Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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claninja

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The Revelation is the final Revelation of God, so yes, it complements and completes all prophecy which came before it, and all Revelation which came before it.

I would agree it compliments prophecy, but IMHO, only if interpreted through the lens of the Gospels/Epistles, otherwise personal interpretation abounds, such as it does today, where there hundreds of different interpretation on Revelation. In order to reduce personal interpretation, IMHO, it should be interpreted in light of the gospels and epistles, and not the other way around.

So as a result of what I put into my OP in this thread, and as a result of what my mind and my thinking and my brain causes me to see, what I see is that when the saints are resurrected at the time of the appearance of Christ in glory, the rest who had not died in Christ, remain dead for a thousand years. These are only delivered up from death and hades after the thousand years

Based on interpreting this passage through the gospels and epistles, and not the other way around, I would disagree.

According to Jesus, the dead were living "now" by hearing the voice of the son. And a time was coming when those who would hear his voice would be raised, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I believe these 2 resurrections are the meaning of Revelation 20.

John 5:25-29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Such is found in the teachings of Paul, that the being born again of the believer is by partaking in the resurrection of Christ, who was the first resurrection.

Ephesians 2:4-7 Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent

And a future resurrection of the just and unjust

Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

As such the Gospel/Epistolic narrative, is that Christ is the first resurrection, and those that partake in it are raised to life to never die, who will be resurrected bodily to life.

There is no Gospel/Epistolic narrative that teaches 2 future resurrections of different groups separated by a period of time, other than Christ's resurrection followed by a future resurrection of the good and bad.

Any such resurrection that comes after Christ's, would not be "first", for Christ was the first.

(and after Satan is loosed [again] at the close of the thousand years, and has gathered his Gog-Magog armies against the camp of the saints, and these have been destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven; and after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades are them destroyed in the lake of fire where by this time, Satan is and the beast & false prophet are.

There is no Gospel/Epistolic narrative that satan is loosed "twice". There is only evidence that he is cast and coming after the cross, and to be soon crushed under the churches feet (romans 16:20)

Because of this, and because I view the 1,000 years as being fulfilled at the first advent, I view the following passages as parrallel: Satan's casting out of heaven to only have a short time = Satan being released from the abyss to only have a short time.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
 
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Timtofly

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How much scripture has to be ignored to make your statements above work?
I do not have to ignore any. If you take verses out of context, I can ignore all that private interpretation. You ignore my interpretation all the time. You also avoid answering any direct questions about Scripture unless you can twist the words and make them fit your theology. Case in point the fact that there is no break in context from 19 to 20. There is no resurrection like Revelation 20:4 found any where in the life of Christ, prior to, at, or after His death on the Cross. The Resurrection at the Cross that was bodily and physical was the OT believers coming out of their graves when Jesus set them free from Abraham's bosom. They ascended to Paradise with Jesus Christ; that Sunday, not 40 days later. Revelation 20, brings back the ability to populate the earth. The Cross was the bodily resurrection to populate Paradise. The church is complete in seal 6. Those living on earth during the Lord's Day (1000 years) are chosen by the 144K and Jesus Christ. They die, and after the battle of Armageddon, they are resurrected. They are the sheep separated from the goats. They are the wheat separated from the tares. They are the final harvest, placed in death, similar to Noah and 8 souls placed in the ark, until new life post Flood. Revelation 20 is a physical resurrection out of the temporary "ark" of death. This time Adam's flesh and blood had to die, to get rid of the sinful body of corruption. Call that my private opinion, interpretation, or what not. It does not change any Scripture to make it fit, like Amil theology has to do.
 
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Zao is life

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I would agree it compliments prophecy, but IMHO, only if interpreted through the lens of the Gospels/Epistles, otherwise personal interpretation abounds, such as it does today, where there hundreds of different interpretation on Revelation. In order to reduce personal interpretation, IMHO, it should be interpreted in light of the gospels and epistles, and not the other way around.



