Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

The Righterzpen · Oct 2, 2020

claninja said:
This doesn't address Jesus' use of it.

Jesus has hosea 10:8b coming to fulfillment within is audience's life time. In regards to "yourselves and for your children".

The crucifixion ended the need for sacrifices and nothing but thorns and thistles sprung up on their alters. And all this happened in the life time of the people Jesus was talking to.

claninja said:
Therefore, using scripture to interpret scripture, If Jesus applies hosea 10:8b to 70ad, then Revelation 6's use of it is in the same manner.

Yet, what you think Jesus is connecting Hosea to and what I think Jesus is connecting Hosea to are two different events.

claninja said:
No, parable of the net in matthew 13.

There's no parable (that I'm seeing at least) about a net in Matthew 13.

claninja said:
If God spoke to the prophets of Israel in dreams, visions, riddles, etc, and not in clear language like he did with moses, then why are you interpreting the NHNE in Isaiah as literal?

Because the symbolic dreams visions and riddles had literal fulfillment in Christ. Much of the symbolic / vision language is giving you a pictorial representation of something happening in a realm that you don't see. But just because you don't see it with physical eyes; doesn't mean it isn't real.

claninja said:
As stated before, I disagree. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

You disagree with what? That the literal cosmos will be destroyed or that the literal cosmos has been destroyed?

claninja said:
Yes, I would be on the spectrum of partial preterism that is closer to full preterism. But I am not a full preterist, as I don't believe all is fulfilled yet.

So... what is yet to be fulfilled? If you don't believe the literal cosmos will be destroyed; where is your Scriptural evidence to back up what you believe?

claninja said:
So then the men I quoted believe the exact opposite of what they wrote? I disagree. I know none of the men are full preterists, and do believe in a literal future heaven and earth recreation. But also believe in part we are in the NHNE as far as the gospel dispensation go and believe the earth shattering language of prophets do in part agree with the destruction of Jerusalem

So your accusation is still false, unless you can prove otherwise. If you want to claim something is false, then back it up.

Nice back track here! :oldthumbsup:

You agree they believe in a destruction of the cosmos. Yet the only thing you've proven with what you've posted about what they said; is that "Jews believe X...." This is not a confirmation that they agree with the Jews.

claninja said:
I would be interested in hearing what you believe about the New Jerusalem. Whether you believe it is a literal cube that comes down from heaven or if it is symbolic for a greater spiritual truth? Do you disagree with the comparing scripture that I used in regards to the NJ and the body of CHrist?

Yes, I believe the New Jerusalem is / will be a literal place. How it is described to us now is in symbolic terms of a realm we currently can't see.

claninja said:
In other words, your confirming your own confirmation bias.

And almost as vehemently as you are confirming your own!

So again I ask you; seeing how I'm not convinced by what you've said that you have a proper interpretation of Scripture and it doesn't seem to me that I would convince you that I have a proper interpretation of Scripture - so what's the point of this conversation to you?

claninja · Oct 2, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
And yet Revelation 13:8 "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (also "Perfect tense" - meaning something that happened in the past) isn't modified by "not yet".

If the atonement was actually completed before creation began; then what does THAT actually mean in the context of time? We have a "happened already" and "not yet" at the same time.

Can you wrap your brain around that one?

This does not address John 20:17, and Jesus Himself stating he had NOT YET ascended.

The Righterzpen said:
Yet what he says is both "present" and "perfect" tense!

Jesus says to Mary; tell my brethren I am ascending.. (yet he's standing right there)! So... can you wrap your brain around that one?

Yes, the same way God stated to Moses in the present tense "I AM the God of Abraham...." as proof of the resurrection of the dead, which was future.

The same way my wife tells me she "has NOT YET gone to the grocery store".

The same way my wife tells me she is "going to the grocery store today", but has not left the house yet.

The Righterzpen said:
So, we have a couple of things to reconcile.
1. Tells Mary don't touch me; I haven't yet ascended.
2. Tells Mary to tell the brethren he is ascending (present tense).
3. Didn't ascend prior to other people touching him.

And this same word "touch" is used in other places where other's touch Jesus or he touches them; whereas very clearly in most of these passages would anyone conclude that these other are either clinging to Jesus or he's clinging to them.

You use this passage to object to me pointing out that Jesus said to the thief: "Today you shall be with me in paradise." And then my tying this to Revelation when the lamb slain appears before the Father to open the scroll and many appear with him stating they "came out of great tribulation"; (connecting the "great tribulation" to the crucifixion).

All this because you claim the great tribulation happened with the destruction of Jerusalem. All seeming to me just to support your believe that this cosmos won't ever be destroyed.

The Righterzpen said:
So if he didn't ascend between Mary and Thomas and the same word "touch" is used in other Scripture which doesn't denote clinging to???

