Heaven after hell?

[CaspianSails]

I would contend that Christ ascending occurred after the resurrection not upon death. The reference to Mary has more to do with the spiritual nature of how believers would cling to Him spiritually not physically. Touch in that sense is really cling. Christ was no longer to be clung to in the physical sense as He was going away shortly. I know, it is confusing. I don't understand the section regarding Passover and the angel of death in the context of Christ. He did celebrate the Passover meal with the disciples where He instituted what we call communion. Christ was crucified on the day before Passover as we are told the priests did not want to defile themselves on Passover. In the Jewish method of counting days the Passover meal would have occurred the evening before Passover just as the Sabbath begins Friday evening into Saturday by our calendar. Christ was indeed in what some call Abraham's Bosom, which is where the thief would have gone after his belief in the Christ. The Bible tells us that Christ preached to those in Sheol or Hades, both which refer to the place of the dead. There is more that people infer from this visit to hell but much is speculation not scripture. I hope I have not written in a manner that does not portray my thoughts on this one.

But that aside there is no reference that I am aware of that repentance occurs after death which precludes the ability to repent in hades or hell. It is not, as quoted in the Revelation passage what is typically called hell. That would be the Lake of fire of revelation.

 

[Jaxxi]

I would say keep reading.

Revelation 20:13-15:

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:1-8:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'
And he who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' And he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.'"

So no, there is a second death, and that is not redemptive. That is punishment. If someone's name is not in the book of life, that is what they get. No indication of Hades purifying people enough to get them into Heaven. No indication that anything people do or say in Hades will get their names written in the book of life.

Ok so the sea gave up the dead, and Hades gave up the dead, and everyone stood before the Lord and is judged according to what He had done. Meaning the Book of Life had not been opened until then. So Hades, now empty is thrown into the lake of fire, along with those not in the Book of Life. My point is the Bible does not say that we will be judged twice, and it seems to me that before the Great Day of judgement, those in Hades have not been judged yet! If God is just and merciful, and someone commits a lesser sin ( because there are different degrees yet one can keep you from heaven) and the person has been in Hades burning for 3 years because he smoked a cigarette, on the Day of Judgement his name might still be in the Book of Life if he learned his lesson. The Lake of fire is eternal- it does not say Hades is eternal. That is my point.

 

[Jaxxi]

It looks like your main point concerns the souls in hell getting judged, not that it will exonerate them.

So we may assume that they will regret what got them into hell once they've arrived there, but it's still too late. If there is a second judgment (which traditional theology holds to be the case), these souls will be judged--but found wanting. There is no possibility of them being judged to be righteous.

Why not? It does not say that there are 2 judgements. There is a great Day of Judgement. It does not say that Hades is eternal. Why would they get out of Hades to be judged again to suffer the same fate? The Book of Life continues to be written in up until that time.
Christians are sinners. Someone calls you don't want to talk to,- " Tell them Im not here."
Bam! You just sinned. But you were baptized, and you never killed or lusted, or were greedy and you tithed and went to church and kept the Sabbath. " He who believeth in me shall have everlasting life." God is just and faithful, but you forgot to repent that white lie! You will suffer eternal damnation?? If that is the case NONE of us in America will make it because the system was designed for us to fail. We can love Christ with every ounce of our soul, and try as hard as we can but we were born sinners. Jesus Christ was not. None of us will ever measure up because there is always that one unrepented sin before an untimely death and Whoa! So close! You almost made it, but we have a lovely parting gift for you! Burning in hell and being tortured by demons for all of eternity! Thanks for playing!.

 

[Albion]

Why not? It does not say that there are 2 judgements. There is a great Day of Judgement. It does not say that Hades is eternal. Why would they get out of Hades to be judged again to suffer the same fate? The Book of Life continues to be written in up until that time.
Christians are sinners. Someone calls you don't want to talk to,- " Tell them Im not here."
Bam! You just sinned. But you were baptized, and you never killed or lusted, or were greedy and you tithed and went to church and kept the Sabbath. " He who believeth in me shall have everlasting life." God is just and faithful, but you forgot to repent that white lie! You will suffer eternal damnation?? If that is the case NONE of us in America will make it because the system was designed for us to fail. We can love Christ with every ounce of our soul, and try as hard as we can but we were born sinners. Jesus Christ was not. None of us will ever measure up because there is always that one unrepented sin before an untimely death and Whoa! So close! You almost made it, but we have a lovely parting gift for you! Burning in hell and being tortured by demons for all of eternity! Thanks for playing!.

