Heaven after hell?

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Not sure I understand your question. Are you talking about the final bodily resurrection that happens on Judgement Day; or are you talking about when someone dies?

Two resurrections exist in Scripture.

The "first resurrection" is when someone becomes a believer. That obviously happens when they are still alive. They are raised from their state of spiritual deadness. And part of the "first resurrection" is when a believer dies; the soul is separated from the body and the soul is what ascends to heaven upon death.

Prior to the death of Christ in earthly time though, most of those who'd been atoned for were retained in some form of (or place in) Sheol. Once the atonement was completed in earthly time; those souls were given access to heaven. So they ascended from what ever portion of Sheol they'd been in.

That's a different event than the final resurrection though. The final resurrection is the recreation of the material world; including people's bodies. Those bodies come from their current graves.

Now here's where it gets interesting. We have people like Elijah and Moses whom apparently exist "someplace" in a material form. (Just as Jesus currently does also.) They are in (presumably) "glorified bodies"; (what ever that means).

There's a passage in one of the gospels about some of the dead rising after the resurrection and "walking around in the holy city". Now that "holy city" I believe is the New Jerusalem in "heaven" (or what ever that dimension is that certain individuals exist in a "bodily form" in). Is that the same "place" where souls go? (I don't know; obviously though God (and angels) reside in "both". (That's if they are actually "different places"; which they may not be.)

The "second resurrection" is when all humanity is raised to either be welcomed (as whole individuals) into the New Heavens and New Earth or to be judged. The "second resurrection" gets it's sort of "by default" concept name by the language that Scripture speaks of "the second death"; which occurs post bodily resurrection for those who are unredeemed. I.E. they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

So in the sense of being physically raised; there's really only one "resurrection". Now were those like Moses and Elijah physically raised in an "interim state" and not as yet "glorified" because we see them appear on earth prior to Jesus's ascension back to heaven.

Now that question comes into play in that God in His glory can not "live" / "appear" in this material world without destroying this material world because this material world is corrupted. That which is eternal and that which is of "time" are like trying to mix oil and water; they just don't go together. Because God is holy, (besides omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and having no beginning and no end) and His glorified eternal presence would destroy the cosmos. This is why He tells Moses; "No man can see God and live."

So Jesus talks about returning in His glory. And this is what I believe is "why" this events precipitates the destruction of the current cosmos. Paul speaks of the corruptible being raised incorruptible. The new creation is raised incorruptible to accommodate the glorified presence of God within it. This (at least to me) appears to be the necessity for recreating the cosmos.

You said " No man can see God and live" but what about the Spirit of Man because the Bible says Enoch walked with God. He must have seen Him if He walked with God. This man claims to have seen God but was in the spirit. GREAT TESTIMONY. It starts at about 17:32 when he talks about heaven.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You said " No man can see God and live" but what about the Spirit of Man because the Bible says Enoch walked with God. He must have seen Him if He walked with God. This man claims to have seen God but was in the spirit. GREAT TESTIMONY. It starts at about 17:32 when he talks about heaven.

Look really carefully at the context of the passages you quote.

The context of how "Enoch walked with God" is defined in Genesis 5:24 He walked with God and "was not" because "God took him". Now two verses before, talks about Enoch walking with God 300 years after Methuselah's birth. Which by context of how these verses in Genesis are written; We know Enoch only lived 365 years, when everyone else was 800 / 900 years.

So the context of the walking, at least as it applied to Enoch being taken was at the end of his life.

Compare this to Moses in Exodus 33:

17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And He said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Is the reason Enoch "was not" after this "walk" having to do with seeing God's glory? That would make sense. And this is the context where I said "No man can see God and live."

And here is where context of conversation about 1st and 2nd resurrection. Christ comes in His glory (Matthew 25:30-32) Look at what's happening. This is Judgement Day and the current cosmos is destroyed because Christ sits on His throne in glory! - Thus hearkening back to what He said to Moses about "can't see My glory... and live."

Now as far as this video of this guy "falling into hell" and "walking up to heaven". It doesn't jive with Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Now, not sure if you are directing this to me or not, because the post before you quoted me.

I would contend that Christ ascending occurred after the resurrection not upon death.