Based on interpreting this passage through the gospels and epistles, and not the other way around, I would disagree.

According to Jesus, the dead were living "now" by hearing the voice of the son. And a time was coming when those who would hear his voice would be raised, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I believe these 2 resurrections are the meaning of Revelation 20.

John 5:25-29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Such is found in the teachings of Paul, that the being born again of the believer is by partaking in the resurrection of Christ, who was the first resurrection.

Ephesians 2:4-7 Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent

And a future resurrection of the just and unjust

Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

As such the Gospel/Epistolic narrative, is that Christ is the first resurrection, and those that partake in it are raised to life to never die, who will be resurrected bodily to life.

There is no Gospel/Epistolic narrative that teaches 2 future resurrections of different groups separated by a period of time, other than Christ's resurrection followed by a future resurrection of the good and bad.

Any such resurrection that comes after Christ's, would not be "first", for Christ was the first.



There is no Gospel/Epistolic narrative that satan is loosed "twice". There is only evidence that he is cast and coming after the cross, and to be soon crushed under the churches feet (romans 16:20)

Because of this, and because I view the 1,000 years as being fulfilled at the first advent, I view the following passages as parrallel: Satan's casting out of heaven to only have a short time = Satan being released from the abyss to only have a short time.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Not that I agree with what you say regarding the thousand years of Revelation 20, but interesting that there was a thousand years from king David to Christ.
 
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Timtofly

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Except there is only ONE USE of "the Lord's day" in the bible and it is NOT in Rev. 20. Are you calling the "Day of the Lord" by an unscriptural name?
Are all the OT believers and NT authors calling the Day of the Lord by an unscriptural name? They are the Scriptures, no? Check people's interpretation not God's Word. I only use it in context and Peter tells us not to be ignorant.

The Lord's Day comes in wrath, on the wickedness of Adam's living offspring. That Satan is allowed 42 months can only mean "there were not enough righteous found in 'Sodom'", like in the days of Lot. Does no one get the point Abraham (the church) pleaded with God over the souls of Sodom? This side of the Cross, God can still heal Nations. It is the church who holds the keys of what is bound and what is loosed. Instead of humans departing with God, they departed away from God, and not even the church has the faith to repent, humble themselves, and turn from wickedness. Lot was a single believer, but represents the apostate church. Is there only going to be a single person in the church left alive to rapture?

It was not Abraham's job to heal Sodom. It was Lot's responsibility, who should have prayed, humbled himself, turned from his own wickedness, so God could heal Sodom.
 
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BABerean2

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I do not have to ignore any. If you take verses out of context, I can ignore all that private interpretation. You ignore my interpretation all the time. You also avoid answering any direct questions about Scripture unless you can twist the words and make them fit your theology. Case in point the fact that there is no break in context from 19 to 20. There is no resurrection like Revelation 20:4 found any where in the life of Christ, prior to, at, or after His death on the Cross. The Resurrection at the Cross that was bodily and physical was the OT believers coming out of their graves when Jesus set them free from Abraham's bosom. They ascended to Paradise with Jesus Christ; that Sunday, not 40 days later. Revelation 20, brings back the ability to populate the earth. The Cross was the bodily resurrection to populate Paradise. The church is complete in seal 6. Those living on earth during the Lord's Day (1000 years) are chosen by the 144K and Jesus Christ. They die, and after the battle of Armageddon, they are resurrected. They are the sheep separated from the goats. They are the wheat separated from the tares. They are the final harvest, placed in death, similar to Noah and 8 souls placed in the ark, until new life post Flood. Revelation 20 is a physical resurrection out of the temporary "ark" of death. This time Adam's flesh and blood had to die, to get rid of the sinful body of corruption. Call that my private opinion, interpretation, or what not. It does not change any Scripture to make it fit, like Amil theology has to do.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "mighty men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.
 
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BABerean2

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Your scripture in Matthew does not say no mortals, or even hint of it.


Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


How many mortals are left alive at the end of the verse above?


.
 
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Zao is life

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Why would a reversal or removal of the curse mean "no mortals?" Can you find that in scripture?

Your scripture in Matthew does not say no mortals, or even hint of it.

Who ever said there would be "no evil?" There will be natural people with spirits separated from God, but RULED by God. That explains why, when Satan is loosed again, after being bound for a thousand years, that he convinces many to rebel.
You have strange ideas.
This whole "removal of the curse" idea is in any case moot. It's made because some people link the NHNE to "eternity" and to them, it all lies "in the future". How can eternity lie in the future?

Time only exists in the creation: The only time that exists in the universe right now at this very moment, is right now, this very moment. The future does not exist right now, and the past neither. This moment becomes another, which becomes another, and another.

The only reason we can measure time is because it exists in relation to the activities and events that happen in the creation, in the universe - the cycles of birth, life and death of stars and planets and galaxies and of life on earth, but the earth is in the exact same position in its orbit round the sun right now, this very moment, that is was 365.333 days ago, and that it will be in 365.333 days from now.

If the air is "no time" (a.k.a "eternity"), then time is one aspect of the contents of the gas balloon floating around in the air.

The Kingdom of Christ exists now in the world, has existed for 2,000 years and will exist forever. He is the One who is, who was and who is to come, the Almighty. The universe has always been the Kingdom which belongs to God.

If the King allows an adversary to cause havoc in His Kingdom, then it's because

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do."
Isaiah 55:8-11

If the King of a Kingdom wants to prevent His adversary from creating havoc in His Kingdom, He would need to either bind His adversary and lock him in a dungeon, OR destroy him.

If a murderer who has been in prison for 20 years claims he is rehabilitated and pleads for his release, promising to go and serve humanity afterward, and is released on probation to see what he will do, but then goes out and murders someone again, would the state be just if it gives the man the death penalty the second time around?

Would our King need to bind His adversary and lock Him in a dungeon if the King wanted to rule over His Kingdom unhindered by an adversary?

If the king released His adversary again on probation after a thousand years to see what he will do, and then destroys His adversary in the lake of fire after His adversary goes out doing the exact same thing, would our King be just?

The Kingdom of Christ has already come. The Kingdom of Christ is coming. The Kingdom of Christ just IS: Christ is He who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. The NHNE is linked to "no time" (a.k.a "eternity"). Eternity is not coming in the future. It IS, it WAS and it IS TO COME.
 
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Zao is life

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This whole "removal of the curse" idea expressed by some is moot. The curse has already been removed by Christ, and the moot point is only made because some people link the NHNE to "eternity" and to them, it all lies "in the future".

How can eternity lie in the future? Time only exists in the creation: The only time that exists in the universe right now at this very moment, is right now, this very moment. The future does not exist right now, and the past neither. This moment becomes another, which becomes another, and another.

The only reason we can measure time is because it exists in relation to the activities and events that happen in the creation, in the universe - the cycles of birth, life and death of stars and planets and galaxies and of life on earth, but the earth is in the exact same position in its orbit round the sun right now, this very moment, that is was 365.333 days ago, and that it will be in 365.333 days from now.

If the air is "no time" (a.k.a "eternity"), then time is one aspect of the contents of the gas balloon floating around in the air.

The Kingdom of Christ exists now in the world, has existed for 2,000 years and will exist forever. He is the One who is, who was and who is to come, the Almighty. The universe has always been the Kingdom which belongs to God.

If the King allows an adversary to cause havoc in His Kingdom, then it's because

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do."
Isaiah 55:8-11

If the King of a Kingdom wants to prevent His adversary from creating havoc in His Kingdom, He would need to either bind His adversary and lock him in a dungeon, OR destroy him.

If a murderer who has been in prison for 20 years claims he is rehabilitated and pleads for his release, promising to go and serve humanity afterward, and is released on probation to see what he will do, but then goes out and murders someone again, would the state be just if it gives the man the death penalty the second time around?

