Heaven after hell?

Jaxxi

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Could the Lords Day of Judgement possibly save souls who are in hell? They say hell is eternal but on the great Day of Judgement it says "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done."
Revelation 20:13

So the people in hell get out to be judged? What if they have been repenting the whole time there? I am just wondering if good people who never knew the Lord or had wished they knew Jesus could get a chance. Is it possible that they are paying for their sins now and could be let out? I think God is merciful and this could be possible. Why else would they be included in judgement day? Wouldn't He just leave them where they were? There would be no point in letting them out if the final judgement has already fallen.
 
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Jaxxi

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Sketcher

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Could the Lords Day of Judgement possibly save souls who are in hell? They say hell is eternal but on the great Day of Judgement it says "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done."
Revelation 20:13

So the people in hell get out to be judged? What if they have been repenting the whole time there? I am just wondering if good people who never knew the Lord or had wished they knew Jesus could get a chance. Is it possible that they are paying for their sins now and could be let out?
I would say keep reading.

Revelation 20:13-15:

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:1-8:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'
And he who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' And he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.'"

So no, there is a second death, and that is not redemptive. That is punishment. If someone's name is not in the book of life, that is what they get. No indication of Hades purifying people enough to get them into Heaven. No indication that anything people do or say in Hades will get their names written in the book of life.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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My understanding is it is talking about the "sea" and "Death" and "Hades" in terms of those who had lived and died in sin without repenting.

There's a larger question here about what exactly the Bible means when it says people "sleep", meaning, what happens to them just after they die. Some people believe that a person's soul goes to some sort of "dwelling place" after they die. Jesus talked about a place like this in Luke 16:19-31 where Lazarus goes to the "good" place after death and the rich ruler goes to the "bad" place. The interesting thing here is that Jesus also said the thief on the cross who repented, Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,'" and the "today" is pretty clear meaning, "this day" which opens up all kinds of questions as how these two views are compatible. Personally, I think Jesus meant "upon death, you will see me in my glory" which shouldn't necessarily be thought of as a literal seeing of Jesus, but more of seeing Jesus in full glory as per the same place that Lazarus went, but this doesn't actually mean he would "see" Jesus there as that place Jesus described was the "bosom of Abraham" and not necessarily heaven and it is said 1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison," which might mean that Jesus went in spirit to spirits who were "suffering" in death and to give them relief. My thoughts on this are that Christ went to all those who came before Him in the Law and the prophets to grant them relief from where they were in Hades. When I say Hades, I mean more like a "holding place" rather than a place of "conscious torment". An illustration of this is seen in the Old Testament of Sheol which is stated as "place of inquiry". This might mean something like "The spirits of the dead inquire about their destiny waiting the final judgement." So it seems that before Christ spirits were taken to Sheol and after Christ spirit were taken to the place mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 but that neither of these places are actually the "final judgement" there by which those alive in Christ are brought to the "new heavens and new earth" and those dead to their sin are cast into the "lake of fire."

That's my best guess, but I am not a preacher or anything.
 
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The Righterzpen

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My understanding is it is talking about the "sea" and "Death" and "Hades" in terms of those who had lived and died in sin without repenting.

There's a larger question here about what exactly the Bible means when it says people "sleep", meaning, what happens to them just after they die. Some people believe that a person's soul goes to some sort of "dwelling place" after they die. Jesus talked about a place like this in Luke 16:19-31 where Lazarus goes to the "good" place after death and the rich ruler goes to the "bad" place. The interesting thing here is that Jesus also said the thief on the cross who repented, Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,'" and the "today" is pretty clear meaning, "this day" which opens up all kinds of questions as how these two views are compatible. Personally, I think Jesus meant "upon death, you will see me in my glory" which shouldn't necessarily be thought of as a literal seeing of Jesus, but more of seeing Jesus in full glory as per the same place that Lazarus went, but this doesn't actually mean he would "see" Jesus there as that place Jesus described was the "bosom of Abraham" and not necessarily heaven and it is said 1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison," which might mean that Jesus went in spirit to spirits who were "suffering" in death and to give them relief. My thoughts on this are that Christ went to all those who came before Him in the Law and the prophets to grant them relief from where they were in Hades. When I say Hades, I mean more like a "holding place" rather than a place of "conscious torment". An illustration of this is seen in the Old Testament of Sheol which is stated as "place of inquiry". This might mean something like "The spirits of the dead inquire about their destiny waiting the final judgement." So it seems that before Christ spirits were taken to Sheol and after Christ spirit were taken to the place mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 but that neither of these places are actually the "final judgement" there by which those alive in Christ are brought to the "new heavens and new earth" and those dead to their sin are cast into the "lake of fire."