His bodily ascension occurred post resurrection. Yet at the point just before He dies, He says to the thief "Today, you will be with me in paradise." He didn't say "After my body rises from the dead...."; He said "today....". That was Friday before sundown.

Now where is "paradise"?

Paradise is the 3rd heaven. Compare Luke 23:43 to 2 Corinthians 12:4 to Revelation 2:7.

The reference to Mary has more to do with the spiritual nature of how believers would cling to Him spiritually not physically. Touch in that sense is really cling. Christ was no longer to be clung to in the physical sense as He was going away shortly.

The Greek in this passage has additional confusing elements in it also that you don't see in English. When Jesus says to Mary "I haven't ascended to my Father" but then says "tell them I ascend". One is present tense, the other is perfect tense. Which means He's actually "ascending" at the point that He's standing there talking to her.

How's that? Well the only way we can reconcile those statements is to understand that the work of redemption takes place in eternity but also within time. Revelation also tells us that Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world; which means that the atonement was actually accomplished "in eternity" "before" it was accomplished "in time".

Now that's a little hard for us to wrap our brains around because we are limited to a temporal existence. Whereas God is omnipresent and outside of time.

So yeah, that one's a little "wiggy" to understand.

I don't understand the section regarding Passover and the angel of death in the context of Christ. He did celebrate the Passover meal with the disciples where He instituted what we call communion.

Back in Exodus the angel of death passed through the land at midnight and killed the first born. Jesus the "first" born (from the dead) of God was "outside the house". He is the "ark" that protects the believer from the "flood waters" (damnation). The "ark" thus being subject to the elements that cause the destruction. He withstood the angel of death and the condemnation of God to atone for sin.

This is why Passover becomes communion. Because we are remembering what He did. Passover looked toward the atonement that would take place. Communion looks back upon the accomplishment. Those of Christ (who were in the "ark") partake together because He was the one sacrifice once and for all.

Christ was crucified on the day before Passover as we are told the priests did not want to defile themselves on Passover. In the Jewish method of counting days the Passover meal would have occurred the evening before Passover just as the Sabbath begins Friday evening into Saturday by our calendar.

You are correct that Passover starts at sun down; but it's over by sun up.

Now a lot of people get confused by a passage in (I think it's John) where the Pharisees would not go into the judgement hall of Pilate because they didn't want to be "defiled" and now disallowed from partaking in Passover. The only thing that passage means is that the sun hadn't come up yet. Jesus and the disciples ate right after sundown that evening and Jesus was in Gethsemane at midnight. (Remember Exodus; angel of death, midnight). Jesus encounters and angel in Gethsemane. That was the angel of death.

The angel of death removes the breath of life which confines the human soul to hades. Under normal circumstances the body would die at that point. (You can't exist without the breath of life. That is what makes you a "living soul".)

Jesus though had a Divine nature and this is why He didn't physically die when his human soul was consigned to Sheol once the angel of death removed the breath of life. Now obviously to maintain physical function; the Divine nature kept the flesh breathing and functioning without the breath of life or a soul.

Jesus though maintained his human spirit; which appears to be the cognitive source of our understanding of God's law; for it is the vehicle wherewith the Spirit of God communicates with the living. This is different than being indwelt by the Spirit. Everything that's alive is connected to the Spirit of God through the breath of life. So thus every living thing (including my cat) has a "soul"; they just don't have human souls. Other life is not accountable for its transgression because it's not created in God's image. Other life can "sin" just not in the same capacity humanity does. There are some interesting "obscure" passages that speak of animals and "the land" "sinning". (How does land sin??? LOL And obviously my cat doesn't obey me.) They do so because of being subject to the fall that was a result of human disobedience.

Christ was indeed in what some call Abraham's Bosom, which is where the thief would have gone after his belief in the Christ. T

Christ's soul was in Sheol; which theory wise its believed Abraham's bosom was a part of Sheol? I can't speak to the total validity of that theory but to me it does make logical sense.

Yet remember Jesus says to the thief "Today, you will be with me in paradise". Other passages establish that the Tree of Life is in paradise. The Tree of Life is in the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, so thus paradise is in heaven.