Would our King need to bind His adversary and lock Him in a dungeon if the King wanted to rule over His Kingdom unhindered by an adversary?

If the king released His adversary again on probation after a thousand years to see what he will do, and then destroys His adversary in the lake of fire after His adversary goes out doing the exact same thing, would our King be just?

The Kingdom of Christ has already come. The Kingdom of Christ is coming. The Kingdom of Christ just IS: Christ is He who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. The NHNE is linked to "no time" (a.k.a "eternity"). Eternity is not coming in the future. It IS, it WAS and it IS TO COME.

The removal of the curse was accomplished and completed by Christ Himself in His death and resurrection. It's not something that "will only be in the future when the NHNE comes".
 
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Timtofly

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Why would a reversal or removal of the curse mean "no mortals?" Can you find that in scripture?

Your scripture in Matthew does not say no mortals, or even hint of it.

Who ever said there would be "no evil?" There will be natural people with spirits separated from God, but RULED by God. That explains why, when Satan is loosed again, after being bound for a thousand years, that he convinces many to rebel.
You have strange ideas.
It is a Lord's Day, separated and Holy unto God. It is not part of the 6000 years of corruption from Adam's disobedience. The knowledge of good and evil is removed. Sinful nature is removed. Death by sin is removed. Disobedience is given the death penalty. The rod of iron. It is not like sheep that stray and are rescued. If you take the punishment of a whole nation where rain is withheld for a month, those in that nation will not tolerate those who cause the discomfort. But such judgment only happens after many generations. It will take years to rebuild at first. We do not know how many besides the 144K Jewish males, who will be resurrected. Obviously more than the 8 at the time of Noah. The Nations were rebuilt then after 4 or 5 generations, no? This start may be in the million range, given that we already have 144K. There will be remnants from all the Nations to rebuild their particular Nation, holding to the fact that is how the OT prophets viewed this time. It could be totally different than how they put their visions into the written Word of God. I can only imagine their attempt at describing today's living conditions, and then try to put it down to make sense. Airplanes being wheels in wheels in the sky??
 
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Timtofly

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I would agree that it does not prove the traditional Amil position.

Although, to be clear, I don't hold to the traditional Amil position, that the 1,000 years is symbolic is the time between the 1st and 2nd advent.



1.) I definitely believe Satan was bound at Christ's 1st advent, otherwise, Jesus would not have been casting out demons.

Matthew 12:22-29 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first binds the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

2.) Jesus destroyed the works of the devil at his 1st advent. I relate this to the binding

Hebrews 2:14-15 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery

1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

3.) Through Christ, the righteous standards of God are met in us. I relate this to the binding.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

4) And because of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father, Satan, the accuser, was cast out. I relate this to the binding.

John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.


5.) Therefore, Satan can no longer accuse us because the righteous requirements of God are now met in us through Christ. I relate this to the binding.

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Revelation 12:10 For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.

HOWEVER, the NT is also clear that after being cast out at Christ's ascension, Satan was prowling, persecuting, deceiving, and hindering the Church through his servants.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1 thessalonians 2:16-18 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!
But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

Revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour





I believe the 1,000 years was used in the parable, given to John in Revelation 20, to represent the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, for it was 1,000 years between the time of David, the type/shadow, and Christ, the anti type/reality. According to Peter, it is through the Resurrection that that God fulfilled the promise to David that his descendant would sit on the Throne.

Acts 2:30-31 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

IMHO, the millennium is not a time span between 2 points, but parabolically points to the fulfillment of Davidic Covenant through Christ's ministry, death, FIRST resurrection, ascension, and casting out/binding of satan. Those that partake in this FIRST resurrection, overcome the accuser and the world, are no longer hurt by the 2nd death, and are a kingdom of priests to God. This is found fulfilled in the gospel and epistolic narrative for those who are in Christ. Therefore, I interpret this parable in revelation through the lens of the Gospels and Epistles, and not the other way around.