That's my best guess, but I am not a preacher or anything.

The "prevailing theory" I've heard (which I think is pretty good) is that "hell" (hades / Sheol) was "divided" into two parts. The part where the "righteous" went was called "Abraham's bosom" by the Jews and "everyone else" was in "hell". When Jesus died, that event released those in "Abraham's bosom" from their containment and they ascended to heaven with Christ.

Now were people actually segregated in Sheol? That's an interesting question, because Scripture does reference Christ "descending" into the "lowest hell". And considering that atonement for sin would involve dealing with immoral acts; all "contained in one space" along with "lowest hell" does make more sense. Yet not something I'm sure as being entirely clearly delineated.

On the flip side of "single compartment Sheol" or "multi-compartment Sheol" is that Jesus uses the "multi-compartment" concept in a parable. And of course it would not make sense for Him to lie in the context of telling the parable.

Yet redemption is needed by both those who were, as well as were not externally moral. So descending to "lowest hell" and "freeing from Abraham's bosom", together does make sense.

Now to answer the question about "Today you will be with me in paradise." If we take that statement literally; it would mean that Jesus ascended to the Father upon death and his human soul was in "hell" at some point in the interim.

I think that occurred on the night of Passover when He would have been confronted by the angel of death. Removing the breath of life would consign one's soul to Sheol. Jesus didn't die physically from that experience though because He retained a Divine nature.

So, that's what makes most sense to me; given all the Scriptural information we have.
 
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Junia

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My understanding is it is talking about the "sea" and "Death" and "Hades" in terms of those who had lived and died in sin without repenting.

There's a larger question here about what exactly the Bible means when it says people "sleep", meaning, what happens to them just after they die. Some people believe that a person's soul goes to some sort of "dwelling place" after they die. Jesus talked about a place like this in Luke 16:19-31 where Lazarus goes to the "good" place after death and the rich ruler goes to the "bad" place. The interesting thing here is that Jesus also said the thief on the cross who repented, Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,'" and the "today" is pretty clear meaning, "this day" which opens up all kinds of questions as how these two views are compatible. Personally, I think Jesus meant "upon death, you will see me in my glory" which shouldn't necessarily be thought of as a literal seeing of Jesus, but more of seeing Jesus in full glory as per the same place that Lazarus went, but this doesn't actually mean he would "see" Jesus there as that place Jesus described was the "bosom of Abraham" and not necessarily heaven and it is said 1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison," which might mean that Jesus went in spirit to spirits who were "suffering" in death and to give them relief. My thoughts on this are that Christ went to all those who came before Him in the Law and the prophets to grant them relief from where they were in Hades. When I say Hades, I mean more like a "holding place" rather than a place of "conscious torment". An illustration of this is seen in the Old Testament of Sheol which is stated as "place of inquiry". This might mean something like "The spirits of the dead inquire about their destiny waiting the final judgement." So it seems that before Christ spirits were taken to Sheol and after Christ spirit were taken to the place mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 but that neither of these places are actually the "final judgement" there by which those alive in Christ are brought to the "new heavens and new earth" and those dead to their sin are cast into the "lake of fire."

That's my best guess, but I am not a preacher or anything.


This is how I understand it too

Hades isn't the lake of fire

The lake of fire is where the unbelievers will go after the judgement
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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The "prevailing theory" I've heard (which I think is pretty good) is that "hell" (hades / Sheol) was "divided" into two parts. The part where the "righteous" went was called "Abraham's bosom" by the Jews and "everyone else" was in "hell". When Jesus died, that event released those in "Abraham's bosom" from their containment and they ascended to heaven with Christ.