So the thief didn't go to Abraham's bosom upon death because Jesus died before he did. At the point the thief dies, he ascends into heaven and we read about this in the book of Revelation when the "lamb that was slain" stands before the Father to open the seals. That's Christ the all sufficient sacrifice.

The Bible tells us that Christ preached to those in Sheol or Hades, both which refer to the place of the dead. There is more that people infer from this visit to hell but much is speculation not scripture. I hope I have not written in a manner that does not portray my thoughts on this one.

Go back to (I think it's the book of Jeremiah?) The passage speaks of "time of Jacob's trouble". Jacob is delivered from his "trouble" based on his own righteousness. "You have not left my soul in hell" (Acts). Jesus is delivered from Sheol / hades because he has not sinned. God can not violate His own conscience by condemning the innocent.

Psalms, Jonah and other parts of the Scripture speak of the Messiah crying out to God appealing to His justice that He has not sinned. And this is at least part of what constituted "preaching to the spirits in prison". No one else in Sheol could claim that they hadn't sinned. And for the righteous Son of God to suddenly be condemned there with them; probably made the place awfully quiet. (He's not suppose to be here. Is God unjust?) No God is not unjust; this is how the atonement is accomplished.

The sun goes dark and the cosmos actually begins to come unraveled at the crucifixion. This was the "great tribulation" because if Christ had not accomplished the atonement, that would have commenced the destruction of the cosmos.

But that aside there is no reference that I am aware of that repentance occurs after death which precludes the ability to repent in hades or hell.

You are correct here. This is true. A lot of people in hell are "repenting"; yet repentance isn't just being sorry for getting caught of the sin one has committed. Humans maintain moral aptitude. The wages one earns in the Lake of Fire is the consequence of the sin they've committed.

Romans 3 says that we are all accountable because the invisible things of God can be seen in the creation around us including His eternal Godhead and power. (I.E. the plan of redemption is seen in creation). So none are without excuse.

Yet on the flip side of that; none are left without a witness either. The gospel is preached to them through the creation and they can actually come to recognize God the Creator that way. Including having their sin atoned for even though they have never encountered the written Revelation of Scripture and have never heard of Jesus. "How do they believe without a preacher?" In that context; the preacher is the creation.

So God is not unjust to condemn someone automatically based on the time in history or the isolation of the nation they were born into. This is what Paul means when he talks about those who have not the law but obey it out of conscience; they are a law unto themselves. They obey the witness they have; which is their conscience as they see the reflection of God in the creation around them.

It is not, as quoted in the Revelation passage what is typically called hell. That would be the Lake of fire of revelation.

You are correct here too. Sheol / hades and the Lake of Fire are different "places".
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Look really carefully at the context of the passages you quote.

The context of how "Enoch walked with God" is defined in Genesis 5:24 He walked with God and "was not" because "God took him". Now two verses before, talks about Enoch walking with God 300 years after Methuselah's birth. Which by context of how these verses in Genesis are written; We know Enoch only lived 365 years, when everyone else was 800 / 900 years.

So the context of the walking, at least as it applied to Enoch being taken was at the end of his life.

Compare this to Moses in Exodus 33:

17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And He said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Is the reason Enoch "was not" after this "walk" having to do with seeing God's glory? That would make sense. And this is the context where I said "No man can see God and live."

And here is where context of conversation about 1st and 2nd resurrection. Christ comes in His glory (Matthew 25:30-32) Look at what's happening. This is Judgement Day and the current cosmos is destroyed because Christ sits on His throne in glory! - Thus hearkening back to what He said to Moses about "can't see My glory... and live."

Now as far as this video of this guy "falling into hell" and "walking up to heaven". It doesn't jive with Scripture.

So this means that Enoch was in the spirit when he walked with God? I really like the Book of Enoch and think it should have been in the Bible. It tells us things that could only have come from God because at the time when it was written man had no way of having the knowledge of the information given in it. They didn't have telescopes, or weather balloons or thermometers or ANYTHING to determine the information in that book. And it is so spiritually deep, I do not see how anyone could have came up with what that book says on their own. Even by todays standards that book is astonishing.
 
Upvote 0

The Righterzpen

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm
Feb 9, 2019
3,389
1,342
53
Western NY
Visit site
✟144,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So this means that Enoch was in the spirit when he walked with God?

