LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

He is the way · Nov 21, 2020

Dale said:
Since we are still having a problem accepting that God is spirit, consider this.

" ... you would have been confuted in this matter by the Gospel of John, when it declares that the
Spirit descended in the body of a dove, and sat upon the Lord. Matthew 3:16. When the said
Spirit was in this condition, He was as truly a dove as He was also a spirit; nor did He destroy
His own proper substance by the assumption of an extraneous substance. But you ask what
becomes of the dove's body, after the return of the Spirit back to heaven, and similarly in the
case of the angels. Their withdrawal was effected in the same manner as their appearance
had been. If you had seen how their production out of nothing had been effected, you would
have known also the process of their return to nothing."

This is from Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ, Chapter 3. Tertullian is one of the Early Church Fathers, as you may know. He poses the question of where the dove came from at the baptism of Jesus. Is the Holy Spirit always a dove? No. Tertullian says that the body of the dove was read but it was created for the event and returned to nothingness after the event. Tertullian expresses the sense of Scripture and the understanding of Christians of his time.

Tertullian proceeds from the understanding that God can create matter, an uncreate it, as needed.

Consider this, God has an image:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God is like us:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

What is a spiritual body?:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:44)

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ran77 · Nov 22, 2020

Dale said:
Since we are still having a problem accepting that God is spirit, consider this.

I'm not having a problem regarding this topic. I suggest that you speak only for yourself.

Dale said:
This is from Tertullian . . .

Quoting a different non-doctrinal source isn't going to change the fact that I am only going to deal with doctrinal material. And since I am capable of forming my own statements about doctrine, I expect anyone discussing the matter with me to do the same. Or if you prefer bullet points:

1) Not interested in the opinions of Tertullian or other mortal men who I do not recognize as an authoritative source of doctrine.

2) Not going to debate with/against a series of quotes from someone who is not actually on the forum. I will be happy to respond to statements that you make, but not a bunch of cut-n-paste borrowed from someone else.

Ran77 · Nov 22, 2020

dzheremi said:
How is that an excellent point?

Because it did an excellent job of refuting the previous argument.

Peter1000 · Nov 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
YOU CAN READ THE ENTIRE CEREMONY HERE:
This is a small excerpt.

The Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

(Lucifer draws his cloak up to reveal a black apron.)

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden.)

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam and Eve that we would visit them and give them further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

ADAM: Come, let us hide.

NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

"The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing."

If that is true---why then do your prophets all say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they fell? You make up a whole thing stating they could not but to say that they could have is not biblical!!! They were given the command to do so---they were bound to that command and had to obey it just as all the animals had to obey. To not do so would have been disobedience. That would have been sin! Were the animals not able to do as God commanded also??? You failed to answer that question.
And nothing in the bible says anything about Jesus being "anointed"---Jesus is God---with the Father and Holy Spirit--He needed no anointing! He is the creator of all, including Lucifer! It is He that made the decision to come down as a man and save His own creation. He was not some "spiritual child" of the Father and some heavenly wife!! God has given us what happened in the garden---it is you who are making thi9ngs up contrary to what is plainly written. It is you that needs to "take it up with God." I have His word, you have JS. We are not saved by the words of JS, but by the words of Jesus Christ, the Creator of all. No one needs to be grateful for the fall!!

Yes we do. If there had been no fall:

1) no mortal experience.
2) no learning between right and wrong by experience.
3) no choice to choose Jesus or satan.
4) no need for a Savior, who was the Messiah, the anointed one, anointed before the world was created.
5) no need for a Savior to resurrect us.

Tell me how you think we would have eacaped the garden without the fall, and again came to heaven, and be in the presence of God and Jesus for eternity. Quote a scripture if you can.

The apron that satan had on represented his power and his priesthood, which he did not have and he knew it.

Way different than the apron we put on in the temple.

So if you somehow have figured that is the connection between us and satan, sorry to tell you it is a false notion. We are not thankful to satan for anything even though we both have aprons that represent 2 totally different things. Sorry. Millions of people wear aprons every day that do not connect them to satan.

Peter1000 · Nov 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Good grief! We were created to inhabit this earth---what in the world makes you think we needed to leave it to be with God?

So is this little planet earth going to be where God and Jesus are going to live for eternity with those that are saved? Does God and Jesus live here now or somewhere else?

We would never have known anything but peace, joy and love like all the other unfallen worlds.

Pleae give us a biblical reference for God's plan that we would live in peace, joy and love. Then find me a scripture in the bible that says specifically "fallen worlds". Thank you.

All your speculations are, quite frankly---rather disgusting and shows what little you know of the true God!!