It is when 1,000 years are fulfilled that satan is released to deceive the nations.


Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison

According to the Gospel and Epistolic narrative, it is at the fulfillment of Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension that Satan is cast out to persecute, prowl, deceive, and hinder the Church, whose hope was that satan was to be soon crushed under their feet.


John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.




In post 983, you stated the 2nd death only takes place after satan's destruction :

"Take note that the second death only takes place after the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire"

Revelation is a symbolic book and it tells us that the lake of fire IS the 2nd death.


Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Therefore, if Revelation 20 Chronologically comes after Revelation 19:11-21, then the 2nd death does not only occur at the after the destruction of Satan, as you stated, but also occurs prior to the destruction of satan, at the destruction of the beast and false prophet.

However, Amils typically agree with your statement in post 983, and view the destruction of the beast and false prophet in revelation 19 as parallel to that of the satan in revelation 20
This sounds more like preterist than Amil.

There was a physical resurrection 1000 years before the Cross?
 
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Timtofly

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Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "mighty men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
Twisting Scripture cannot work. Where does John in Revelation claim that God or The Lamb leave after the 6th seal? No Where!

Chapter 14 is the whole period of 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The 144k are sealed on the earth at the 6th seal. They stay on the earth with Christ. Christ and the 144K stay until mid week. The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event. Sunday to Sunday. On Wednesday of the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 13 claims Christ and the 144K are overcome. That is symbolic of the fact Christ and the 144K withdraw from Jerusalem for 42 months. They, Christ and the 144K, return for the battle of Armageddon. That is the literal chronological chain of events, as given by John. No private interpretation of recap, which twist Scripture claiming that John fails at Chronology! John is a perfect witness of events, and modern prophets twisting God’s Word fail at Chronology, because it can only be a guessing game to them, since it has not happened yet to those just guessing! I would add, decieved by Satan, since reality we are taught in school is science fiction. It is knowledge, so called, that is based on deception and not the truth. We think we have things figured out by mathematical calculations. Math is just one big matrix that does not even exist in God's created reality. God is rather "mundane" compared to Satan's "more better" way of death in the universe. Satan gives us a spectacular universe. Good gives us a cube of 3 dimensions bound by finite time of 8 days, 8000 years.
 
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iamlamad

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It is a Lord's Day, separated and Holy unto God. It is not part of the 6000 years of corruption from Adam's disobedience. The knowledge of good and evil is removed. Sinful nature is removed. Death by sin is removed. Disobedience is given the death penalty. The rod of iron. It is not like sheep that stray and are rescued. If you take the punishment of a whole nation where rain is withheld for a month, those in that nation will not tolerate those who cause the discomfort. But such judgment only happens after many generations. It will take years to rebuild at first. We do not know how many besides the 144K Jewish males, who will be resurrected. Obviously more than the 8 at the time of Noah. The Nations were rebuilt then after 4 or 5 generations, no? This start may be in the million range, given that we already have 144K. There will be remnants from all the Nations to rebuild their particular Nation, holding to the fact that is how the OT prophets viewed this time. It could be totally different than how they put their visions into the written Word of God. I can only imagine their attempt at describing today's living conditions, and then try to put it down to make sense. Airplanes being wheels in wheels in the sky??

All I am saying is, why not call it what GOD Has called it: the "Day of the Lord?" Most bible experts, as I have shown you before, the "commentators" say "the Lord's day" was what early Christians started calling Sunday.

There is no verse that places the 144,000 on earth - whether in natural bodies or resurrection bodies. But, scripture is not silent:

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Without a doubt, those that flee are from Jacob and they are in natural bodies. Why would God deliver them if His intent was later to kill them? They must enter the Millennial reign in natural bodies.