Your point is that even "white lies" are supposed to merit an eternity in hell and that because we are all sinners, Hell awaits--according to your understanding of what's the conventional view among the various Christian churches, that is.

But that is not their view.

So, in contrast to that view which no church that I can think of believes in, your theory is that universal salvation is the only possible answer.

You're probably close to being alone with that one. Even other universalists don't see it that way.

 

[Jaxxi]

I would contend that Christ ascending occurred after the resurrection not upon death. The reference to Mary has more to do with the spiritual nature of how believers would cling to Him spiritually not physically. Touch in that sense is really cling. Christ was no longer to be clung to in the physical sense as He was going away shortly. I know, it is confusing. I don't understand the section regarding Passover and the angel of death in the context of Christ. He did celebrate the Passover meal with the disciples where He instituted what we call communion. Christ was crucified on the day before Passover as we are told the priests did not want to defile themselves on Passover. In the Jewish method of counting days the Passover meal would have occurred the evening before Passover just as the Sabbath begins Friday evening into Saturday by our calendar. Christ was indeed in what some call Abraham's Bosom, which is where the thief would have gone after his belief in the Christ. The Bible tells us that Christ preached to those in Sheol or Hades, both which refer to the place of the dead. There is more that people infer from this visit to hell but much is speculation not scripture. I hope I have not written in a manner that does not portray my thoughts on this one.

But that aside there is no reference that I am aware of that repentance occurs after death which precludes the ability to repent in hades or hell. It is not, as quoted in the Revelation passage what is typically called hell. That would be the Lake of fire of revelation.

Since much of this is based on interpretation and speculation, I think you did a great job of articulating your take on it. We all know what it says- this is about us sharing ideas on what we think it means! Maybe it isn't about repenting so much because that might not count but if you have been burning alive for the equivalent of 4 years for lying, maybe as a believer you served your sentence and on the Day of Judgement your name is found in the Book of Life. They refer to the " second death" being thrown into the abyss, and you would have suffered the " first death" when you were baptized. If you met the mark and escaped Hades, you would be " resting in peace" until the Day of Judgement. I believe the only people enjoying Paradise currently are the people Christ took from Abraham's bosom when He ascended on the third day. People taken to heaven and shown its beauty describe meeting or seeing disciples, Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, Moses, Sarah, Elizabeth, Mary and about 2 dozen others but that for the most part the city is empty but FILLED with mansions with golden engraved name plates on every door with the names of the future owner on them. They said the mansions are furnished, set up and ready for the day and that all of the garments are finished and in the closets. Right now they are making the footwear and the last minute preparations because while they are doing this, everyone is getting ready like we would on earth for the big wedding. They said an angel was giving them a tour, but that Jesus can hardly contain Himself because He is so excited for everyone to come and see what He has prepared for them! The thought of our Lord being excited like this reminds me of how we feel Christmas morning before our kids get up and that makes me cry! How beautiful is that? Praise the Lord! I hope He knows how much we love Him...

 

[Jaxxi]

Your point is that even "white lies" are supposed to merit an eternity in hell and that because we are all sinners, Hell awaits--according to your understanding of what's the conventional view among the various Christian churches, that is.

But that is not their view.

So, in contrast to that view which no church that I can think of believes in, your theory is that universal salvation is the only possible answer.

You're probably close to being alone with that one. Even other universalists don't see it that way.

IHim...

I don't care how ANYONE sees it, I am going off what the Bible itself says!