Apparently you have not read any of the scriptures from the bible where Jesus describes hell for those who reject him. He is quite frank and doesn't pull his punches. Hell is not a place you want to end up in if you want to talk about disgustingly painful for all eternities, no letting up on the pain and obvious sorrow and despair for ever and ever. How do you reconcile hell with a loving God?

JS, through revelation did has reconciled hell with a loving God, and you will be grateful for his insight into what hell is really like.

Peter1000 · Nov 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
There will be no God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He has said it, and there will be none.

Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

He says it correctly. For this earth He is the great I AM, and before Him there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. What you have to understand is He was talking of this earth alone and the inhabitants of this earth.

As Paul says there are gods and lords, but to us there is only 1 God. We believe that too. So what is the problem?

mmksparbud · Nov 26, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Yes we do. If there had been no fall:

1) no mortal experience.
2) no learning between right and wrong by experience.
3) no choice to choose Jesus or satan.
4) no need for a Savior, who was the Messiah, the anointed one, anointed before the world was created.
5) no need for a Savior to resurrect us.

Tell me how you think we would have eacaped the garden without the fall, and again came to heaven, and be in the presence of God and Jesus for eternity. Quote a scripture if you can.

The apron that satan had on represented his power and his priesthood, which he did not have and he knew it.

Way different than the apron we put on in the temple.

So if you somehow have figured that is the connection between us and satan, sorry to tell you it is a false notion. We are not thankful to satan for anything even though we both have aprons that represent 2 totally different things. Sorry. Millions of people wear aprons every day that do not connect them to satan.

1.What a crock!! We were never meant to have mortal experience. We were meant to spend eternity with God and each other, just as the unfallen angels.

2.There would have been no need to know any wrong---all we would have known was right.

3.Lucifer had no Satan---he chose to rebel against God---so could anyone else. All of God's creations were created with free will or Satan could not have rebelled. God never created robots.

4.No---there never would have been a need for Jesus to die a horrible death!
5. Right---there would have been no death and no need for a resurrection.

There was no need to escape the garden!! That was to be our home, it was created for us! It was beautiful, with everything we needed. That was our home and never meant to be spending eternity "in heaven"---we had our own world made for us and God came to us!! Read Genesis---it says God created the world, and he created Adam and Eve and they were to multiply and take dominion of this world and care for it and it's animals. Read the bible and you would have yo0ur answers instead of a bunch of lies.

Satan had no priesthood---and neither do you---fake power. Millions of people do not wear aprons to represent a false priesthood that has no power whatsoever. They wear aprons to protect their clothing, not to have a feeling of power.

mmksparbud · Nov 26, 2020

Peter1000 said:
He says it correctly. For this earth He is the great I AM, and before Him there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. What you have to understand is He was talking of this earth alone and the inhabitants of this earth.

As Paul says there are gods and lords, but to us there is only 1 God. We believe that too. So what is the problem?

What you have to understand is that He is talking about the whole universe, not just one tiny little planet. Your god is the god of this planet---OUR GOD is the God of the universe. Sorry, but had the same problem as Lucifer---a very bad case of "I"---self imoportance. The glorification of self which leads to the reduction of the greatness of God. We don't have a problem---you do, when you actually realize who the REAL GOD is and that there is no other and never will be any other! I hope you find it out before it's too late.

Peter1000 · Nov 28, 2020

mmksparbud said:
1.What a crock!! We were never meant to have mortal experience. We were meant to spend eternity with God and each other, just as the unfallen angels.

2.There would have been no need to know any wrong---all we would have known was right.

3.Lucifer had no Satan---he chose to rebel against God---so could anyone else. All of God's creations were created with free will or Satan could not have rebelled. God never created robots.

4.No---there never would have been a need for Jesus to die a horrible death!
5. Right---there would have been no death and no need for a resurrection.

There was no need to escape the garden!! That was to be our home, it was created for us! It was beautiful, with everything we needed. That was our home and never meant to be spending eternity "in heaven"---we had our own world made for us and God came to us!! Read Genesis---it says God created the world, and he created Adam and Eve and they were to multiply and take dominion of this world and care for it and it's animals. Read the bible and you would have yo0ur answers instead of a bunch of lies.

Satan had no priesthood---and neither do you---fake power. Millions of people do not wear aprons to represent a false priesthood that has no power whatsoever. They wear aprons to protect their clothing, not to have a feeling of power.

If this is a crock, and none of this was meant to happen, then why did it. Was God completley blindsided by A&E's behavior? Did God not know?

