Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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DavidPT

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There will be millions from all nations resurrected. They will have 1000 years to populate the earth.

What Scriptures are leading you to conclude this, in light of what Revelation 20:5-6 indicates? It indicates that only those who have part in the first resurrection, these are the only ones raised at the time. And based on other Scriptures, we know they put on immortality at the time. These would not be giving birth to anyone during the millennium.

Then verse 5 tells us that the rest of the dead don't get resurrected until the thousand years finishes first.

If there are mortals going into the millennium, they have to still be physically alive at the time. Where might some of these mortals be coming from? Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, explains where, and that none of those are meaning anyone that has been resurrected.
 
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parousia70

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In any case, in the Revelation you do not see the binding of Satan before the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ - your so-called "binding" took place a lot earlier than that, and it was a matter of Satan being overcome or overpowered. He was not even defeated yet because his defeat took place at the cross, as per Revelation 12.

I see you’ve amended your previous claim that the New Testament does not speak of Satan being bound before the Parousia, For as I have pointed out, and you have not refuted,
Matthew 12:28-29 undeniably testifies Jesus Bound Satan before He cast out demons.

I’m glad to see you’ve corrected your previous misunderstanding Now that I have illuminated it for you and our readers.
 
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parousia70

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Most will even reject this post about what is soon to come..

It’s always “soon to come” with you guys isn’t it? Although I can never figure out what you futurists mean by “soon”, because typically you guys always say soon means “thousands of years away”...
 
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Timtofly

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What Scriptures are leading you to conclude this, in light of what Revelation 20:5-6 indicates? It indicates that only those who have part in the first resurrection, these are the only ones raised at the time. And based on other Scriptures, we know they put on immortality at the time. These would not be giving birth to anyone during the millennium.

Then verse 5 tells us that the rest of the dead don't get resurrected until the thousand years finishes first.

If there are mortals going into the millennium, they have to still be physically alive at the time. Where might some of these mortals be coming from? Zechariah 14:16-19, for one, explains where, and that none of those are meaning anyone that has been resurrected.

You have to figure in the completion of God’s plan, Revelation 10:7

7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

This is not the Gospel of the church. The church was completed at the 6th Seal. Immortality is a glorified body. That is the church. Calling them mortals, is Greek paganism.

A resurrection of the body is the change from a body of death and decay to one that is incorruptible. Revelation 20 does not declare they are glorified. It would be a glorified body that cannot have biological offspring on earth. But an incorruptible body is still biological. You can interpret Genesis 2 how you wish, but biological birth was the effect of Eve being taken out of Adam. (Really off topic, but the sons of God may have been able to multiply without biology. We do know that biological birth became more difficult because of sin. But Adam and Eve had a different type of biological offspring even before sin, with Cain and Abel. Cain was able to have offspring with other sons of God.)

Jesus declares that glorified humans, the church, will be like the angels, more than likely until the NHNE. After the new reality, it is going to be totally different than ever was experienced by the original sons of God. Words can not explain the glory that is to come.

The point that people miss from this coming tribulation of the trumpets and thunders is that it is the final harvest. That is the Good News of the OT. A harvest that the sheep and wheat die, are physically harvested, to be resurrected in Revelation 20, at the first resurrection. So it is the sheep and wheat who live in the Millennium. Those chosen by the Lamb and the 144K disciples from Revelation 7 who are the remnant. But they do not go into the millennium in Adam's fallen sinful flesh. The Good News is that they will be resurrected in incorruptible bodies free from being part of the 2nd death in the lake of fire. So yes, the nations will be changed, but through the valley of the shadow of death. They will not go through Satan's 3.5 years. They will not be in heaven, but death, until raised from death.

Then there will be some who are beheaded by Satan who refuse to worship Satan and take the mark. Satan will still not be able to convince some during that time to totally reject God. These are the ones described raised at the first resurrection and live on earth during the millennium. Because this harvest is based on the OT promises, not the Atonement of the Cross. Did this people reject Christ? Not necessarily, they may not have been presented with the full knowledge of the Gospel. The church is in an apostate state. This year has even put a stop to some evangelism in modern countries with social distancing along with an apostate church already cold on the gospel. And many with a very different gospel to add to the lack of knowledge today.

The rapture is for the church, but the Second Coming in the 6th seal is the Lamb once again participating in a hands on physical ministry. The final harvest will take place as promised in the Gospels.
 
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Zao is life

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I see you’ve amended your previous claim that the New Testament does not speak of Satan being bound before the Parousia, For as I have pointed out, and you have not refuted,
Matthew 12:28-29 undeniably testifies Jesus Bound Satan before He cast out demons.

I’m glad to see you’ve corrected your previous misunderstanding Now that I have illuminated it for you and our readers.
I have not amended anything. You claim Satan was bound at the time of the cross. It's your false claim. Then you claim Satan was bound before the time of the cross..

You need to decide what you believe.
 
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chad kincham

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Jesus is not going to re-institute animal sacrifices in the millennium.

I also disagree with the common view among Christian Zonists that the dry bones living again mentioned in Ezekiel is referring to national Israel. The only Israel in God's book is those who are in Christ - Jew and Gentile alike

First of all, replacement theology, that claims that the church has replaced national Israel, is false.