You, however, are to be perfect, as · your heavenly Father · is perfect.
Matthew 5:48

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern the will of God, what is · good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:2

It is easier · · for heaven and · earth to pass away than for the smallest part of a single letter in the law to lose its force.
Luke 16:17

And if your hand causes you to sin, · cut it off; it is better for you to enter into · life crippled than having · two hands to go to · hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:43

I find it hard to believe I am the only person ever to have read these and assumed they were literal. I mean there is our idea of how we want it to be, and then there is what it says and if its one of the ten commandments, it might be a sin! Unless we think that God has amended His laws and now follows our Constitution....

 

[Albion]

IHim...

I don't care how ANYONE sees it, I am going off what the Bible itself says!

Yeh, I know. We're all entitled to our beliefs.

I was just saying that (1) you disagreed with certain ideas about salvation and damnation which, however, are NOT what the rest of Christianity believes; also that (2) even other Universalists don't agree with your conclusions.

That's interesting, don't you agree?

 

[Jaxxi]

I

Yeh, I know. We're all entitled to our beliefs.

I was just saying that (1) you disagreed with certain ideas about salvation and damnation which, however, are NOT what the rest of Christianity believes; also that (2) even other Universalists don't agree with your conclusions.

That's interesting, don't you agree?

Suppose but they aren't beliefs. It is just that the Bible reads differently, wouldn't you agree? I mean if thousands of people believe something other than what it says, then couldn't that be like the blind leading the blind? There are BILLIONS of people in hell right now, so if salvation is that easy, then why is that? I read somewhere that only 20% of people who ever lived will actually be saved. The Bible says " Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to · destruction, and many are those who enter through it." Matthew 7:13

So where do all these people get the idea about lots of people being saved? I know that lots of people think when we die we will all go to heaven and that is not necessarily untrue, since Hell is in the 3rd heaven. It is in the same heaven as Paradise, divided by Styx. There is a place in hell where the souls can see paradise but they cannot get there. It says this in The Book of Enoch.

 

[Albion]

I

Suppose but they aren't beliefs. It is just that the Bible reads differently, wouldn't you agree?

.
It is what you believe that I was speaking to. You said that you believe these views, and yes, it's because of your reading of Scripture. Millions of other Christians read the same verses and conclude differently, however. Frankly, I don't know anyone else who believes exactly what you outlined as your own "take" on the subject.

That's all right, of course, but it is something to consider--am I (or you, in this case) right and ALL those other people are unable to read and get the same information from it as I did. This is always good to consider when we find we are almost alone in our personal "take" on some Bible verses.

There are BILLIONS of people in hell right now, so if salvation is that easy, then why is that? I read somewhere that only 20% of people who ever lived will actually be saved.

Well, for one thing, most of the people of the world are not Christians and never gave a thought to Him, let alone accept him as Lord and Savior. That is the one condition that most Christians believe is essential to salvation.

The point you are making is the same one that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, made. In brief, it is that a good God just could not let most of the people who ever lived be lost. That's logical, but it's not very Scriptural. And you were appealing to Scripture in the previous post.

 

[Sketcher]

Ok so the sea gave up the dead, and Hades gave up the dead, and everyone stood before the Lord and is judged according to what He had done. Meaning the Book of Life had not been opened until then. So Hades, now empty is thrown into the lake of fire, along with those not in the Book of Life. My point is the Bible does not say that we will be judged twice, and it seems to me that before the Great Day of judgement, those in Hades have not been judged yet! If God is just and merciful, and someone commits a lesser sin ( because there are different degrees yet one can keep you from heaven) and the person has been in Hades burning for 3 years because he smoked a cigarette, on the Day of Judgement his name might still be in the Book of Life if he learned his lesson. The Lake of fire is eternal- it does not say Hades is eternal. That is my point.

If someone's name is in the Book of Life, why would that person be in Hades at all, especially after Christ came? The Book of Life contains the names of those God predestined for Heaven. Why would he send one of these people to Hades first?

 

[Jaxxi]

If someone's name is in the Book of Life, why would that person be in Hades at all, especially after Christ came? The Book of Life contains the names of those God predestined for Heaven. Why would he send one of these people to Hades first?