Rev. 12:
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


AGain, without a doubt, the vast majority of these fleeing will be Jews and Hebrews. Again, why would God supernaturally protect and feed them if His intent was to later kill them? They must enter the Millennial reign in natural bodies.

Then, there are the sheep from the judgment of the nations: it seems they too will enter into the Millennial reign in natural bodies. The bible gives no hint otherwise.

It seems we are in agreement that God's intent is to repopulate the earth during the Millennial kingdom.
 
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Timtofly

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I clicked agree because I agree with the question.
Would the Sadducees be Amil, because they rejected a resurrection as well? The Messiah would come and that would be the end. Eternity would start immediately.
 
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Timtofly

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All I am saying is, why not call it what GOD Has called it: the "Day of the Lord?" Most bible experts, as I have shown you before, the "commentators" say "the Lord's day" was what early Christians started calling Sunday.

There is no verse that places the 144,000 on earth - whether in natural bodies or resurrection bodies. But, scripture is not silent:

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Without a doubt, those that flee are from Jacob and they are in natural bodies. Why would God deliver them if His intent was later to kill them? They must enter the Millennial reign in natural bodies.

Rev. 12:
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


AGain, without a doubt, the vast majority of these fleeing will be Jews and Hebrews. Again, why would God supernaturally protect and feed them if His intent was to later kill them? They must enter the Millennial reign in natural bodies.

Then, there are the sheep from the judgment of the nations: it seems they too will enter into the Millennial reign in natural bodies. The bible gives no hint otherwise.

It seems we are in agreement that God's intent is to repopulate the earth during the Millennial kingdom.
It would depend on sentence structure, no?
 
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Twisting Scripture cannot work. Where does John in Revelation claim that God or The Lamb leave after the 6th seal? No Where!

Chapter 14 is the whole period of 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The 144k are sealed on the earth at the 6th seal. They stay on the earth with Christ. Christ and the 144K stay until mid week. The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event. Sunday to Sunday. On Wednesday of the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 13 claims Christ and the 144K are overcome. That is symbolic of the fact Christ and the 144K withdraw from Jerusalem for 42 months. They, Christ and the 144K, return for the battle of Armageddon.

That is the literal chronological chain of events, as given by John. No private interpretation of recap, which twist Scripture claiming that John fails at Chronology! John is a perfect witness of events, and modern prophets twisting God’s Word fail at Chronology, because it can only be a guessing game to them, since it has not happened yet to those just guessing! I would add, decieved by Satan, since reality we are taught in school is science fiction. It is knowledge, so called, that is based on deception and not the truth. We think we have things figured out by mathematical calculations. Math is just one big matrix that does not even exist in God's created reality. God is rather "mundane" compared to Satan's "more better" way of death in the universe. Satan gives us a spectacular universe. Good gives us a cube of 3 dimensions bound by finite time of 8 days, 8000 years.
Where on earth do you come up with this stuff? You glorify Satan over God? I am turning you in.

Chapter 14 is the whole period of 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. NO! Chapter 14 follows chapter 13 as a midpoint chapter, where God warns people not to take the mark, which is just about to be enforced. You cannot hope to come up with true and ignore TIME and TIMING in Revelation. By the time of chapter 14, after the midpoint, all 7 trumpets will have sounded and they will now be HISTORY; past.

The 144k are sealed on the earth at the 6th seal. NO! Between the 6th seal and 7th seal. How long will it take Jesus to open a seal? SECONDS or less. However, the EVENTS that will come when Jesus opens that seal may take a month or more. How long will an earthquake last? Seconds? at the most, Minutes. But a total eclipse of the sun, then a total eclipse of the moon will take perhaps a month.

The 144k ... stay on the earth with Christ. NO! "Christ is not on the earth at this time. How in the world do you come up with such nonsense? He comes for the rapture, just before Wrath, collects His bride, and returns to heaven. See John 14. How long will the rapture events take? Maybe milliseconds. And the second time John sees the 144,000 they are in heaven (chapter 14). They WILL be on the earth during the first half of the 70th week: during the first 6 trumpets.