I think by Scriptural context "Enoch walked with God and was not" meant that at the end of his life God took Enoch to heaven as He'd taken Moses and Elijah.

Now historically Enoch was on the other side of the flood. There are Scriptures (in the New Testament) that speak of the world on the other side of the flood being "different" than this world. And by that I think Scripture is talking about the type and form of revelation that humans had received from Satanic influences. "Walking with God" as opposed to succumbing to "seducing spirits".

Prior to the flood we see what I call the "nephilim incident". This is where demonic entities exchanged information from the spiritual realm of what they knew, in exchange to try and corrupt the seed of Adam; in an attempt to prevent the birth of the Messiah. Because they are not carbon based life forms though; they could not accomplish this plan directly. They needed the cooperation of humans to conceive these children who indeed were 100% biologically human.

The difference was that the demonic world imparted to these men knowledge that other groups of humans at that time didn't have. And this is how they became "giants" and "mighty men of renown".

Now what was the content of that knowledge? We don't really know, because that world was destroyed by the flood. And the fact that humans had that knowledge is probably at least part of the reason why the world was destroyed. Scripture says the reason for the flood was that the hearts of men were evil continuously. Which the Hebrew there means that every motivation was of a wicked intent. So, what did that look like for humans living in that world; (besides the fact there were dinosaurs and other now extinct creatures) in relation to the behavior of other humans? I can only imagine they were very savage to each other in how they utilized the knowledge that had come from the demonic realm.

So, I don't think "giants" and "mighty men of renown" was necessarily a description of their physical size; even though we do see examples of "giantism" in humans. There are people born in the modern era who have a genetic disorder that they have accelerated growth and thus they reach 8 feet high. Obviously this happened in antiquity too; for we have Goliath as an example of a human with giantism.

Yet, we also have the opposite end of the spectrum. There is a rare form of dwarfism which isn't just dwarfism of the limbs. The person as an adult is actually 25% or more smaller than the average adult of their ethnic background yet their physiology is proportionally matched to a person of the same age. So as adults, they look like miniature adults. Primordial dwarfs don't get higher than about 3 feet. They are quite rare and generally don't live past 30 years old.

7 Oldest Primordial Dwarfs in the World | Oldest.org

Now we have Enoch, Moses and Elijah as examples of people taken directly to heaven prior to the crucifixion. Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Now what role did Enoch play in the pre-flood world? I don't know. I speculate that likely he was an outstanding prophet such as Moses and Elijah.

Was there a "book of Enoch" written before the flood; that applied to that era? If there was, it has not survived into the post flood world. Post flood, we have the book of Job; which is the oldest book in the Scripture. Job, (as we can determine from things written in the book of Job) was not much more than a generation or two post Peleg.

Job lived in (one of) the ice age(s) (possibly the major ice age) post the flood. The flood was in part caused by an asteroid that created a title wave that washed across Pangea; which was the only continent that existed at the time on the planet. Geological evidence suggests that this asteroid created what would become the Gulf of Mexico; which means it would have hit the far western end of Pangea, assuming what would become North America was the far end of Pangea. Now where was Noah on Pangea when that happened? My hypothesis is that he was on the far eastern end of the continent. Which if "North America" was the far western end; Noah would have been in what to us would become China.

I hypothesis that Noah was on the far eastern end of Pangea because the initial tidal wave would have taken him directly out to sea in the Pacific ocean; leaving all the continental debris from the tidal wave on the Pacific end of the Asian plate. Which as the Atlantic Ocean formed in the days of Pelag; would have dragged all those debris under the Asian plate and destroyed them in the magma of the earth's inner layer. I hypothesis that the ark just continued to "sail" over the Pacific ocean until it came back to the western end of Pangea eventually "landing" on Mt. Ararat.

Now was "North (and South) America" on the west end of Pangea? or was it actually more in the "middle" / "bottom" / "top"? This raises a good question because most fossils of large land animals are found in Western North America, Argentina and China. So at the very least; these were the areas closest to the epicenter of the asteroid impact at the time Pangea existed.