Of course satan has not the true priesthood, and A&E's aprons was to cover their nakedness, which had nothing to do with satan's made up priesthood or God's true priesthood. The apron that A&E put on was to cover their nakedness.

You see, by stealing the temple ceremony, you have opened yourself up to further falsehoods, which is not good for you or anyone that views it without full knowledge.

Peter1000 · Nov 28, 2020

mmksparbud said:
What you have to understand is that He is talking about the whole universe, not just one tiny little planet. Your god is the god of this planet---OUR GOD is the God of the universe. Sorry, but had the same problem as Lucifer---a very bad case of "I"---self imoportance. The glorification of self which leads to the reduction of the greatness of God. We don't have a problem---you do, when you actually realize who the REAL GOD is and that there is no other and never will be any other! I hope you find it out before it's too late.

Yes, God is the God of the whole universe. But He is also the God of the inhabitants of this earth. And to the inhabitants of this earth he declares that He is the only God and before Him and after him there was no God formed for the inhabitants of this earth.

That is why Paul said, that there be gods many and lords many, but for us there is only 1 God. We believe Paul, and the bible.

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2020

Peter1000 said:
If this is a crock, and none of this was meant to happen, then why did it. Was God completley blindsided by A&E's behavior? Did God not know?

Of course satan has not the true priesthood, and A&E's aprons was to cover their nakedness, which had nothing to do with satan's made up priesthood or God's true priesthood. The apron that A&E put on was to cover their nakedness.

You see, by stealing the temple ceremony, you have opened yourself up to further falsehoods, which is not good for you or anyone that views it without full knowledge.

You know why---it's called free will. God made provision if they chose disobedience over obedience. Lucifer did not need a Satan, he became Satan. Adam and Eve made themselves the coverings from fig leaves. That represents our works---which are not of any value, God made them the needed garments---from skins, representing the works of God not man. An animal died that day to cover them. The animal representing the blood of Christ.
You temple ceremony is of no value whatsoever. The bible gives a clear account without the li9es of Satan.

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Yes, God is the God of the whole universe. But He is also the God of the inhabitants of this earth. And to the inhabitants of this earth he declares that He is the only God and before Him and after him there was no God formed for the inhabitants of this earth.

That is why Paul said, that there be gods many and lords many, but for us there is only 1 God. We believe Paul, and the bible.

Also? This planet is part of the universe He created. Our God is the creator of all, not just this planet. That is why He said there was no God before Him nor will there be another after Him---JS is not of God.

He is the way · Nov 28, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Also? This planet is part of the universe He created. Our God is the creator of all, not just this planet. That is why He said there was no God before Him nor will there be another after Him---JS is not of God.

Did Jesus Christ create God the Father?

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2020

He is the way said:
Did Jesus Christ create God the Father?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit---One God --from everlasting to everlasting----really dumb question.

dzheremi · Nov 28, 2020

I know it has been an extremely long year, friends, but here is HITW and I back in January of this year having basically this exact same conversation on God vs. the things He created (posts 261 and 262). And now he is back with the same question: "Is God created?"

Gee, I don't know...has fundamental Christian doctrine like God being the omnipotent creator and sustainer of everything somehow changed since January so as to make Mormonism right and Christianity wrong? I know Mormon doctrine changes whenever they feel like it (and feel like attributing their lying and chicanery to God), but Christianity is generally more stable than that with regard to its most basic and widely agreed upon theology, like this stuff.

Dale · Nov 28, 2020

mmksparbud said:
YOU CAN READ THE ENTIRE CEREMONY HERE:
This is a small excerpt.

The Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

(Lucifer draws his cloak up to reveal a black apron.)

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden.)

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam and Eve that we would visit them and give them further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

ADAM: Come, let us hide.

NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

"The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing."

If that is true---why then do your prophets all say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they fell? You make up a whole thing stating they could not but to say that they could have is not biblical!!! They were given the command to do so---they were bound to that command and had to obey it just as all the animals had to obey. To not do so would have been disobedience. That would have been sin! Were the animals not able to do as God commanded also??? You failed to answer that question.
And nothing in the bible says anything about Jesus being "anointed"---Jesus is God---with the Father and Holy Spirit--He needed no anointing! He is the creator of all, including Lucifer! It is He that made the decision to come down as a man and save His own creation. He was not some "spiritual child" of the Father and some heavenly wife!! God has given us what happened in the garden---it is you who are making thi9ngs up contrary to what is plainly written. It is you that needs to "take it up with God." I have His word, you have JS. We are not saved by the words of JS, but by the words of Jesus Christ, the Creator of all. No one needs to be grateful for the fall!!

