Salvation and Calvinists

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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
You responded to another poster's comment about "repent" and "believe".

But now you seem unwilling to discuss how YOU mean the word "repent" as it relates to salvation?
The key phrase being “another member”.
No. The key phrase being "YOU responded to another poster's". And I was commenting about your response.

But now it seems you are unwilling to respond.
 
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Hammster

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FreeGrace2 said:
You responded to another poster's comment about "repent" and "believe".

But now you seem unwilling to discuss how YOU mean the word "repent" as it relates to salvation?

No. The key phrase being "YOU responded to another poster's". And I was commenting about your response.

But now it seems you are unwilling to respond.
I’ll respond to the OP.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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Well how do I believe in Christ? How do I know if I am actually elect and chosen by God or if I am just decieving myself?
Let me make this really simple.

Repent and believe in the gospel.[Mark 1:15]

If you truly repent and truly believe, you are saved.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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Well I guess I'm forever lost then if thats the case.... I don't have faith. I can't turn from sin. I have no savior as of this moment.
If you’re truly sincere in this, why not call out to Him in prayer for His mercy? Just pour your heart out to Him in repentance. That’s what the tax collector(publican in the KJV) did in Luke 18:9-14.
 
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5thKingdom

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This is a question I have for my own personal salvation honestly. I have been trying to figure out how I can be saved but a big wrench in my searching is the whole "Calvinistic doctrine" as people call it. These Calvinists argue that I can't save myself, which I believe is true. But they say that I am predestined to either hell or heaven. Predestined to continue in sin or to repent and believe in Christ for my salvation. They basically teach that I have no free will but I am still responsible for if I go to hell or not. I am hopelessly confused by these teachings (predestination, free will, salvation.) I thought salvation was supposed to be simple but honestly it seems like most people who call themselves Christians can't even agree on how salvation works. I've seen constant arguing between Calvinists and others and now it has confused me, an unbeliever, to the point where I don't know what to do for salvation.

Do I repent and believe? Do I just hope that I have been predestined to be saved? Do I just ask God to save me?

And I'm afraid that no matter what I do I will be seeking salvation the wrong way. I've heard people even say that trying to seek faith in Christ or trying to believe is a work. Or that I am placing my faith in my faith instead of Christ (if that makes sense even.)

Some have said that repenting and believing is a work. And some have even said that salvation comes before repentance and belief. That only the elect will believe.

Do I just hope and beg God to save me? If I am not elect then he won't do it anyway. If I am not predestined he won't save me. That is what I've heard from Calvinists at least.

What if I am not one of the elect or predestined to be saved? As an unbeliever I am hopelessly confused as to how to be saved.


The Biblical teaching that all repentance is the result of regeneration
is not "Calvinistic"... it is what JESUS taught, 1500 years before
Calvin was born.


1500 years before Calvin was born Jesus taught that NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father first "draw" them and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He would lose NONE
of "His sheep". That is not "Calvinism"... it is JESUS [John 6]


The fact that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved is not
from Calvin... it is what JESUS taught 1500 years before Calvin
was even born. Jesus said [Mark 4:11-12] that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted"
or have their "sins forgiven". That is the Gospel (not Calvinism).


The Gospel of the Bible is a monergistic gospel (saved by God alone)
the heresy of synergism (man initiates or contributes to salvation)
is just a false "works gospel". It is the BROAD WAY that leads
many "Christians" into destruction instead of the narrow way
that FEW Christians find, leading to eternal life.


If your "gospel" does not include the teaching of Jesus that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... then you know
it's just a false gospel of synergism, instead of the True Gospel
of Sovereign Grace.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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If you’re truly sincere in this, why not call out to Him in prayer for His mercy? Just pour your heart out to Him in repentance. That’s what the tax collector(publican in the KJV) did in Luke 18:9-14.


But the tax collector was "chosen" or "elected" to be saved
(before the earth was created) and his actions were the RESULT
of God "electing" him... not the CAUSE of his regeneration.


