Matthew 24, the divide

TribulationSigns

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You can't even recognize Israel over there plain as day as fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

No, national Israel is not what is prophesied. Sorry. You got wrong Israel.

What about Ezekiel 38/39, who does Gog/Magog attack in the latter days, latter years, 7 years before Jesus returns and is speaking Himself in Ezekiel 39:21-22 and the rest of Ezekiel 39?

I already explained Ezekiel 38/39 here many times before. You either forgot or in denial. If you want some refreshment, look for it in the search box.

Have a good evening. :)
 
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Levaire

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Matthew 24:15-31 is not first century though, although Luke 21:20-24 is first century.
In Luke 21:24, the Jews are led away, forced into the nations, until the time of the gentiles ends.
In Luke 21:20-21, the sign for that generation to watch for, to flee to the mountains for safety, is when they see Jerusalem compassed with armies.

Aaahh.. I see. Okay, consider this. Matthew and Luke (and Mark) are considered the synoptic gospels because they're so in sync with one another, right? A lot of overlap in their accounts of the life and words of Jesus. I think what you're getting caught on is the difference between the Jewish idioms used in Matthew (who is writing to a Jewish audience) and Luke's approach to the Gentiles (where he had to spell things out and soften Jewish figures of speech they wouldn't understand.)

For instance, Matthew 24 says, "...the abomination that brings desolation...standing in the holy place..." but Luke 21:20 makes it clear, "...when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..." Both passages are speaking of the same impending destruction, however Matthew uses an expression first-century Jews would be familiar with and Luke spells it out for his first-century, emerging-from-paganism Gentile audience.

Differently, in Matthew 24:15-31, end times, the sign for the end times generation to watch for is when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

This same phenomenon is occurring here, where we have the sun, moon and stars being put out. If one doesn't understand the "day of the Lord" language, a reader ends up thinking this is literal. I did a whole study on the "day of the Lord" you might find interesting but unfortunately, I'm too young w Christian Forums to link it. You can Google [day of the lord levaire] and it should come up. Key Scripture you'll want to explore:

> Isaiah 13:9-11, we see judgment coming to Babylon at the hand of the Medes fulfilled in 539 BC
> Nahum 1:3, we have judgment coming to Nineveh at the hands of the Babylonians and Medes, as fulfilled in 612 BC
> Jeremiah 46:10 and Ezekiel 30, where the prophets lament judgment coming to Egypt at the hand of the Babylonians

Finally, still more Old Testament examples of the day of the Lord can be found in: Zechariah 14, Obadiah and Isaiah 34 (judgment over Edom), Lamentations 2:22, and Malachi 4:5-6 (foreshadowing the fall of Israel by 70AD.)

So, by the time we get to Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, we should be well-versed on Jewish apocryphal language, right? Well, I certainly never was before last year. But then again, I didn't grow up with the Word as a central study in my life like a citizen of Israel would have in the first century. I grew up in the West, 2,000 years removed, so many of the cultural allusions are lost to me and have to be learned in order to arrive at the original context and meaning.

All this to say, I don't believe Jesus departs from warning His disciples of the incoming doom heading for Israel and Jerusalem to drop in a tidbit that won't come to fruition for thousands of years. (Though He actually seems to end up there in Matthew 25.) He was speaking to THAT generation and His words were fulfilled within a Biblical generation 40 years later when the Roman armies razed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Word is AMAZING!!

Which the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 is time of the end in text.

It sure seems like it is! Your allusion to Daniel 12 messed me up a bit, but not because of a connection with the Olivet Discourse. I see Daniel 12 being connected to Revelation 11 and 13:7, so now I'm sifting through that. Thank you! Matthew
 
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Douggg

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Aaahh.. I see. Okay, consider this. Matthew and Luke (and Mark) are considered the synoptic gospels because they're so in sync with one another, right? A lot of overlap in their accounts of the life and words of Jesus. I think what you're getting caught on is the difference between the Jewish idioms used in Matthew (who is writing to a Jewish audience) and Luke's approach to the Gentiles (where he had to spell things out and soften Jewish figures of speech they wouldn't understand.)

For instance, Matthew 24 says, "...the abomination that brings desolation...standing in the holy place..." but Luke 21:20 makes it clear, "...when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..." Both passages are speaking of the same impending destruction, however Matthew uses an expression first-century Jews would be familiar with and Luke spells it out for his first-century, emerging-from-paganism Gentile audience.



This same phenomenon is occurring here, where we have the sun, moon and stars being put out. If one doesn't understand the "day of the Lord" language, a reader ends up thinking this is literal. I did a whole study on the "day of the Lord" you might find interesting but unfortunately, I'm too young w Christian Forums to link it. You can Google [day of the lord levaire] and it should come up. Key Scripture you'll want to explore:

> Isaiah 13:9-11, we see judgment coming to Babylon at the hand of the Medes fulfilled in 539 BC
> Nahum 1:3, we have judgment coming to Nineveh at the hands of the Babylonians and Medes, as fulfilled in 612 BC
> Jeremiah 46:10 and Ezekiel 30, where the prophets lament judgment coming to Egypt at the hand of the Babylonians

Finally, still more Old Testament examples of the day of the Lord can be found in: Zechariah 14, Obadiah and Isaiah 34 (judgment over Edom), Lamentations 2:22, and Malachi 4:5-6 (foreshadowing the fall of Israel by 70AD.)

So, by the time we get to Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, we should be well-versed on Jewish apocryphal language, right? Well, I certainly never was before last year. But then again, I didn't grow up with the Word as a central study in my life like a citizen of Israel would have in the first century. I grew up in the West, 2,000 years removed, so many of the cultural allusions are lost to me and have to be learned in order to arrive at the original context and meaning.

All this to say, I don't believe Jesus departs from warning His disciples of the incoming doom heading for Israel and Jerusalem to drop in a tidbit that won't come to fruition for thousands of years. (Though He actually seems to end up there in Matthew 25.) He was speaking to THAT generation and His words were fulfilled within a Biblical generation 40 years later when the Roman armies razed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Word is AMAZING!!



It sure seems like it is! Your allusion to Daniel 12 messed me up a bit, but not because of a connection with the Olivet Discourse. I see Daniel 12 being connected to Revelation 11 and 13:7, so now I'm sifting through that. Thank you! Matthew
In Luke 21:20-24, after the destruction caused by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, the Jews are led away into the nations in verse 24. First century.

Differently in Matthew 24:15-31, after Jesus has returned, the Jews are gathered back to Israel in verse 31. End times.

This is verified in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus himself speaking in the text, having returned to earth. Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

________________________________________________

btw, if you talk to a knowledgeable Jew who's religion is Judaism, what they call "the final redemption" is the completion of the gathering of all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel.

Most Christians are not aware of that view in Judaism.
 
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Timtofly

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All this to say, I don't believe Jesus departs from warning His disciples of the incoming doom heading for Israel and Jerusalem to drop in a tidbit that won't come to fruition for thousands of years. (Though He actually seems to end up there in Matthew 25.) He was speaking to THAT generation and His words were fulfilled within a Biblical generation 40 years later when the Roman armies razed Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Word is AMAZING!!
It is and yet no one in the NT claimed 70AD fulfilled anything. Why is that point extra biblical and not amazing at all? The only one who mentions it is Josephus. A Jew who wrote to make his bosses look great. Some even claim his bosses were Antichrists. You think at least one writer would have said something in passing because they sure made it sound like it was always soon, but yet to happen. Amazing how God has waited 1950 years and still it is soon.
 
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