Christ and the 144K stay until mid week. Show us ANY scripture anywhere that even HINTS of Christ on earth during the first half of the week. It does not exist for this theory is MYTH. I must say, you have the wildest imagination I have seen in a long time on these forums. You are HALF right here: the 144,000 will be on earth for the first half of the week.

The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event. Sunday to Sunday. Can you show us this in scripture? I have never seen even a hint of such a thing. On earth we do a property closing in an hour or two.

On Wednesday of the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 13 claims Christ and the 144K are overcome. Christ will be in heaven during this time. This is just wild human imagination. How in the world is the Resurrected Christ, the second person of the Godhead, going to be "overcome?" He totally and thoroughly defeated Satan and made him a "bold display" (AMP) of defeat. Next, there is no scripture anywhere that the 144,000 are ever defeated. This is just more imagination.

That is symbolic of the fact Christ and the 144K withdraw from Jerusalem for 42 months. WRONG! More imagination.

They, Christ and the 144K, return for the battle of Armageddon. Christ comes for Armageddon, that is sure. But so will "the armies" of heaven. Since the 144,000 follow Him anywhere, they will be included in the armies. But most experts say the church and the OT saints will return in those armies.

That is the literal chronological chain of events, as given by John. The truth is, this sentence is your wild imagination of the chain of events.
 
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Zao is life

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Would the Sadducees be Amil, because they rejected a resurrection as well? The Messiah would come and that would be the end. Eternity would start immediately.
Good point. They may have been for that reason.
 
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Timtofly

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AGain, without a doubt, the vast majority of these fleeing will be Jews and Hebrews. Again, why would God supernaturally protect and feed them if His intent was to later kill them? They must enter the Millennial reign in natural bodies
This time around the only part of "the woman" would be the 144K.

Revelation 12 is a history lesson and too much guessing at the ambiguity. They fled once, physically in 70AD. The next would be spiritual, no? The 144K are spiritually sealed. Not glorified, but the firstfruits of those resurrected physically after the battle of Armageddon. If one is not dead, one cannot be resurrected. The 144k are changed when they are sealed back in Revelation 7. They are the only living changed without dying according to anything John wrote.

Applying verses that in context belong to the church alone seems wrong. The only examples we have are the 12 disciples. They were chosen, but not sealed. They could "walk away" like Judas. And even Peter tried to walk away, but repented. The church was still ongoing then. At the 6th seal, the rapture, the church is completed, finished, whole, restored, and glorified. Literally, the only "saints" can be 144K Jewish male virgins. "Believers" die: the sheep die, the wheat dies. Those beheaded by Satan, definitely die. All have to die physically , so they can be resurrected physically, no?

Does Revelation 20 state any one of Adam's flesh is changed while alive? Nope! The only change is being resurrected from being physically dead, then judged, then made alive. Saying there are survivors is adding personal speculation to the text, when it is clearly NOT NEEDED. The text gives the means of change.
 
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Timtofly

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Show us ANY scripture anywhere that even HINTS of Christ on earth during the first half of the week. It does not exist for this theory is MYTH. I must say, you have the wildest imagination I have seen in a long time on these forums. You are HALF right here: the 144,000 will be on earth for the first half of the week.
Revelation 14:4

"they follow the Lamb wherever he goes;"

If the Lamb is not here during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders, then they are not either. You cannot have them on earth and the Lamb in heaven if Revelation 14 is true.

This is the final harvest carried out by the Lamb, Himself, not the 144K by themselves.


Why do you do all the answering for the Amil? Have you joined them? They refuse to answer simple questions and then you give them an excuse not to even bother.
 
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This time around the only part of "the woman" would be the 144K.

I wish I knew how to cancel a post once I've clicked on reply even more than I wish I knew who is going to win the US elections.

My apologies, I never meant to click on Reply. This post cancelled.
 
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