Using a verse they think says Christians are spiritual Jews (that’s not what it means) they get off into error.

The new covenant Jesus gave us, is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, the genetic Jews, not spiritual Jews.

Proof of that is found in Romans 11, where Paul says God is not through with the nation of Israel, and wrote that gentiles who believe (the church) are GRAFTED IN by faith to the Jews new covenant.

In other words, the church has no covenant, National Israel has the new covenant.

Jesus was sent in the beginning, only to national Israel, and told the apostles He sent out, to go not into any gentile city, but only to the Jews, and Jesus identities the National Jewish people as the HOUSE of Israel

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into anycity of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel - with national Jews, not with so-called spiritual Jews:


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenanthad been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the HOUSE of Israel and with the house of Judah:

I said all that to prove that the bones Ezekiel saw come to life is the nation Israel:

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole HOUSE of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

More proof it’s the dry bones coming to life is about the rebirth of the nation of Israel is found on the same page:

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I amthe LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, AND I SHALL PLACE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,and performed it, saith the LORD.

The dry bones of the House of Israel came to life in 1948 when Israel returned to their landbecame a nation again, in 1948, just as Ezekiel prophesied.

As to animal sacrifices In Zechariah 14, the content of the passage proves it’s about animal sacrifice, which is probably why translators knew to use the word HEATHEN, instead of NATIONS, when describing them, because the text mentions the practice of boiling animal sacrifices in a pot:

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every POT in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that SACRIFICE shall come and take of them, AND SEETHE (boil)THEREIN, and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Looking at it that passage in modern English, makes it even more clear:

Zechariah 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in all Judah will be set apart for use in the worship of the LORD Almighty. The people who offer sacrifices will use them for boiling the meat of the sacrifices. When that time comes, there will no longer be any merchant in the Temple of the LORD Almighty.
 
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Timtofly

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It’s always “soon to come” with you guys isn’t it? Although I can never figure out what you futurists mean by “soon”, because typically you guys always say soon means “thousands of years away”...
Are you referring to God, as "you guys"? Is God a futurist? I did not write the Bible. Do you not attempt to fit the Bible into your own eyes?
 
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DavidPT

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As to animal sacrifices In Zechariah 14, the content of the passage proves it’s about animal sacrifice, which is probably why translators knew to use the word HEATHEN, instead of NATIONS, when describing them, because the text mentions the practice of boiling animal sacrifices in a pot:

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every POT in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that SACRIFICE shall come and take of them, AND SEETHE (boil)THEREIN, and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Looking at it that passage in modern English, makes it even more clear:

Zechariah 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in all Judah will be set apart for use in the worship of the LORD Almighty. The people who offer sacrifices will use them for boiling the meat of the sacrifices. When that time comes, there will no longer be any merchant in the Temple of the LORD Almighty.


I wonder how Amils interpret that particular verse? One thing that can't be denied, it is meaning after Jesus already came, died, rose, and ascended back to heaven. Even if it can fit in this age somehow, it would still have to be meaning after Jesus already came, died, rose, and ascended back to heaven. I have discussed verses 16-19 numerous times with Amils, but I have never discussed verse 21 with them that I ever recall.
 
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Zao is life

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The new covenant Jesus gave us, is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, the genetic Jews, not spiritual Jews.

The New Covenant was promised to both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah. The Jews, the genetic seed, are the house of Judah, not the house of Israel. Read the promise in Jeremiah 31:31 properly.

Concentrate now because I'm going to tell you what the mystery is that Paul was speaking about in Romans 11:25 - and try to keep an open mind:

Proof of that is found in Romans 11, where Paul says God is not through with the nation of Israel, and wrote that gentiles who believe (the church) are GRAFTED IN by faith to the Jews new covenant.

Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers at the instigation of Judah, and Joseph is in many respects the type of Jesus. Judah was a scoundrel. He harmed his father's household even after Joseph was sold into slavery at his instigation. It took repentance on Judah's part before Judah was forgiven and all Israel reconciled to Joseph.

THE MYSTERY Paul was referring to:

The house of Israel - the 10 Northern tribes - are collectively called "Ephraim" repeatedly in scripture. Jacob told Joseph that Ephraim's seed would become (in the Hebrew) the fullness of the Gentiles (Genesis 48:19); and the same verses in scripture which in their context apply only to the house of Israel - the 10 Northern tribes - are applied by Paul to Gentiles who believe in Jesus:

"Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.

Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel." (Hosea 1:10-11; Romans 9:26).

The vast majority of the Israelites (the 10 Northern tribes) were exiled from Israel (the Northern kingdom) by Assyria, and dispersed. Their descendants intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where the original tribes are untraceable today.

In other words, the Olive tree, Israel, is the Israel the New Covenant was promised to - ie the house of Israel AND the house of Judah, and the Gentiles who believe became grafted into that Olive tree among the believing remnant of the natural seed (the house of Judah), fulfilling Jacob's prophecy to Joseph regarding the seed of Ephraim and fulfilling the prophecy regarding "those upon whom God had no mercy, receiving mercy" and "in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God." (which in their Old Testament context applied only to the house of Israel, not the house of Judah).