The following (at least) 1 to 4 years; would have created "nuclear winter" conditions; thus creating ice ages and what ever "dinosaurs" would have been preserved on Noah's ark would not have been able to survive long term post flood. Thus we see in the fossil record the emergence of mammals as the predominant class of animal life on the planet. Some paleontologists estimate the "nuclear winter" from the asteroid hit was at least 10 years long. Thus the extended advance and retraction of ice ages.

We know warming and cooling of the planet has been happening for millennia. The last major "warm spell" on earth was about 1000 AD. The warming and cooling of the surface temperatures on earth are connected to solar flare activity and how much CO2 the oceans either absorb or release. Obviously human activity (industrialization in burning of fossil fuels) does impact the surface temperature of earth; but that is not the only, or the largest factor in the fluctuation of temperatures on the planet.

Now is my hypothesis correct as to the location of Noah's ark when the flood started? I have no idea. But it makes the most sense given what happened geologically to the planet.

Peleg was about 2000 years after the flood. The flood was about 5000 years after the creation of Adam and Eve. Abraham was about 1000 years after Peleg; (and 2000 years before the birth of Christ). Creation to Abraham is about 9000 years. Earth being now a little more than 13,000 years old.

Prior to Abraham, the only people we have more information about their lives are Job and Noah. Enoch was taken a little more than 1000 years before Noah was born. Between the two was Methuselah. And following Methuselah's era was Lamech who was the direct father of Noah. They were all in the same patriarchal line. Lamech died shortly before the flood came. Noah and 7 other family members were the only survivors of the flood (thus destroying this line of humans infused with Satanic knowledge). This marked the end of the "world of old" from Adam to Noah.

I really like the Book of Enoch and think it should have been in the Bible. It tells us things that could only have come from God because at the time when it was written man had no way of having the knowledge of the information given in it. They didn't have telescopes, or weather balloons or thermometers or ANYTHING to determine the information in that book.

Parts of "the Book of Enoch" allegedly date back to about 300 BC. We have no archaeological evidence of that though. The oldest copies of the earliest parts of the Book of Enoch are in the Dead Sea Scrolls; so we know those parts existed in the 1st century. But how much of the Book of Enoch existed by the 1st century; we don't know. The entire Book of Enoch doesn't show up until about 400 AD. and its part of Rabbinic literature.

The last book of the Old Testament was completed about 400 BC. Chronicles, Esther, Malachi and Nehemiah are believed to be the last ones completed. Chronicles and Nehemiah were probably in the "editing phase" in that era. As that was the point that the Hebrew text was codified. After this we have nothing else considered to be Hebrew Scripture that is written in Hebrew.

Much of what is called the Apocrypha; is post Babylonian captivity (into the 2nd century AD) Jewish folklore. No Apocryphal books were in the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) of Jesus's day. We have no copies of anything other than the Old Testament having been written in Hebrew. Although we do have fragments of Hebrew Scripture written in a primitive Hebrew script on pottery that dates back to King David's era.

The Book of Enoch was written in Aramaic; not Hebrew. Much of the rest of the Apocrypha was originally written in Greek. We know this because the oldest copies of Apocryphal writings we have are in the Septuagint and that was the Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew. The oldest parts of the Septuagint dates to about 200 BC.

It is generally accepted by Bible scholars that if the Book of Enoch was prescribed by God and meant to be in the Bible; it would have been written in Hebrew and contained in the Hebrew Old Testament that Jesus would have been familiar with. Clearly though the Book of Enoch was not considered part of the Hebrew canon in the 1st century. Nor was it ever part of Christian Scripture. It is not mentioned by any New Testament writer; nor is it mentioned in any of the documents of the early church. (1st to 2nd century).

They didn't have telescopes, or weather balloons or thermometers or ANYTHING to determine the information in that book.

You'd be surprised what the ancients observed and understood about the cosmos. Even the secular astronomers were pretty observant and have some insightful things to say. We know that at least by the days of the Etruscans and Greeks in the wast; that scientists, philosophers and astronomers knew the earth was a sphere and we existed in a heliocentric solar system. They'd even quite accurately estimated the size of planet earth. The Chinese on the other hand, were likely even ahead of the Greeks in their astronomical knowledge. The Chinese certainly kept more exacting records of astronomical events.

And it is so spiritually deep, I do not see how anyone could have came up with what that book says on their own. Even by todays standards that book is astonishing.