Now were people actually segregated in Sheol? That's an interesting question, because Scripture does reference Christ "descending" into the "lowest hell". And considering that atonement for sin would involve dealing with immoral acts; all "contained in one space" along with "lowest hell" does make more sense. Yet not something I'm sure as being entirely clearly delineated.

On the flip side of "single compartment Sheol" or "multi-compartment Sheol" is that Jesus uses the "multi-compartment" concept in a parable. And of course it would not make sense for Him to lie in the context of telling the parable.

Yet redemption is needed by both those who were, as well as were not externally moral. So descending to "lowest hell" and "freeing from Abraham's bosom", together does make sense.

Now to answer the question about "Today you will be with me in paradise." If we take that statement literally; it would mean that Jesus ascended to the Father upon death and his human soul was in "hell" at some point in the interim.

I think that occurred on the night of Passover when He would have been confronted by the angel of death. Removing the breath of life would consign one's soul to Sheol. Jesus didn't die physically from that experience though because He retained a Divine nature.

So, that's what makes most sense to me; given all the Scriptural information we have.

Thanks for this post.

One matter still remains which is the resurrection of the dead and I don't see how that works with your model as if people are already in heaven, from where are they ascending to Christ from?
 
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CaspianSails

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Could the Lords Day of Judgement possibly save souls who are in hell? They say hell is eternal but on the great Day of Judgement it says "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done."
Revelation 20:13

So the people in hell get out to be judged? What if they have been repenting the whole time there? I am just wondering if good people who never knew the Lord or had wished they knew Jesus could get a chance. Is it possible that they are paying for their sins now and could be let out?

Repentance is only possible until death. Our sins occur while we live at death we are aware of our sins and where we are but there is no provision for repentance after death. John 8:24 puts this very plainly. "'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." Some may attempt to argue that God allows repentance after death but you will be hard pressed to present any Biblical reference to support that fact. You can make logical arguments but they fall apart. We are born into sin and we can either die in our sins or die with the imputed righteousness of Christ.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Thanks for this post.

One matter still remains which is the resurrection of the dead and I don't see how that works with your model as if people are already in heaven, from where are they ascending to Christ from?

Not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about the final bodily resurrection that happens on Judgement Day; or are you talking about when someone dies?

Two resurrections exist in Scripture.

The "first resurrection" is when someone becomes a believer. That obviously happens when they are still alive. They are raised from their state of spiritual deadness. And part of the "first resurrection" is when a believer dies; the soul is separated from the body and the soul is what ascends to heaven upon death.

Prior to the death of Christ in earthly time though, most of those who'd been atoned for were retained in some form of (or place in) Sheol. Once the atonement was completed in earthly time; those souls were given access to heaven. So they ascended from what ever portion of Sheol they'd been in.

That's a different event than the final resurrection though. The final resurrection is the recreation of the material world; including people's bodies. Those bodies come from their current graves.

Now here's where it gets interesting. We have people like Elijah and Moses whom apparently exist "someplace" in a material form. (Just as Jesus currently does also.) They are in (presumably) "glorified bodies"; (what ever that means).

There's a passage in one of the gospels about some of the dead rising after the resurrection and "walking around in the holy city". Now that "holy city" I believe is the New Jerusalem in "heaven" (or what ever that dimension is that certain individuals exist in a "bodily form" in). Is that the same "place" where souls go? (I don't know; obviously though God (and angels) reside in "both". (That's if they are actually "different places"; which they may not be.)

The "second resurrection" is when all humanity is raised to either be welcomed (as whole individuals) into the New Heavens and New Earth or to be judged. The "second resurrection" gets it's sort of "by default" concept name by the language that Scripture speaks of "the second death"; which occurs post bodily resurrection for those who are unredeemed. I.E. they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So in the sense of being physically raised; there's really only one "resurrection". Now were those like Moses and Elijah physically raised in an "interim state" and not as yet "glorified" because we see them appear on earth prior to Jesus's ascension back to heaven.

Now that question comes into play in that God in His glory can not "live" / "appear" in this material world without destroying this material world because this material world is corrupted. That which is eternal and that which is of "time" are like trying to mix oil and water; they just don't go together. Because God is holy, (besides omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and having no beginning and no end) and His glorified eternal presence would destroy the cosmos. This is why He tells Moses; "No man can see God and live."

