want to talk about OSAS?

RickReads said:

My issue is with the belief that God forces the Holy Ghost on people who haven`t repented, who don`t believe, and aren`t seeking.

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If you believe its because God has drawn you to Him. You are incapable of coming to Christ unless the spirit draws you as per Jesus teaching in John.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got?

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

how can one dead in sin who hates God and loves sin, a slave to sin choose God since they are in bondage to sin ?

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

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Choose God is false doctrine. Christ must choose us.

RickReads said:

Choose God is false doctrine. Christ must choose us.

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agree 100 %

Jesus is YHWH said:

If you believe its because God has drawn you to Him. You are incapable of coming to Christ unless the spirit draws you as per Jesus teaching in John.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

John 12:30-32
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part.

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing. got?

hope this helps !!!

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Called does not mean chosen. You are representing Calvinism poorly.

RickReads said:

Called does not mean chosen. You are representing Calvinism poorly.

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I haven't mentioned 'calvin" you did.

Jesus is YHWH said:

I haven't mentioned 'calvin" you did.

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Ok, sorry I should have kept your secret safe. I was thinking you admitted it, wasn`t expecting you to want to hide it.

RickReads said:

Ok, sorry I should have kept your secret safe. I was thinking you admitted it, wasn`t expecting you to want to hide it.

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do you believe in a rapture of believers ? yes or no

Jesus is YHWH said:

do you believe in a rapture of believers ? yes or no

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Not sure what this has to do with it. The word rapture isn`t in my Bible. Now you`re being fun again

RickReads said:

Not sure what this has to do with it. The word rapture isn`t in my Bible. Now you`re being fun again

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ok do you believe that there will be saints who meet Christ is the air while they are alive and be removed from this earth before He pours out His wrath on this earth ?

Jesus is YHWH said:

ok do you believe that there will be saints who meet Christ is the air while they are alive and be removed from this earth before He pours out His wrath on this earth ?

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Yes but I don`t see the connection to our dispute.

RickReads said:

Yes but I don`t see the connection to our dispute.

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Sometimes he wants to let us know what a scholar he is, and he attaches his irrelevant comments to something that has nothing to do with his subject.

I've seen that before, albeit rarely... very irritating.

Kenny'sID said:

Sometimes he wants to let us know what a scholar he is, and he attaches his irrelevant comments to something that has nothing to do with his subject.

I've seen that before, albeit rarely... very irritating.

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I`m sorry that you feel that way. If I took everything that is said to me seriously it would get ugly.

RickReads said:

Yes but I don`t see the connection to our dispute.

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So here is the connection. That began with Darby so now I can call you a follower of Darby, Darbianism. Until he came on the seen that was not taught anywhere in the church, he made that doctrine popular. He was the founder of dispensationalism.

Point being that is not fair. That is throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. While I might agree with calvin and arminius, luther and others on certain things I do not believe everything they taught.

Kenny'sID said:

Sometimes he wants to let us know what a scholar he is, and he attaches his irrelevant comments to something that has nothing to do with his subject.

I've seen that before, albeit rarely... very irritating.

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and you post nothing but ad hominem attacks and never address the scripture, you make everything personal.

Jesus is YHWH said:

So here is the connection. That began with Darby so now I can call you a follower of Darby, Darbianism. Until he came on the seen that was not taught anywhere in the church, he made that doctrine popular. He was the founder of dispensationalism.

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But I never heard of Darby, I haven`t a clue who he is or what he thought.

Jesus is YHWH said:

So here is the connection. That began with Darby so now I can call you a follower of Darby, Darbianism. Until he came on the seen that was not taught anywhere in the church, he made that doctrine popular. He was the founder of dispensationalism.

Point being that is not fair. That is throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. While I might agree with calvin and arminius, luther and others on certain things I do not believe everything they taught.

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Only thing I really brought up though, is you were giving me irristable grace doctrine so far as I know. I don`t understand Calvin well enough to say with absolute certainly. But it seemed like it and my 2% uncertainty is what led me to bring it up.

It sort of turned the light bulb on and made me see where that idea comes from. I was actually excited about it because I like learning new things.

The like is always appriciated but I wasn`t agreeing with it. Sometimes you have to look at my words carefully

Jesus is YHWH said:

and you post nothing but ad hominem attacks and never address the scripture, you make everything personal.

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I expect that by now, it beats addressing what I just commented on I supose.

Nothing but? Guess we'll need to add "untruthful" to your list, as you do that a lot as well.

Kenny'sID said:

I expect that by now, it beats addressing what I just commented on I supose.

Nothing but? Guess we'll need to add "untruthful" to your list, as you do that a lot as well.

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Bring up scripture and I will discuss that 24/7. I'm not interested in personal insults. I can watch that with the presidential debates since they cannot discuss issues and make it personal.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Bring up scripture and I will discuss that 24/7. I'm not interested in personal insults. I can watch that with the presidential debates since they cannot discuss issues and make it personal.

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There were no insults, just a description of what you do. I figured if I pointed out that youu often fall off topic, and why you do so, it might help you to realize there is a problem there, and you could work on that...far from an insult. But sometimes people dont take too well too constructive critisism, so nevermind.