Gentiles are grafted into the Olive tree through their faith - but we are grafted into the house of Israel, not the house of Judah. We do not become Jews, even though we become Jews, inwardly. In Christ the two sticks of Israel and Judah become one stick. It fulfills the prophesy in Ezekiel 37, and the words of Jacob to Joseph regarding the seed of Ephraim, and the prophecy to the house of Israel which Paul applied to Gentiles also who believe in Jesus.

This is why Paul says later in the same chapter of Romans:

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." (Romans 11:31).

It's because God told the house of Israel He would no longer have mercy on them and He would not be their God, but He would have mercy on the house of Judah (that's what God said to Israel at the time, it's part of the prophecy, if you look it up) - but then He had mercy on the house of Israel again because of the unbelief of the house of Judah.

So therefore,

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." (Romans 11:31).

BUT Joseph did not reconcile with his brothers until Judah repented - then they came and dwelled with him in the idyllic land of Goshen during a prolonged period of peace and prosperity, which eventually was ended by the rising of a different type of Pharaoh who had no regard for Joseph or Israel (the millennium and the close of the millennium).

Joseph had all the authority of Pharaoh, and could have had all his brothers put to death for what they had done to him, before he even told them who he was, and they would have been none the wiser - but he did not - he forgave them when Judah repented, and then all Israel was reconciled to Joseph and to their father, Jacob.

In other words, the church has no covenant, National Israel has the new covenant.

No. The New Covenant was promised to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Unbelieving Jews are broken off from Israel completely until Judah repents - but they are still loved for the sake of the fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Judah will repent - they will look on Him whom they have pierced and will mourn for Him .. (Zechariah 12).
Jesus was sent in the beginning, only to national Israel, and told the apostles He sent out, to go not into any gentile city, but only to the Jews, and Jesus identities the National Jewish people as the HOUSE of Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into anycity of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.

Aha.. and in those days there were still diaspora congregations of the descendants of the Northern tribes in existence in the Roman world, who traced their ancestry back to the house of Israel, so think about this:

Who has received mercy as a result of the unbelief of the house of Judah? Who became called "the sons of the living God in the place of where it was said to them "Ye are not My people and I will not be your God?"
(Is it the house of Judah? Or the house of Israel?)

The New Covenant is not promised only to the house of Judah.


Ezekiel prophesied that the two sticks - of Ephraim and of Judah - would become one in the hand of God.

The promises are to both.

Paul wept because Judah had been broken off (he was a Benjamite - and the house of Judah consisted of Benjamin and Judah). How do you think Jesus feels?

You should not be trying to include them via the back door - you should be telling them that their only Messiah is Jesus and without faith in Him they have no covenant with God (because THAT'S the truth). The ONLY door, is Jesus, and until the house of Judah repents, they will not be reconciled to God. Their reconciliation will come only through their faith in Jesus.
 
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sovereigngrace

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First of all, replacement theology, that claims that the church has replaced national Israel, is false.

Using a verse they think says Christians are spiritual Jews (that’s not what it means) they get off into error.

The new covenant Jesus gave us, is with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, the genetic Jews, not spiritual Jews.

Proof of that is found in Romans 11, where Paul says God is not through with the nation of Israel, and wrote that gentiles who believe (the church) are GRAFTED IN by faith to the Jews new covenant.

In other words, the church has no covenant, National Israel has the new covenant.

Jesus was sent in the beginning, only to national Israel, and told the apostles He sent out, to go not into any gentile city, but only to the Jews, and Jesus identities the National Jewish people as the HOUSE of Israel

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into anycity of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel - with national Jews, not with so-called spiritual Jews:


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenanthad been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the HOUSE of Israel and with the house of Judah:

I said all that to prove that the bones Ezekiel saw come to life is the nation Israel:

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole HOUSE of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

More proof it’s the dry bones coming to life is about the rebirth of the nation of Israel is found on the same page:

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I amthe LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, AND I SHALL PLACE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,and performed it, saith the LORD.

The dry bones of the House of Israel came to life in 1948 when Israel returned to their landbecame a nation again, in 1948, just as Ezekiel prophesied.

As to animal sacrifices In Zechariah 14, the content of the passage proves it’s about animal sacrifice, which is probably why translators knew to use the word HEATHEN, instead of NATIONS, when describing them, because the text mentions the practice of boiling animal sacrifices in a pot:

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every POT in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that SACRIFICE shall come and take of them, AND SEETHE (boil)THEREIN, and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Looking at it that passage in modern English, makes it even more clear:

Zechariah 14:21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in all Judah will be set apart for use in the worship of the LORD Almighty. The people who offer sacrifices will use them for boiling the meat of the sacrifices. When that time comes, there will no longer be any merchant in the Temple of the LORD Almighty.

Dispensationalists are quick to speak on behalf of their opponents and slow to listen to how their brethren actually understand the whole dynamic between Israel and the Church. They commonly disparagingly throw the “Replacement Theology” charge at those they disagree with. They also deem their opponents as believing in ‘Supersessionism Theology’ (from the Latin supersedere: ‘to be superior to’). Dispensationalists allege that their evangelical opponents believe (1) the Church has replaced ethnic Israel and that (2) God has no further future plans for the nation of Israel. They claim such without any factual or fair basis for doing so.