The Bible is very clear that some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved. They were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or to
"understand" or to "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven"
[Mark 4:11-12]


So your advice to JUST "call out to Him" not only contradicts
the Scriptures (both OT and NT) teaching that NO MAN will
ever "seek God" unless they are regenerated... it also
ignores the Biblical fact that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved.


If your gospel does NOT include the Biblical fact that JESUS TAUGHT
that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... then you can
know (absolutely) that you are not teaching the True Gospel.
At best you are teaching a partial truth.


Jim
 
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Sovereign Grace

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But the tax collector was "chosen" or "elected" to be saved
(before the earth was created) and his actions were the RESULT
of God "electing" him... not the CAUSE of his regeneration.


The Bible is very clear that some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved. They were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or to
"understand" or to "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven"
[Mark 4:11-12]


So your advice to JUST "call out to Him" not only contradicts
the Scriptures (both OT and NT) teaching that NO MAN will
ever "seek God" unless they are regenerated... it also
ignores the Biblical fact that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved.


If your gospel does NOT include the Biblical fact that JESUS TAUGHT
that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... then you can
know (absolutely) that you are not teaching the True Gospel.
At best you are teaching a partial truth.


Jim
First off, it’s not my gospel. Second, I’m a Calvinist and agree with you. But we are to tell ppl to repent and believe, and that’s what I’m telling him to do.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The Biblical teaching that all repentance is the result of regeneration
is not "Calvinistic"... it is what JESUS taught, 1500 years before
Calvin was born.


1500 years before Calvin was born Jesus taught that NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father first "draw" them and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He would lose NONE
of "His sheep". That is not "Calvinism"... it is JESUS [John 6]


The fact that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved is not
from Calvin... it is what JESUS taught 1500 years before Calvin
was even born. Jesus said [Mark 4:11-12] that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted"
or have their "sins forgiven". That is the Gospel (not Calvinism).


The Gospel of the Bible is a monergistic gospel (saved by God alone)
the heresy of synergism (man initiates or contributes to salvation)
is just a false "works gospel". It is the BROAD WAY that leads
many "Christians" into destruction instead of the narrow way
that FEW Christians find, leading to eternal life.


If your "gospel" does not include the teaching of Jesus that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... then you know
it's just a false gospel of synergism, instead of the True Gospel
of Sovereign Grace.
Jim
Biblical truth is that God's saving grace has appeared to everyone, Titus 2:11.

Biblical truith is that God wants everyone to be saved, 1 Tim 2:3-6.

Biblical truth is that Jesus Christ died for everyone, John 1:29, 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 John 4:10.

So the opinion that "some men were never meant to be saved" is fallacious and refuted by these clear verses.

However, God has always known how many would reject the free gift. But the gift was available anyway. That's grace.

So, people will end up in the lake of fire because they either outright rejected the free gift, or simply weren't interested in knowing about the gift.

And they all will have an eternity to think about that.
 
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FreeGrace2

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First off, it’s not my gospel. Second, I’m a Calvinist and agree with you. But we are to tell ppl to repent and believe, and that’s what I’m telling him to do.
Can you explain WHY you are to "tell ppl to repent and believe", if you agree with 5th kingdom's opinions?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Mark 1:15, Acts of the Apostles 17:30
This isn't an answer to my question of WHY you tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.

Yes, the Bible says so. But don't you realize that such a command is CONTRARY to your whole theology?

So, please explain how the command of what to tell ppl isn't contrary to your theology.

That's what I was getting at.

Thanks.

Just to be clear here, reformed theology believes that Christ didn't die for everyone, and God only unconditionally elects some to salvation, which means He chooses who will believe.

So, based on that part of your theology, now please explain HOW that belief isn't contrary to telling everyone to "repent and believe".
 
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Hammster

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Can you explain WHY you are to "tell ppl to repent and believe",
It’s commanded.


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:19-20
 
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5thKingdom

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Biblical truith is that God wants everyone to be saved, 1 Tim 2:3-6.


No, your "interpretation" of 1 Tim 2:3-6 contradicts DOZENS
of other Scriptures so we know (absolutely) your interpretation
is not Biblical and, therefore, incorrect.