First of all, He does not send anyone to Hades- if they go there it is by choice and for 2, The Book of Life has not been opened yet

 

[Jaxxi]

.
It is what you believe that I was speaking to. You said that you believe these views, and yes, it's because of your reading of Scripture. Millions of other Christians read the same verses and conclude differently, however. Frankly, I don't know anyone else who believes exactly what you outlined as your own "take" on the subject.

That's all right, of course, but it is something to consider--am I (or you, in this case) right and ALL those other people are unable to read and get the same information from it as I did. This is always good to consider when we find we are almost alone in our personal "take" on some Bible verses.



Well, for one thing, most of the people of the world are not Christians and never gave a thought to Him, let alone accept him as Lord and Savior. That is the one condition that most Christians believe is essential to salvation.

The point you are making is the same one that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, made. In brief, it is that a good God just could not let most of the people who ever lived be lost. That's logical, but it's not very Scriptural. And you were appealing to Scripture in the previous post.

My " take" on it has to do with the fact that for the first time in human history people are dreaming dreams and having visions accompanied by Jesus being shown hell and are being told by Jesus to come back and warn His people that this place is real.

 

[Jaxxi]

I am not promoting anything but what Jesus' message is in these videos.

 

[Sketcher]

First of all, He does not send anyone to Hades- if they go there it is by choice

It did not seem like a choice in Luke 16:19-31.

The Book of Life has not been opened yet

Before I tell you whether I agree or disagree, I will ask: What is the implication of this?

 

[Albion]

My " take" on it has to do with the fact that for the first time in human history people are dreaming dreams and having visions accompanied by Jesus being shown hell and are being told by Jesus to come back and warn His people that this place is real.

I can't imagine why you'd think that such a phenomenon was occurring "for the first time in human history."

 

[Jaxxi]

If someone's name is in the Book of Life, why would that person be in Hades at all, especially after Christ came? The Book of Life contains the names of those God predestined for Heaven. Why would he send one of these people to Hades first?

To prepare them for heaven! Maybe they had a couple of stains on their white garment and they needed discipline to remove them. God always disciplines those He loves. The only reason Hades would give up its dead before judgement would be because not EVERYONE who is there is destined for it, no? Otherwise they would stay in it and it would be tossed as is.

 

[Jaxxi]

I can't imagine why you'd think that such a phenomenon was occurring "for the first time in human history."

Because if had been ongoing, more than 27% of people would believe in hells existence and people would be more mindful of their actions for fear of going there.

 

[Jaxxi]

It did not seem like a choice in Luke 16:19-31.


Before I tell you whether I agree or disagree, I will ask: What is the implication of this?

As for the choice, Luke 16:28 says
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Why would he warn them? Because his brothers could make the choice not to go there.
And the Book of Life was written before the creation of the world according to Revelation and is not opened again until Revelation. However one of the Psalms requests that God blot out some of the names of the book of life, but it never says if this was done or not. Jesus later states that He will not erase any of the names in The book of life so I do not think this was granted.

 

[Albion]

Because if had been ongoing, more than 27% of people would believe in hells existence and people would be more mindful of their actions for fear of going there.

Well, the point there was just that what you've referred to has a long history. It's been going on for centuries, not just lately.

We live in a time when news spreads around the globe in minutes, however, which wasn't always the way.

The result is that people think something that is unusual is actually commonplace, but the truth is that these incidents are just more easily spread around nowadays, whereas in the past, that was impossible.

 

[Jaxxi]

Here is the thing. These involve the Rapture. They come with a clear message- time is gone. The hourglass is empty. The time is Now! These kinds of dreams are not common, with Jesus warning them " If you do not tell all you saw and if anyone is lost that could've been saved from you're testimony, you will be held responsible. Go and tell my people. Because I am watching mankind FALLING into hell - no one is calling to me until it is too late. I suffered so that they don't have to, I DO NOT WANT ANYONE COMING HERE BUT IF THEY DO NOT CALL UPON ME IN LIFE, I can do nothing. Their human minds do not understand the way physical and spiritual law works. Tell them I love them and they need to repent daily."

That is the difference. Jesus is sending a concrete message that applies directly to the Christians of today.