So Jesus talks about returning in His glory. And this is what I believe is "why" this events precipitates the destruction of the current cosmos. Paul speaks of the corruptible being raised incorruptible. The new creation is raised incorruptible to accommodate the glorified presence of God within it. This (at least to me) appears to be the necessity for recreating the cosmos.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about the final bodily resurrection that happens on Judgement Day; or are you talking about when someone dies?

Two resurrections exist in Scripture.

The "first resurrection" is when someone becomes a believer. That obviously happens when they are still alive. They are raised from their state of spiritual deadness. And part of the "first resurrection" is when a believer dies; the soul is separated from the body and the soul is what ascends to heaven upon death.

Prior to the death of Christ in earthly time though, most of those who'd been atoned for were retained in some form of (or place in) Sheol. Once the atonement was completed in earthly time; those souls were given access to heaven. So they ascended from what ever portion of Sheol they'd been in.

That's a different event than the final resurrection though. The final resurrection is the recreation of the material world; including people's bodies. Those bodies come from their current graves.

Now here's where it gets interesting. We have people like Elijah and Moses whom apparently exist "someplace" in a material form. (Just as Jesus currently does also.) They are in (presumably) "glorified bodies"; (what ever that means).

There's a passage in one of the gospels about some of the dead rising after the resurrection and "walking around in the holy city". Now that "holy city" I believe is the New Jerusalem in "heaven" (or what ever that dimension is that certain individuals exist in a "bodily form" in). Is that the same "place" where souls go? (I don't know; obviously though God (and angels) reside in "both". (That's if they are actually "different places"; which they may not be.)

The "second resurrection" is when all humanity is raised to either be welcomed (as whole individuals) into the New Heavens and New Earth or to be judged. The "second resurrection" gets it's sort of "by default" concept name by the language that Scripture speaks of "the second death"; which occurs post bodily resurrection for those who are unredeemed. I.E. they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So in the sense of being physically raised; there's really only one "resurrection". Now were those like Moses and Elijah physically raised in an "interim state" and not as yet "glorified" because we see them appear on earth prior to Jesus's ascension back to heaven.

Now that question comes into play in that God in His glory can not "live" / "appear" in this material world without destroying this material world because this material world is corrupted. That which is eternal and that which is of "time" are like trying to mix oil and water; they just don't go together. Because God is holy, (besides omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and having no beginning and no end) and His glorified eternal presence would destroy the cosmos. This is why He tells Moses; "No man can see God and live."

So Jesus talks about returning in His glory. And this is what I believe is "why" this events precipitates the destruction of the current cosmos. Paul speaks of the corruptible being raised incorruptible. The new creation is raised incorruptible to accommodate the glorified presence of God within it. This (at least to me) appears to be the necessity for recreating the cosmos.

I was asking about those who are not saved but resurrected. IDK what happens to them.
 
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Albion

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It looks like your main point concerns the souls in hell getting judged, not that it will exonerate them.

So we may assume that they will regret what got them into hell once they've arrived there, but it's still too late. If there is a second judgment (which traditional theology holds to be the case), these souls will be judged--but found wanting. There is no possibility of them being judged to be righteous.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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It looks like your main point concerns the souls in hell getting judged, not that it will exonerate them.

So we may assume that they will regret what got them into hell once they've arrived there, but it's still too late. If there is a second judgment (which traditional theology holds to be the case), these souls will be judged--but found wanting. There is no possibility of them being judged to be righteous.

I was thinking more in terms of timeline. When/what happens to those who turned away from Christ? What's the timeline for that?
 
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Albion

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I was thinking more in terms of timeline. When/what happens to those who turned away from Christ? What's the timeline for that?
It is usually believed that there will be an immediate judgment after death and then the final judgment at the end of the age. When that will happen exactly is the subject of a lot of debate--in some denominations, at least. But the idea that the damned, once relegated to hell, will be rejuvenated there and then permitted to go to heaven has hardly any following, no matter what the denomination.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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It is usually believed that there will be an immediate judgment after death and then the final judgment at the end of the age. When that will happen exactly is the subject of a lot of debate--in some denominations, at least. But the idea that the damned, once relegated to hell, will be rejuvenated there and then permitted to go to heaven has hardly any following, no matter what the denomination.