You could try to HARMONIZE that passage with all the other
RELATED Scriptures... in order to find Biblical Truth. Or you can
continue to reject and intentionally ignore contradicting verses
and pretend that is not you designing your own personal "gospel".


Biblical truth is that Jesus Christ died for everyone, John 1:29, 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 Tim 4:10, 1 John 4:10.


No, your "interpretation" of those passages contradicts DOZENS
of other Scriptures so we know (absolutely) your interpretation
is not Biblical and, therefore, incorrect.


When you cite the passages you LIKE and you intentionally
ignore the passages that contradict your "interpretation" then
you (a) have an incorrect interpretation or (b) are proclaiming
all of the DOZENS of contradicting Scriptures are false....
and we KNOW (absolutely) the contradicting Scriptures
are not false, so your "interpretation" is false.


When you cite the passages you LIKE and intentionally ignore
the passages that contradict your "theory" then you are not
preaching the Gospel of the Bible at all... you are designing
your OWN personal gospel.


So the opinion that "some men were never meant to be saved" is fallacious and refuted by these clear verses.


So you think that JESUS was "fallacious" and incorrect when
HE SAID that some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
and to have their "sins forgiven"? That is interesting, you are actually
calling Jesus a liar. How do you "feel" about that?


Please tell me... how many OTHER quotes of Christ do you
reject? Do you believe 50% of what Christ said? Or 25%?
How much of the WORDS OF CHRIST do you reject?


If you have NO PROBLEM rejecting the WORDS OF CHRIST
then you can design whatever "gospel" you like. This is a very
common practice among nominal "Christians"... of course the only
PROBLEM is, as they (intentionally) reject the WORDS OF CHRIST
(instead of HARMONIZING all related Scriptures), they are only pretending
to themselves. Their pretending does not change the Gospel truth or
reality.


Again, since we KNOW the problem is NOT that Scripture
contradicts itself, then we also know (absolutely) that the
problem is with your "interpretation" of related passages and
your willingness to reject and intentionally ignore what Jesus said.


However, God has always known how many would reject the free gift. But the gift was available anyway. That's grace.


Of course the PROBLEM is the Gospel is not a "free offer"...
since the Gospel clearly says some men were CREATED to be
"vessels of destruction" [Rom 9] and some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved [Mark 4] and many of the
"Christians" in church are "children of Satan" [Mat 13]


Instead, the (true) Gospel is a proclamation of the FINISHED
work of Christ and a command for all men to repent.... even
though ONLY those "chosen" or "elected" will be "indwelt"
and ABLE to repent.


The (Biblical) fact that NO MAN will (really) "seek God" [Rom 3]
does not mean they are not accountable for their sins. And the
(Biblical) fact that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father
"draws" them and ALL MEN that are drawn "shall come" to Jesus,
and He will lose NONE of "His sheep"... does not mean that those
NOT "chosen" or "elected" to be saved are not accountable for
their sins.


You are preaching a "works gospel" which is foreign to the Bible.
You are pretending that MAN decides who is saved when the Bible
insists GOD decides who is to be saved, based ONLY on His Own
Good Pleasure and not on any "work" of man.


You follow a false synergistic gospel where MAN is sovereign
and autonomous "like God". The true monergistic Gospel is
that God is sovereign and "elected" who He would save... and
who He would CREATE to be "vessels of destruction".


So, when JESUS says that some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or have their
"sins forgiven"... your false gospel REQUIRES you to ignore the
WORDS OF CHRIST. Good luck with that.


So, people will end up in the lake of fire because they either outright rejected the free gift, or simply weren't interested in knowing about the gift.


That is your (false) interpretation which contradicts the
WORDS OF CHRIST that


(a) some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or
have their "sins forgiven" [Mark 4] and


(b) NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Jesus and He
loses NONE of "His sheep" [John 6] and


(c) God CREATES some men to be "vessels of destruction"
and other men to be "vessels of mercy" [Rom 9] and


(d) those who have their sins PAID by Christ are those "chosen"
or "elected" before the foundation of the world based ONLY on
God's Good Purpose and NOT on anything they would do... like accepting or rejecting some fictitious "free offer".


