follow me (Matthew 19:21).

Matthew 19 non-explicit commands:

1. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (Matthew 19:6) (Translation: Let us not put asunder (separate) what God has joined together).
2. Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: (Matthew 19:9) (Translation: Except it be for fornication, you shall not put away your wife and marry another).
3. Whoever marries her who is put away does commit adultery (Matthew 19:9) (Translation: Do not marry her who is put away (divorced)).
4. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it (Matthew 19:12) (Translation: You who are capable to receive it [i.e. the law or laws on marriage], allow yourself to receive it (or them) - See Matthew 19:10-11).

You said:

almost the same as those mentioned in Romans 13

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Here are my Romans 13 explicit commands:

1. Do that which is good (Romans 13:3).
2. Be afraid, if you do that which is evil, (Romans 13:4).
3. You must submit to them [i.e. the higher powers, or the government, and or civil authorities] (Romans 13:5).
4. Pay tribute: Render therefore to all their dues; Tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; respect to whom respect; honor to whom honor (Romans 13:6-7).
5. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another (Romans 13:8).
   
6. You shall not commit adultery (Romans 13:9).
7. You shall not kill (Romans 13:9).
8. You shall not steal (Romans 13:9).
9. You shall not bear false witness (Romans 13:9).
10. You shall not covet (Romans 13:9).
11. You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Romans 13:9).
12. Awake out of sleep:

Romans 13 non-explicit commands:

1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation (Romans 13:1-2) (Translation: Be subject unto the higher powers (i.e. the government, and or civil authorities) and do not resist them).

BobRyan said:

Ok so wayyy more than 1050 in the NT as you have pointed to some it left out.

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Actually, so far to my count, it is less seeing “Finis Jennings Dake” (not Christian Assemblies) breaks apart a ton of commands that have multiple sub instructions.

Side Note:

Currently, I am double checking my list and perfecting it right now (Which is more time consuming than one might realize).