You still haven't reconciled these passages.

Yes, Jesus clearly states the GT is associated with the destruction of the temple in the olivet discourse.

There is no NT passage that links the GT as happening at the cross, as you seem to believe.

In regards to her clinging to Jesus, see commentaries I posted. I am in agreement with them.

The Righterzpen said:
Yes, because if the soul is a real thing, how can it go to a symbolic place? But you can't see that what you said doesn't make sense; can you?

That's not what I am asking you. You believe there is a literal alter up in the heavens?

The Righterzpen said:
Is Jezebel not held accountable for her own sin? What about king Ahab?

Yes they are. But your using classic "whataboutism". Jesus didn't charge Jezebel for all the righteous blood shed. He charged 1st century Jerusalem with that (Matthew 23).

The Righterzpen said:
So what you are saying is that being born again is not being "raised from the dead"? Scripture would disagree with that. There are two resurrections. The first is to be regenerated from spiritual death; the second is to be bodily raised.

Nope not saying that at all. As stated, Paul is clearly talking about the physical bodily resurrection and not being born again:

1 Corinthians 15:35 3But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable

The Righterzpen said:
Yet... this isn't a "sword comet in the sky"! It was a predictable event based on common sun and moon cycles.

No disagreement here.

The Righterzpen said:
Luke 23:45

I'm sorry, I should have clarified. You stated the signs in the heavens at Christ crucifixion were a fulfillment of OT passages. What OT scripture about the signs in the heavens does the NT quote as a fulfillment of this at Christ's crucifixion?

The Righterzpen said:
You can't tell me that the goal of comparing Scripture with Scripture is to make it all jive together? I'm suppose to "work out" my own salvation as to whether or not Scripture jives together? My interpretation is jiving better than yours.

IMHO, The goal of scripture is to "jive" all of the OT and all apocalyptic NT language to the words of Christ and the apostles.

The words of Christ and the apostles are the revelation of the mysteries of God.

I can't tell you who is right or wrong when it comes to eschatology, as you won't believe me any ways. It's up to you to test the scriptures.

The Righterzpen said:
Yet if you don't believe the cosmos will be destroyed, then when is the end of time?

I don't know. that is an unrevealed secret to God.

The Righterzpen said:
Your eschatological system doesn't make sense and doesn't line up with Scripture even though you vehemently disagree with me.

I could say the same generic thing about your position, so how so explicitly? Which part doesn't line up?

The Righterzpen said:
You haven't convinced me; I'm not going to convince you, so what's the point of this conversation? What are you seeking to accomplish in this?

When I was a futurist, single convos like our didn't convince me of preterism, but they sure did plant the seed for me to continue digging.

claninja · Oct 2, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
The crucifixion ended the need for sacrifices and nothing but thorns and thistles sprung up on their alters. And all this happened in the life time of the people Jesus was talking to.

So then you agree that hosea 10:8b (mountains falling on us) was fulfilled in the 1st century?

The Righterzpen said:
Yet, what you think Jesus is connecting Hosea to and what I think Jesus is connecting Hosea to are two different events.

What event are you connecting it to if its different than mine?

The Righterzpen said:
There's no parable (that I'm seeing at least) about a net in Matthew 13.

Yes there is:

The Parable of the Net (matthew 13:47-50)
47Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away. 49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Righterzpen said:
Because the symbolic dreams visions and riddles had literal fulfillment in Christ.

Agreed.

But there is a difference in language between how God spoke to Moses, and the prophets as clearly stated in numbers 12.

The Righterzpen said:
Much of the symbolic / vision language is giving you a pictorial representation of something happening in a realm that you don't see. But just because you don't see it with physical eyes; doesn't mean it isn't real.

What scripture teaches this?

The Righterzpen said:
You disagree with what? That the literal cosmos will be destroyed or that the literal cosmos has been destroyed?

I disagree that the world ending language use in scripture is in regards to the literal cosmos.

The Righterzpen said:
So... what is yet to be fulfilled? If you don't believe the literal cosmos will be destroyed; where is your Scriptural evidence to back up what you believe?

Obviously you or I are not in resurrected bodies, nor have we stood before the judgment seat of Christ.

The Righterzpen said:
Nice back track here!

You agree they believe in a destruction of the cosmos. Yet the only thing you've proven with what you've posted about what they said; is that "Jews believe X...." This is not a confirmation that they agree with the Jews.

Nice straw man argument, but that's not what I said at all.

The Righterzpen said:
Yes, I believe the New Jerusalem is / will be a literal place. How it is described to us now is in symbolic terms of a realm we currently can't see.

I disagree. when using scripture to interpret scripture, it can easily be seen that the NJ is the body of Christ under the new covenant.

The Righterzpen said:
And almost as vehemently as you are confirming your own!