Yes, I have actually ran into people who hold this strange belief.

Blessings.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I was asking about those who are not saved but resurrected. IDK what happens to them.

Oh OK. I understand your question now.

And if you haven't already picked up by other responses. When the unregenerate die; their souls are contained in Hades (hell, Sheol - Hell is the english word, Hades is the Greek word, Sheol is the Hebrew word = all the same place.)

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; we gather that their consciousness remains intact. They remain there until Judgement Day when they receive their sentences and then "death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire".

What actually "happens" there / in that process; is a bit hard to define. Places in Scripture use the term "outer darkness where there's wailing and gnashing of teeth". It is described as eternal, tormenting and a place forsaken by the presence of God.

It is also described as a just punishment though. There are "degrees of torment". Because the torment is predicated upon the "wages of sin" earned via choices made in this life. So I believe the "burning of consciousness" they experience has to do with the evil they willingly and knowingly chose to commit in this life.

And here demonstrates a truth that Romans explains. People are aware of the wrongness of their sin. They will never admit that they are committing evil against God and others; but they know. So I would imagine that the retribution for sin would be like unto tearing the bandaid off their lies in their own conscious existence and they are left to contemplate the wages they've earned for the rest of eternity. They contemplate their eternity void of any comfort from any other source. Yet it seems also from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that they are aware of God, aware of other people also in their same state and they are aware of what's going on on earth, within the time frame they died to Judgement Day.

Once cast into the Lake of Fire; Scripture describes that they are still conscious and they are also aware of those that they transgressed against in life, who have been redeemed, now residing in the presence of God. There is a Scripture verse (and right now, I'm not sure of where it is) but it describes their enemies will witness Christ naming His people (specifically one's these unredeemed knew) and welcoming them into His glory.

So they are aware of the evil they've committed; aware of whom they've committed it against, (besides God) and aware that the state they are in is just payment for the wages of sin that they've earned.

Now on the flip side of this; it also seems the redeemed have some awareness of the lost. The redeemed certainly retain awareness that they deserve condemnation. Which is the source of their gratitude to God that exists from the point they know they are redeemed through all of eternity. Now whether or not those in the new heavens and new earth can actually witness what's going on in the Lake of Fire is unclear. They are aware of its existence though; of which, (even in this life I would conclude based on my own growth in perspective on the justice of God) they learn to understand justice through God's perspective.

I've seen this on my own life. Obviously I know people who've died in an unregenerate state. It's very serious and sobering to consider their current reality as opposed to my own future. Which makes me eternally grateful for the sacrifice Christ provided. That He endured that to redeem me; in 30 plus years, I've never been able to wrap my brain around. And on some level, I don't think I ever will.
 
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The "prevailing theory" I've heard (which I think is pretty good) is that "hell" (hades / Sheol) was "divided" into two parts. The part where the "righteous" went was called "Abraham's bosom" by the Jews and "everyone else" was in "hell". When Jesus died, that event released those in "Abraham's bosom" from their containment and they ascended to heaven with Christ.

Now were people actually segregated in Sheol? That's an interesting question, because Scripture does reference Christ "descending" into the "lowest hell". And considering that atonement for sin would involve dealing with immoral acts; all "contained in one space" along with "lowest hell" does make more sense. Yet not something I'm sure as being entirely clearly delineated.

On the flip side of "single compartment Sheol" or "multi-compartment Sheol" is that Jesus uses the "multi-compartment" concept in a parable. And of course it would not make sense for Him to lie in the context of telling the parable.

Yet redemption is needed by both those who were, as well as were not externally moral. So descending to "lowest hell" and "freeing from Abraham's bosom", together does make sense.

Now to answer the question about "Today you will be with me in paradise." If we take that statement literally; it would mean that Jesus ascended to the Father upon death and his human soul was in "hell" at some point in the interim.

I think that occurred on the night of Passover when He would have been confronted by the angel of death. Removing the breath of life would consign one's soul to Sheol. Jesus didn't die physically from that experience though because He retained a Divine nature.

So, that's what makes most sense to me; given all the Scriptural information we have.
 
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