Dispensationalists create a straw man either through genuine ignorance, because they don’t really get what Covenant Theology teaches, or as a deliberate willful attempt to twist, smear and discredit their brethren who believe that God has only ever had one people from the beginning. Regardless, their charge is a logical fallacy. Despite being robustly challenged and repeatedly corrected, many continue to hurl this depreciatory slur in an attempt to justify their own questionable teaching. It is employed by most to intentionally misrepresent their opponent’s position. When all is said and done, this only serves to expose the weakness of the Dispensational position rather than carry any real, valid or accurate theological credence.

A strawman argument occurs when one misrepresents another’s argument in order to make it easier to discredit it. It involves a picture being presented that doesn’t accurately reflect the beliefs of the one you are debating. By exaggerating, distorting, or fabricating someone’s position, it makes it much easier to present your own position as plausible and logical. But this type of underhand tactic only serves to prevent open, honest, profitable, rational and objective discussion.

John MacArthur is one of many Dispensationalists who hurl this misleading charge. Kim Riddlebarger cuts across MacArthur’s ad-hoc use of this slight, and ably responds: “this is a label slapped on us by those who disagree with our eschatology. But this is not (and never has been) how we identify ourselves” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

Those who believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start do not hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

Riddlebarger continues: “Israel is not ‘replaced’ by the church. Rather, the people of God (believing Jews and Gentiles) in the Old Covenant era are vastly supplemented by believers from every nation tribe and tongue in the New Covenant. This is not ‘replacement theology’. It should be called ‘expansion theology’ since the people of God become so numerous after the coming of Christ that the multitude in heaven cannot be counted (Revelation 7:9-10). In fact, that multitude encompasses people from the ends of the earth, including many ethnic Jews who are among the elect and believe in Jesus, because Jesus Christ has been revealed to them by a gracious God” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.
 
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chad kincham

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Dispensationalists are quick to speak on behalf of their opponents and slow to listen to how their brethren actually understand the whole dynamic between Israel and the Church. They commonly disparagingly throw the “Replacement Theology” charge at those they disagree with. They also deem their opponents as believing in ‘Supersessionism Theology’ (from the Latin supersedere: ‘to be superior to’). Dispensationalists allege that their evangelical opponents believe (1) the Church has replaced ethnic Israel and that (2) God has no further future plans for the nation of Israel. They claim such without any factual or fair basis for doing so.

Dispensationalists create a straw man either through genuine ignorance, because they don’t really get what Covenant Theology teaches, or as a deliberate willful attempt to twist, smear and discredit their brethren who believe that God has only ever had one people from the beginning. Regardless, their charge is a logical fallacy. Despite being robustly challenged and repeatedly corrected, many continue to hurl this depreciatory slur in an attempt to justify their own questionable teaching. It is employed by most to intentionally misrepresent their opponent’s position. When all is said and done, this only serves to expose the weakness of the Dispensational position rather than carry any real, valid or accurate theological credence.

A strawman argument occurs when one misrepresents another’s argument in order to make it easier to discredit it. It involves a picture being presented that doesn’t accurately reflect the beliefs of the one you are debating. By exaggerating, distorting, or fabricating someone’s position, it makes it much easier to present your own position as plausible and logical. But this type of underhand tactic only serves to prevent open, honest, profitable, rational and objective discussion.

John MacArthur is one of many Dispensationalists who hurl this misleading charge. Kim Riddlebarger cuts across MacArthur’s ad-hoc use of this slight, and ably responds: “this is a label slapped on us by those who disagree with our eschatology. But this is not (and never has been) how we identify ourselves” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

Those who believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start do not hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

Riddlebarger continues: “Israel is not ‘replaced’ by the church. Rather, the people of God (believing Jews and Gentiles) in the Old Covenant era are vastly supplemented by believers from every nation tribe and tongue in the New Covenant. This is not ‘replacement theology’. It should be called ‘expansion theology’ since the people of God become so numerous after the coming of Christ that the multitude in heaven cannot be counted (Revelation 7:9-10). In fact, that multitude encompasses people from the ends of the earth, including many ethnic Jews who are among the elect and believe in Jesus, because Jesus Christ has been revealed to them by a gracious God” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

Firstly, I did not mention any particular group. There are other groups besides yours, as surprising as you might find that fact, that believe in various versions of replacement theology, including those that do believe God has cast out Israel completely.
I do believe you’re just a wee bit touchy on the topic, and overly defensive. Tsk, tsk.
 
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chad kincham

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Dispensationalists are quick to speak on behalf of their opponents and slow to listen to how their brethren actually understand the whole dynamic between Israel and the Church. They commonly disparagingly throw the “Replacement Theology” charge at those they disagree with. They also deem their opponents as believing in ‘Supersessionism Theology’ (from the Latin supersedere: ‘to be superior to’). Dispensationalists allege that their evangelical opponents believe (1) the Church has replaced ethnic Israel and that (2) God has no further future plans for the nation of Israel. They claim such without any factual or fair basis for doing so.