Which this brings me to my last question to you? What exactly is the "spiritual message" of the Book of Enoch? The reason I ask this is because Scripture itself states that it's entire content is related to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Is the Book of Enoch "left over" remnants of pre-flood knowledge that had been originally disseminated by demonic forces? It's possible; seeing how the Book of Enoch comes out of literature of Rabbinic Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism does have ties to the occult.

Would demonic entities have some knowledge of the "construction" of the cosmos. Yeah, probably. Would they be telling humanity the truth about that though? No, because Satan is the father of lies.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

CaspianSails

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2019
579
302
65
Washington DC metro area
✟27,746.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok so the sea gave up the dead, and Hades gave up the dead, and everyone stood before the Lord and is judged according to what He had done. Meaning the Book of Life had not been opened until then. So Hades, now empty is thrown into the lake of fire, along with those not in the Book of Life. My point is the Bible does not say that we will be judged twice, and it seems to me that before the Great Day of judgement, those in Hades have not been judged yet! If God is just and merciful, and someone commits a lesser sin ( because there are different degrees yet one can keep you from heaven) and the person has been in Hades burning for 3 years because he smoked a cigarette, on the Day of Judgement his name might still be in the Book of Life if he learned his lesson. The Lake of fire is eternal- it does not say Hades is eternal. That is my point.

If one is in the Book of Life then one spirit and soul is not in Hades. The Bible is clear that to be absent from the body, for the believer, is to present from the Lord. Point 2, committing a sin right before you die does not condemn a believer to any place other than to be with their savior. Christ's imputed righteousness is not won or lost. Grace is the method of salvation, not works and Grace as well as faith both come from God. Salvation is all of God, none of man. Works are a result of a life controlled by the Holy Spirit. Being a child of God is not so precarious position. Hell or hades as you put it is not eternal as it, along with death, is cast into the lake of fire. The waiting place ends at that point as there is no longer a need for it.
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
If one is in the Book of Life then one spirit and soul is not in Hades. The Bible is clear that to be absent from the body, for the believer, is to present from the Lord. Point 2, committing a sin right before you die does not condemn a believer to any place other than to be with their savior. Christ's imputed righteousness is not won or lost. Grace is the method of salvation, not works and Grace as well as faith both come from God. Salvation is all of God, none of man. Works are a result of a life controlled by the Holy Spirit. Being a child of God is not so precarious position. Hell or hades as you put it is not eternal as it, along with death, is cast into the lake of fire. The waiting place ends at that point as there is no longer a need for it.

even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”; Mark 3:29

So why do these say eternal? It is pretty clear...
If one is in the Book of Life then one spirit and soul is not in Hades. The Bible is clear that to be absent from the body, for the believer, is to present from the Lord. Point 2, committing a sin right before you die does not condemn a believer to any place other than to be with their savior. Christ's imputed righteousness is not won or lost. Grace is the method of salvation, not works and Grace as well as faith both come from God. Salvation is all of God, none of man. Works are a result of a life controlled by the Holy Spirit. Being a child of God is not so precarious position. Hell or hades as you put it is not eternal as it, along with death, is cast into the lake of fire. The waiting place ends at that point as there is no longer a need for it.
 
Upvote 0

CaspianSails

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2019
579
302
65
Washington DC metro area
✟27,746.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since much of this is based on interpretation and speculation, I think you did a great job of articulating your take on it. We all know what it says- this is about us sharing ideas on what we think it means! Maybe it isn't about repenting so much because that might not count but if you have been burning alive for the equivalent of 4 years for lying, maybe as a believer you served your sentence and on the Day of Judgement your name is found in the Book of Life. They refer to the " second death" being thrown into the abyss, and you would have suffered the " first death" when you were baptized. If you met the mark and escaped Hades, you would be " resting in peace" until the Day of Judgement. I believe the only people enjoying Paradise currently are the people Christ took from Abraham's bosom when He ascended on the third day. People taken to heaven and shown its beauty describe meeting or seeing disciples, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Moses, Sarah, Elizabeth, Mary and about 2 dozen others but that for the most part the city is empty but FILLED with mansions with golden engraved name plates on every door with the names of the future owner on them. They said the mansions are furnished, set up and ready for the day and that all of the garments are finished and in the closets. Right now they are making the footwear and the last minute preparations because while they are doing this, everyone is getting ready like we would on earth for the big wedding. They said an angel was giving them a tour, but that Jesus can hardly contain Himself because He is so excited for everyone to come and see what He has prepared for them! The thought of our Lord being excited like this reminds me of how we feel Christmas morning before our kids get up and that makes me cry! How beautiful is that? Praise the Lord! I hope He knows how much we love Him...