Tell me... were all the Gentiles living in the OT times able to be
saved? Were all the "tares" in the NT times (sown by Satan)
able to be saved... being "children of Satan"? Or were these
people NEVER MEANT to be saved?


Again, your confusion and false "gospel" is the result of accepting
the Scriptures you LIKE and rejecting or intentionally ignoring all
the passages you don't like. That is NOT following the Gospel of
the Bible at all... that is designing your own personal "gospel".


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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This isn't an answer to my question of WHY you tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.

Yes, the Bible says so. But don't you realize that such a command is CONTRARY to your whole theology?


Not only does the Bible command believers to preach the
Gospel of repentance... it also commands believers how to act
when that Gospel is rejected.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you,
when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for
a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be
more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment,
than for that city.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Just to be clear here, reformed theology believes that Christ didn't die for everyone, and God only unconditionally elects some to salvation, which means He chooses who will believe.

So, based on that part of your theology, now please explain HOW that belief isn't contrary to telling everyone to "repent and believe".


To be clear here, it is NOT Reformed theology that says Christ
came to save "His sheep" and dies for "His sheep"... it is the very
WORDS OF CHRIST that teaches this reality, about 1500 years
BEFORE reformed theology was first taught.


Secondly, your confusion is the result of CONFLATING the fact
that God commands all men to repent with them having the ability
to do so. The Bible is very clear that natural man (not regenerated)
cannot repent... deal with that.


You want to PRETEND that natural men (dead in sin)
are able to repent BEFORE they are regenerated...
but that is just you pretending, because if clearly
contradicts DOZENS of Scripture (that you ignore).


Jim
 
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Sovereign Grace

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This isn't an answer to my question of WHY you tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.

Yes, the Bible says so. But don't you realize that such a command is CONTRARY to your whole theology?

So, please explain how the command of what to tell ppl isn't contrary to your theology.

That's what I was getting at.

Thanks.

Just to be clear here, reformed theology believes that Christ didn't die for everyone, and God only unconditionally elects some to salvation, which means He chooses who will believe.

So, based on that part of your theology, now please explain HOW that belief isn't contrary to telling everyone to "repent and believe".
The Bible commands ppl to repent and believe in the gospel. Contrary to what anti-reformed folk say, we believe in telling ppl to repent and believe in the gospel. We also believe in telling ppl to flee to Christ. We don’t know who the elect are and we speak to everyone and tell them the good news.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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To be clear here, it is NOT Reformed theology that says Christ
came to save "His sheep" and dies for "His sheep"... it is the very
WORDS OF CHRIST that teaches this reality, about 1500 years
BEFORE reformed theology was first taught.


Secondly, your confusion is the result of CONFLATING the fact
that God commands all men to repent with them having the ability
to do so. The Bible is very clear that natural man (not regenerated)
cannot repent... deal with that.


You want to PRETEND that natural men (dead in sin)
are able to repent BEFORE they are regenerated...
but that is just you pretending, because if clearly
contradicts DOZENS of Scripture (that you ignore).


Jim
He has man as the one who controls his destiny, when it’s God. He has tried to take God off His throne and place sinful, rebellious, and God-hater man on the throne. He will deny this, but it’s their theology’s logical conclusion.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It’s commanded.
Calvinism believes that Christ didn't die for the "non-elect". That God chooses (elects) who will believe.

Yet, God's word commands that believers tell others to repent and believe. Hm. Something's wrong here. Yet, it seems Calvinists are totally unaware of the problem.

If Christ didn't die for someone, it is totally worthless and irrelevant to even give them the gospel message.

So the question is, WHY would God command His "elect" to give the gospel to those He never intended to choose to believe?

But, all Calvinists can respond with is the fact that it is commanded.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:19-20
I would expect that you should know that the Great Commission (GC) was given specifically to 11 men? Not the entire group, numbering about 120 (Acts 1:15).

So, the GC isn't commanded of anyone today, except those with the gift of teaching.
 
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