Dispensationalists create a straw man either through genuine ignorance, because they don’t really get what Covenant Theology teaches, or as a deliberate willful attempt to twist, smear and discredit their brethren who believe that God has only ever had one people from the beginning. Regardless, their charge is a logical fallacy. Despite being robustly challenged and repeatedly corrected, many continue to hurl this depreciatory slur in an attempt to justify their own questionable teaching. It is employed by most to intentionally misrepresent their opponent’s position. When all is said and done, this only serves to expose the weakness of the Dispensational position rather than carry any real, valid or accurate theological credence.

A strawman argument occurs when one misrepresents another’s argument in order to make it easier to discredit it. It involves a picture being presented that doesn’t accurately reflect the beliefs of the one you are debating. By exaggerating, distorting, or fabricating someone’s position, it makes it much easier to present your own position as plausible and logical. But this type of underhand tactic only serves to prevent open, honest, profitable, rational and objective discussion.

John MacArthur is one of many Dispensationalists who hurl this misleading charge. Kim Riddlebarger cuts across MacArthur’s ad-hoc use of this slight, and ably responds: “this is a label slapped on us by those who disagree with our eschatology. But this is not (and never has been) how we identify ourselves” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

Those who believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start do not hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Remnant Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Expansion Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

Riddlebarger continues: “Israel is not ‘replaced’ by the church. Rather, the people of God (believing Jews and Gentiles) in the Old Covenant era are vastly supplemented by believers from every nation tribe and tongue in the New Covenant. This is not ‘replacement theology’. It should be called ‘expansion theology’ since the people of God become so numerous after the coming of Christ that the multitude in heaven cannot be counted (Revelation 7:9-10). In fact, that multitude encompasses people from the ends of the earth, including many ethnic Jews who are among the elect and believe in Jesus, because Jesus Christ has been revealed to them by a gracious God” (John MacArthur on Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Israel and Hermeneutics: A Few Comments).

God has not ditched old Israel and started over again with a new Israel (Replacement Theology), neither has He split His covenant people into two different groups (Segregation Theology), but rather He has “grafted” the Gentiles into the one historic believing people of God – true Israel. Romans 11:17 tells us that God has incorporated the Gentiles into the elect of God. This integration is clearly not replacement, it is addition. It is a combining of peoples. There is manifestly one unbroken unitary spiritual line of elect from Adam right up until today.

Firstly, I did not mention any particular group. There are other groups besides yours, as surprising as you might find that fact, that believe in various versions of replacement theology, including those that do believe God has cast out Israel completely.
I do believe you’re just a wee bit touchy on the topic.
BTW, the Bible teaches dispensations, not me.
You should not be trying to include them via the back door - you should be telling them that their only Messiah is Jesus and without faith in Him they have no covenant with God (because THAT'S the truth). The ONLY door, is Jesus, and until the house of Judah repents, they will not be reconciled to God. Their reconciliation will come only through their faith in Jesus.

The whole point of my entire comment was that God has not cast out Israel - and I cited Romans 11, in which Paul never once mentioned Judah after his opening statement, but Israel only - and Jesus never mentioned Judah, when He said He came ONLY for the House of Israel.

And there is no back door for Israel - Paul explained clearly that all Israel alive to see the deliverer come out of Zion (Jesus) will then believe, and be saved.

I’d say that means they will see Jesus and realize He is their Messiah, after He delivers Jerusalem from total destruction in Zechariah 14.

But thanks for your input, lots of good information in it.

Blessings.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Firstly, I did not mention any particular group. There are other groups besides yours, as surprising as you might find that fact, that believe in various versions of replacement theology, including those that do believe God has cast out Israel completely.
I do believe you’re just a wee bit touchy on the topic.
BTW, the Bible teaches dispensations, not me.


The whole point of my entire comment was that God has not cast out Israel - and I cited Romans 11, in which Paul never once mentioned Judah after his opening statement, but Israel only - and Jesus never mentioned Judah, when He said He came ONLY for the House of Israel.

And there is no back door for Israel - Paul explained clearly that all Israel alive to see the deliverer come out of Zion (Jesus) will then believe, and be saved.

I’d say that means they will see Jesus and realize He is their Messiah, after He delivers Jerusalem from total destruction in Zechariah 14.

But thanks for your input, lots of good information in it.

Blessings.

Are you Pretrib?
 
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Zao is life

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The whole point of my entire comment was that God has not cast out Israel - and I cited Romans 11, in which Paul never once mentioned Judah after his opening statement, but Israel only - and Jesus never mentioned Judah, when He said He came ONLY for the House of Israel.

And there is no back door for Israel - Paul explained clearly that all Israel alive to see the deliverer come out of Zion (Jesus) will then believe, and be saved.

I’d say that means they will see Jesus and realize He is their Messiah, after He delivers Jerusalem from total destruction in Zechariah 14.

But thanks for your input, lots of good information in it.

Blessings.
At Judah's instigation, Israel betrayed their brother into the hands of Gentiles, selling him into slavery. They may as well have handed him over to death, because they had no knowledge or control from that point onward, of what would become of him.

They dipped his robe in blood and took it to their father to show him that Joseph was dead.

The robe dipped in blood, in the eyes of Jacob who had been so sorely betrayed by his own sons, was proof that Joseph was dead.

Of who else is it said He has a robe dipped in blood?

But in Joseph's case, though they had betrayed him, it was a lie. In Jacob's experience, Jacob was to receive him back from death and see him alive again.