It is quite clear that believers are not subject to judgement. There is therefor no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Christs righteousness cannot be degregated or diminished within a believer. Believers are not sent to hades. Today no one is in Paradise as you state. Believers, upon death of the physical body, pass from death to life and to be absent from the body, Paul tells us, is to be present with the Lord. There is no meeting the mark so to speak. Salvation is through Christ alone, by Christ alone and is none of ourselves less we would take glory. On that point we will need to disagree.
 
Upvote 0

Abide with me.

Active Member
Jan 8, 2021
253
260
64
Norfolk
✟40,976.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My understanding is it is talking about the "sea" and "Death" and "Hades" in terms of those who had lived and died in sin without repenting.

There's a larger question here about what exactly the Bible means when it says people "sleep", meaning, what happens to them just after they die. Some people believe that a person's soul goes to some sort of "dwelling place" after they die. Jesus talked about a place like this in Luke 16:19-31 where Lazarus goes to the "good" place after death and the rich ruler goes to the "bad" place. The interesting thing here is that Jesus also said the thief on the cross who repented, Luke 23:43 "And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise,'" and the "today" is pretty clear meaning, "this day" which opens up all kinds of questions as how these two views are compatible. Personally, I think Jesus meant "upon death, you will see me in my glory" which shouldn't necessarily be thought of as a literal seeing of Jesus, but more of seeing Jesus in full glory as per the same place that Lazarus went, but this doesn't actually mean he would "see" Jesus there as that place Jesus described was the "bosom of Abraham" and not necessarily heaven and it is said 1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison," which might mean that Jesus went in spirit to spirits who were "suffering" in death and to give them relief. My thoughts on this are that Christ went to all those who came before Him in the Law and the prophets to grant them relief from where they were in Hades. When I say Hades, I mean more like a "holding place" rather than a place of "conscious torment". An illustration of this is seen in the Old Testament of Sheol which is stated as "place of inquiry". This might mean something like "The spirits of the dead inquire about their destiny waiting the final judgement." So it seems that before Christ spirits were taken to Sheol and after Christ spirit were taken to the place mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 but that neither of these places are actually the "final judgement" there by which those alive in Christ are brought to the "new heavens and new earth" and those dead to their sin are cast into the "lake of fire."

That's my best guess, but I am not a preacher or anything.
Dear T C,
I'm not well versed on the Bible and also new here, do you think when you mention the dead going to a dwelling place, it's like a holding place before judgment is finally passed for those who are not 100% wicked, but need to confront serious wrongdoing?

My father had nightmares of going to a black frightening void for a year before he died, he had done wicked things and was unrepentant, I wonder if his dreams were foretelling a place he was being sent to consider his soul? I looked up testimonies of people who had died then been ressusciated who talk about this exact same thing and worse, and cried out to God to save them, and they were saved...mostly, but I guess from this thread thats open to debate?
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I would say keep reading.

Revelation 20:13-15:

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:1-8:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'
And he who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' And he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.'"

So no, there is a second death, and that is not redemptive. That is punishment. If someone's name is not in the book of life, that is what they get. No indication of Hades purifying people enough to get them into Heaven. No indication that anything people do or say in Hades will get their names written in the book of life.
But they are judged according to what they had done. If they have been punished accordingly in Hades for what they have done, who is to say they might not get everlasting life? It is up to God right?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,984
9,400
✟380,249.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
But they are judged according to what they had done. If they have been punished accordingly in Hades for what they have done, who is to say they might not get everlasting life? It is up to God right?
What they had done deserved the second death. There is no provision in Revelation for them getting out of it, ever. Jesus made no provision for it either when he taught about Hell, but rather stated the punishment is eternal here:

"And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'" - Mark 9:47-48

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
 
Upvote 0