He is the way said:
That is your opinion, I also have a opinion and it differs from yours. The opinions of people who have had near death experiences also disagree with your opinion.

Peter1000 said:
The word "Messiah" means "the anointed one". We all know who the Messiah is, Jesus Christ, so I suspect he was anointed to be the savior long before the fall took place.

You say no one needs to be grateful for the fall!!.
Here are several reasons why we believe the fall was necessary.

If A&E had stayed true to their garden experience, there never would have been a fall.
1) We would not have had a mortal existence. Our mortal existence is necessary to continue to prove that outside of God's presence, we would continue to love Him and to do as he has commanded. Prove that we were worthy of his great blessings.
2) We would not have experienced good and evil. We would not have had a chance to choose with our free will the good over the evil.
3) We would not have had the opportunity to do evil and come to understand that doing good is a much better path to follow through our experiences.
4) We would not experience the saving power of our Savior. Feeling the refreshing nature of repentence and feeling the exhilerating expansion of growth as we came to stand with Jesus on our own 2 feet with the grace of Jesus.
5) We would never experience the tremendous emotions of dying, and being resurrected, and then hearing the words, "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into My house".

I know you think that it would be much better to have stayed in the garden, but how would we get out of the garden and back to God in heaven? Any thoughs?

The use of aprons in Mornon Temple ceremonies is interesting. Many people see this as evidence that Joseph Smith borrowed the aprons from the ceremonies of the Masonic Lodge, the Freemasons. What other ideas did he borrow from the Freemasons?

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2020

Dale said:
The use of aprons in Mornon Temple ceremonies is interesting. Many people see this as evidence that Joseph Smith borrowed the aprons from the ceremonies of the Masonic Lodge, the Freemasons. What other ideas did he borrow from the Freemasons?

Many---borrowed is not the right word!! Stole? Including their secret handshakes---all of this supposedly from God------NOT!

Here is a link that tells more about that.

http://freemasonrywatch.org/the.masonic.roots.of.joseph.

Dale · Nov 28, 2020

He is the way said:
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God has a spiritual body:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:44 - 46)

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

I could raise several questions on how the verses you cite relate to the question of God being Spirit, the All-Powerful spirit who created everything.

Christians believe that all souls, all spirits, are created by God. God is the only uncreated being.

On the other hand, the Book of Abraham says:

18 Howbeit that he made the greater
star; as, also, if there be two spirits,
and one shall be more intelligent than
the other, yet these two spirits, not
withstanding one is more intelligent
than the other, have no beginning;
they existed before, they shall have
no end, they shall exist after, for they
are bgnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me:
These two facts do exist, that there
are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be
another more intelligent than they;
I am the Lord thy God, I am more
intelligent than they all.
BA 3:18-19

... I came down in the beginning
in the midst of all the intelligences
thou hast seen
22 Now the Lord had shown unto
me, Abraham, the intelligences
that were organized before the
world was; and among all these
there were many of the noble and
great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that
they were good, and he stood in the
midst of them, and he said: These
I will make my rulers; for he stood
among those that were spirits, and
he saw that they were good; and he
said unto me: Abraham, thou art one
of them; thou wast chosen before
thou wast born
24 And there stood one among
them that was like unto God, and he
said unto those who were with him:
We will go down, for there is space
there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth
whereon these may dwell;
BA 3: 20-24

In the Book of Abraham, spirits pre-exist from eternity. God sees them, and chooses them. He organizes a planet for them to live on in mortal bodies, but the Mormon God doesn't create spirits, or souls. The spirits that become people are already there, they are eternal and uncreated. Multitudes of spirits exist before God decides to make a planet for them.

This isn't what we find in Genesis. In Genesis, Adam becomes a living soul when God creates him. God doesn't grab a soul and put it into Adam's body. There are no pre-existent spirits in Genesis.

He is the way · Nov 28, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit---One God --from everlasting to everlasting----really dumb question.

For us there is one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. It is not the other way around:

(New Testament | Romans 15:6)

6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

mmksparbud · Nov 28, 2020

He is the way said:
For us there is one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ. It is not the other way around:

(New Testament | Romans 15:6)

6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For you there is one god---of this planet, but admit that there are many gods out there and that the god of this planet was born of a woman on some other planet and came to this earth after having been crucified on another planet to save them from their sins. And Jesus is just one of his sons who replicated what his father had done and in obedience he became god. Our God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---one God--and He had no wife, much less many, and absolutely had no father or grandfathers. Jesus did not come to become God----He was God from everlasting to everlasting. He came specifically to die for our sins. He is the creator of all things from nothing. Your god can not do that, he can only rearrange matter. We do not serve the same God!

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