At Judah's instigation, Joseph was betrayed into the hands of Gentiles to do with him as they saw fit, for 20 pieces of silver. Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Jesus called Judas the son of perdition, and he represents those Jews who rejected and betrayed their brother, Jesus, as well as those who approve of what their ancestors did.

There is only one other man the New Testament calls the son of perdition and that is the man of sin.

There are descendants of Judah who repent and believe, showing that they are people after God's own heart, like king David, but they are a remnant - just as it's only a remnant of Gentiles who repent and believe in Jesus.

The New Covenant is made with both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah - but Jesus is the only door. No one comes in via the back door, and whoever is outside, is not part of Israel, whether genetically a descendant of Judah or Benjamin, or not.

Therefore the New Covenant does not belong to the genetic descendants, unless they, too, believe in Jesus. The New Covenant is in Christ, through His blood - His robe is dipped in blood - His own blood - and HE AND HE ALONE is the seed of Abraham through whom all the families of the earth would be blessed.

Your exaltation of unbelieving Jews, which you displayed in your first post when you falsely claimed the New Covenant "belongs to them because they are the genetic seed" is idolatry. You're worshiping the golden calf they have erected for themselves in their wilderness.
 
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BABerean2

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BTW, the Bible teaches dispensations, not me.

The original source of modern Dispensational Theology is found below in this video I produced for YouTube. The doctrine is less than 200 years old.

If you look at the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons from the time of the American Revolutionary War you will not find your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology


Who has replaced the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16?

Who has replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?

Who has replaced the word "Abraham", with the word "Israel" in Genesis 12?

Those who often accuse others of teaching "Replacement Theology" are the masters of it.

.
 
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Zao is life

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Who has replaced the one people of God, with two peoples of God in John 10:16?

Who has replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?

Who has replaced the word "Abraham", with the word "Israel" in Genesis 12?
Agreed
Those who often accuse others of teaching "Replacement Theology" are the masters of it.
Fully agree. I have said exactly the same thing myself, in different words.

The people who replace (God's only) Israel with a non-Israel which consists only of a genetic seed of Judah who reject Christ, are the people who are teaching Replacement Theology. Their false accusation will come down on their own heads because they're telling God He has no right to have put His New Covenant in Christ alone.

If only you would understand that just because Dispensationalists are Pre-Millennialists, this does not mean that all Pre-Mills are Dispenses. Not all Pre-mills believe in a physical 3rd temple in Jerusalem, or support any temple except the body of Christ. Not all Pre-mills put a nation which rejects Christ and the New Covenant in Christ, as God's chosen nation.

You need to separate the millenium from the people, and keep it linked to the Son of Man - because the one thousand year reign of Christ is all about Christ and not about us.
 
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claninja

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The first thing we should take note of is that the New Testament was first written in ancient Greek; and in the Greek, χιλιάς chiliás = a thousand (one thousand); and every time the word "thousand" appears in Revelation chapter 20, it's a translation of the Greek word χιλιάς [ chiliás ].

A thousand (one-thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.

Two-thousands: δισχίλιοι dischílioi (example Mark 5:13).

Three-thousands: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi (example Acts 2:41).

Four-thousands: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi (example Matthew 15:38).

Seven-thousands: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi (example Romans 11:4).

Five-thousands: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi (example Matthew 14:21).

Five thousand: (five times a thousand) Five (πέντε pénte) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = pénte chiliás, five thousand (example Acts 4:4).

Ten thousand: (ten times a thousand) Ten (δέκα déka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = déka chiliás, ten thousand (example Luke 14:31).

Ten-thousands: μύριοι mýrioi (example 1 Corinthians 4:15).

Twelve thousand: (twelve times a thousand) Twelve (δώδεκα dṓdeka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = dṓdeka chiliás, twelve thousand (example Revelation 7:5).

Twenty thousand: Twenty (εἴκοσι eíkosi) times a thousand ((χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = eíkosi chiliás, twenty thousand (example Luke 14:31).

Fifty thousand: Five (πέντε pénte) times ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás) = pénte myriás, fifty ten-thousands (example Acts 19:19).

Thousands: μυριάς myriás (example Acts 21:20). It's also used for ten-thousands, and for an innumerable number, for example:

Revelation 5:11
"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás) times ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás), and a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás)".

Every time the word "thousand" appears in Revelation chapter 20, it's a translation of the Greek word χιλιάς [ chiliás ] - one thousand only.

-----------------------------------​

The second thing we should take note of, is that Revelation chapter 20 verses 1-3 clearly speaks of Satan being bound and locked up in the bottomless pit:

"And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás) years. And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time."

Yet in his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

So is Satan bound (or partially bound, or restricted) right now, and has he been over these last 2,000 years?

----------------------------------------​

In order to answer this question, the third thing we should take note of, is that Revelation chapter 12 speaks of Satan's ability to accuse the brethren before God having been completely destroyed; and we know this is by the cross of Christ because we are told that "they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." (Revelation 12:11).

Therefore Satan, the accuser, had no legal right to appear in the court room anymore.

Immediately after this we are told that the devil has been cast out of heaven, and has come down to the earth and the sea "having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." (Revelation 12:12). We are then told about Satan going to war against "the woman" who had given birth to the Messiah, and then against "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:13-17), which of course, refers to Satan's war against the churches of Christ.

-----------------------------------------------​

The fourth thing we should take note of, is that both Jesus and His apostles taught, by implication of the things they said to the churches, that Satan is very active in the world:-

In Revelation 2:12 Jesus tells the church at Pergamos, "I know your works, and where you live, even where Satan's seat is. And you hold fast My name and have not denied My faith, even in those days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells."

In Revelation 2:9-10 Jesus tells the church in Smyrna, "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.".

In his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

In Ephesians 6:11-12 Paul tells the Christians in Ephesus to "put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil", and then continues to say, "because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places".

In Acts 26:17-18, we read of Jesus telling Paul that He was sending Paul to the Gentiles ""To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

In Acts 5:3 we read that Peter said to a man named Ananias, "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

In Romans 16:20, Paul tells the church in Rome that "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

In 1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul tells the church in Corinth to deliver the person who had sinned grievously unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

In 1 Corinthians 7:5 Paul says to the married couples in the same church, "Do not deprive one another, unless it is with consent for a time, so that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer. And come together again so that Satan does not tempt you for your incontinence."

In 2 Corinthians 2:11 Paul tells the same church to forgive the person who sinned "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

In 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 Paul refers to teachers of false doctrines who sought to beguile Christians as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ", and then goes on to say, "Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:14-15).

So Paul was calling the teachers of false doctrine "ministers (servants) of Satan".

In 1 Thessalonians 2:18 Paul tells the Christians in Thessaloniki that he had and those who accompanied him on his journeys tried to come to them, "but Satan hindered us."

In 1 Timothy 5:15 Paul says that some Christians "have already turned aside after Satan."

In 1 Timothy 3:6-7 Paul says that anyone desiring the office of a Bishop should "not a novice, lest being puffed up he may fall into the condemnation of the Devil; and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil."

James tells Christians, "Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7).

Peter tells Christians to "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour; whom firmly resist in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions in the world are being completed in your brotherhood." (1 Peter 5:8-9).

-----------------------------------------------------------------​

Over and over again, the activities of Satan in the world, whom Paul calls "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not," is referred to in the New Testament, and Christians are warned and exhorted to be aware of this, and of the wiles of Satan, and to resist him.

In stark contrast to this, not once - not ever - does the New Testament outside of Revelation chapter 20 speak of Satan being bound, nor "partially bound" by having his activities in the earth restricted (any more than his activities in the world have always been restricted to an extent by God, from the time of the fall of Adam onward, throughout the Bible, where many times we read of cases where the activities of Satan in the world were restricted).


Therefore in my opinion, the only Biblical conclusion we can come to regarding the one thousand year period written about in Revelation chapter 20, is that this period has not yet come.

In my opinion, this should not be surprising to any Christian who reads the book of Revelation and learns from the Revelation that at the time the Revelation was penned, "the beast" (which the Revelation states will ascend from the abyss and be defeated by Christ at the time of His return, and then be destroyed by Christ in "the lake of fire burning with brimstone") "was" (existed at one time), "is not" (does not exist anymore), "and will ascend out of the abyss, and go to perdition".

The Revelation teaches that Satan will likewise be destroyed in the lake of fire after a thousand years - where the beast and and its false prophet (already) are.

In my opinion any eschatology ("end-times theology) presented by any church which teaches that Satan is (already) currently bound in some manner, is therefore patently false, and is probably based on a theological castle of sand built on the sea's side of the high tide mark.

The debate between whether the millennium is literal or symbolic is nothing new.

A.) A few Historical church figures in favor of a literal 1,000 years at Christ's 2nd advent:

Justin Martyr
“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” -

Tertullian
“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘let down from heaven,’ which the apostle also calls ‘our mother from above;’ and, while declaring that our politeuma, or citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld.” -

Lactantius
“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command. Which the Sibyl proclaims in another place, as she utters her inspired predictions:—Hear me, you mortals; an everlasting King reigns” -

B.) A few Historical church figures in favor of a symbolic 1,000 years that occur at Christ's 1st advent:

Augustine of Hippo
But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming,”
“Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world—a thousand years; or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fulness of time.” -

Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea
"[Papias] says that after the resurrection of the dead [invariably linked with the return of the resurrected Christ] there will be a period of a thousand years, when Christ's kingdom will be set up on this earth in material form. I suppose he got these notions by misinterpreting the apostolic accounts and failing to grasp what they had said in mystic and symbolic language. For he seems to have been a man of very small intelligence, to judge from his books. But it is partly due to him that the great majority of churchmen after him took the same view, relying on his early date [i.e., on the fact that he lived early enough to hear the Apostle John in person]." -

Victorinus of Pettau (probably inserted by Jerome)
Those years wherein Satan is bound are in the first advent of Christ, even to the end of the age; and they are called a thousand, according to that mode of speaking, wherein a part is signified by the whole, just as is that passage, the word which He commanded for a thousand generations, although they are not a thousand.”

Jerome of Stridon
"These four great beasts are the four kingdoms which shall arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High God shall take the kingdom." The four kingdoms of which we have spoken above were earthly in character. "For everything which is of the earth shall return to earth" (Eccl. 3:20). But the saints shall never possess an earthly kingdom, but only a heavenly. Away, then, with the fable about a millennium!”-



IMHO it comes down to:

Do you believe revelation is new information that the apostles were not aware of and/or Jesus didn't teach about?

If yes, then it must be interpreted literally and as information on the Kingdom of God in addition to the gospels and epistles, or face being splintered into 1,000s of different interpretations, with no way to validate who has the correct interpretation.

If no, then Revelation should be interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles and made to fit with the gospel and epistolic narrative.



 
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DavidPT

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IMHO it comes down to:

Do you believe revelation is new information that the apostles were not aware of and/or Jesus didn't teach about?

If yes, then it must be interpreted literally and as information on the Kingdom of God in addition to the gospels and epistles, or face being splintered into 1,000s of different interpretations, with no way to validate who has the correct interpretation.

If no, then Revelation should be interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles and made to fit with the gospel and epistolic narrative.




Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This has to be meaning after Jesus bodily returns to the earth in the end of this age. We are left to conclude one of two things here. Either this is meaning for forever it will be like this, or it's only meaning for a certain period of time that it will be like what is described.


1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If the passages I submitted from Matthew 19 and Luke 22 are not meaning it will be like that for forever, but that none of that is fulfilled until Christ bodily returns first, obviously it would have be meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:24 and verse 28 are fulfilled.

Amils typically conclude that when Jesus returns there are no more days after that. They teach that within the same 24 hour day Jesus returns, all of the wicked are destroyed, satan is cast into the LOF, all of the dead are raised, and that the great white throne judgment occurs from start to finish---all of this within a 24 hour day or less--lol. Assuming Amils are correct here, regardless that to some of us their interpretation of the timing of some of these events make zero sense, and assuming Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 are not meaning it will be like that for forever, are we to then believe these two verses are only meaning for a period of 24 hours or less?
 
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Zao is life

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The debate between whether the millennium is literal or symbolic is nothing new.

A.) A few Historical church figures in favor of a literal 1,000 years at Christ's 2nd advent:

Justin Martyr
“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” -

Tertullian
“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘let down from heaven,’ which the apostle also calls ‘our mother from above;’ and, while declaring that our politeuma, or citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld.” -

Lactantius
“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command. Which the Sibyl proclaims in another place, as she utters her inspired predictions:—Hear me, you mortals; an everlasting King reigns” -

B.) A few Historical church figures in favor of a symbolic 1,000 years that occur at Christ's 1st advent:

Augustine of Hippo
But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming,”
“Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world—a thousand years; or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fulness of time.” -

Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea
"[Papias] says that after the resurrection of the dead [invariably linked with the return of the resurrected Christ] there will be a period of a thousand years, when Christ's kingdom will be set up on this earth in material form. I suppose he got these notions by misinterpreting the apostolic accounts and failing to grasp what they had said in mystic and symbolic language. For he seems to have been a man of very small intelligence, to judge from his books. But it is partly due to him that the great majority of churchmen after him took the same view, relying on his early date [i.e., on the fact that he lived early enough to hear the Apostle John in person]." -

Victorinus of Pettau (probably inserted by Jerome)
Those years wherein Satan is bound are in the first advent of Christ, even to the end of the age; and they are called a thousand, according to that mode of speaking, wherein a part is signified by the whole, just as is that passage, the word which He commanded for a thousand generations, although they are not a thousand.”

Jerome of Stridon
"These four great beasts are the four kingdoms which shall arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High God shall take the kingdom." The four kingdoms of which we have spoken above were earthly in character. "For everything which is of the earth shall return to earth" (Eccl. 3:20). But the saints shall never possess an earthly kingdom, but only a heavenly. Away, then, with the fable about a millennium!”-



IMHO it comes down to:

Do you believe revelation is new information that the apostles were not aware of and/or Jesus didn't teach about?

If yes, then it must be interpreted literally and as information on the Kingdom of God in addition to the gospels and epistles, or face being splintered into 1,000s of different interpretations, with no way to validate who has the correct interpretation.

If no, then Revelation should be interpreted through the lens of the gospels and epistles and made to fit with the gospel and epistolic narrative.

Thank you for that. I like the way you have produced facts without stating what they should or should not point to. The point of my OP is also to point to facts, but I added my opinion regarding what they point to.
 
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BABerean2

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You need to separate the millenium from the people, and keep it linked to the Son of Man - because the one thousand year reign of Christ is all about Christ and not about us.

I used to believe the Premill doctrine, until I discovered the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that it contains symbolic language.

I also found out it does not agree with the words of Christ, Peter, and Paul in the New Testament.

Many of the promoters of the doctrine try to make it work by going to the less clear passages of the Old Testament.

One last thing killed the doctrine for me.
I will never be able to see Christ conducting funeral services for dead mortals for a period of 1,000 years after His Second Coming. If there are mortals living on the planet for that time period, some of them are going to die in accidents.


The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
Jesus, and Paul, and Peter say the fire comes at His return.

The judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation 20.
Paul said the judgment of the living and the dead comes at His appearing.
The judgment of the dead is also in Revelation 11:15-18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

.
 
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