So again I ask you; seeing how I'm not convinced by what you've said that you have a proper interpretation of Scripture and it doesn't seem to me that I would convince you that I have a proper interpretation of Scripture - so what's the point of this conversation to you?

I'm not so proud to say you haven 't convinced me of anything. I find your views interesting and feel I have learned from you. I have been enjoying our conversations.

I've learned to become less dogmatic over the years about personal interpretations, and things that scripture doesn't actually say.

Timtofly · Oct 2, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
If the atonement was actually completed before creation began; then what does THAT actually mean in the context of time? We have a "happened already" and "not yet" at the same time.

Can you wrap your brain around that one?

What if science fiction was actually truth, and science we teach our children is actually fiction created by numbers, and not reality?

Eternity is not time. Nothing changes. Since nothing changes there is no passage of time. Going in and out of creation from eternity God just picks a time and is there. It is like opening a book any where and immediately being in that part of creation. Or choosing the exact place of a song on a cd. Creation is just 3 dimensions bound together by time. To us time just passes. To God it is a frame or reference of reality. Jesus had to be born, but after His resurrection and ascension. Being God appearing any where in time is not a problem when going in and out of eternity.

But even God the Father is just a physical spirit in and out of Creation. What GOD is in eternity may not be knowledgeable until after death of this limited physical body. God just relates to His creation in 3 forms: body, soul and spirit. But even these 3 forms may not fully represent GOD, but is all we are allowed to know, even in the NHNE. Notice the heavens are not even eternity, because even heaven is recreated.

If this is just one creation out of millions of creations that God has created, could be the literal meaning of in eternity there are many creations. In my Father's house are many mansions is just symbolic of many creations in eternity.

The Righterzpen · Oct 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
What if science fiction was actually truth, and science we teach our children is actually fiction created by numbers, and not reality?

Or more accurately defined by the parameters put around the current universe. Absolutes that we do understand; like 2+2=4 and gravitational fields pull smaller masses toward larger masses are not fiction. They are constants where we understand how to do things (like erect multistory buildings) based on understanding of the laws of physics. We actually count on those constants for our very survival.

But yes; who knows what types of "laws" (if any) govern the new creation? We don't even understand all of what governs this one. "Warp speed" is theoretically possible. Yet in terms of how material mass interacts with the established laws; not at all possible. Light can travel "light speed" because it has no mass. What else can we "see" in this material universe that has no mass? (Well that question can get complicated for sure!)

So yeah, on the other side we'll know whether or not the "possibilities are endless" (or at least so from our perspective).

Timtofly said:
What GOD is in eternity may not be knowledgeable until after death of this limited physical body.

And even after, I'm sure there will be things we won't "know" totally. I don't think created entities are capable of actually experiencing what it's like to be God. I think that will always be beyond us; as far as we never will be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, or are we from everlasting to everlasting in terms of "immortal".

Interestingly though, I know "part" of the reason Jesus didn't sin was because he had a Divine nature. In the NHNE we are incorruptible. I wonder if that ultimate transformation (to be incorruptible) has to do with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost; and how that impacts the resurrected body?

Timtofly said:
Notice the heavens are not even eternity, because even heaven is recreated.

Yes, good point.

I don't know as far as "heaven" (meaning that place of being in the presence of God unshackled from this current course of earthly things) needing to be "recreated"; because where God dwells is no corruption. Which jives with your example of Eternity stepping into "time".

I also see that as sort of like a parallel universe; in similar way as you describe. An alternate existence that can't be bridged by flesh and blood yet very much is a "real place". Thus the need for a bodily resurrection.

So in God's realm, it makes me wonder if some sort of prequel / "prototype" of the NHNE doesn't already exist in this current time? That would make practical sense seeing how there are those who've already been raised bodily.

Timtofly said:
If this is just one creation out of millions of creations that God has created, could be the literal meaning of in eternity there are many creations. In my Father's house are many mansions is just symbolic of many creations in eternity.

Well if you're talking about different types of life on other planets; (as opposed to "multiple universe string theory"; then yeah, that's possible. God though being the kind of entity that He is; I don't think has to "experiment" making several types of universes until He "gets it right". LOL - which is the premise behind multi-universe "string theory". But that's what one gets when they start with the assumption of origins being run by chaos. The system flat out just doesn't work.

Yet it is possible that God in His own desire could design His own version of multi-universe string theory. And for all we know; that may be a reality right now. Could He have created "universes" that haven't "fallen"? I suppose that's possible; seeing how obviously He's capable of infusing Himself into this one.

We just don't know; but intriguing to contemplate none the less!

:swoon:

The Righterzpen · Oct 3, 2020

claninja said:
This does not address John 20:17, and Jesus Himself stating he had NOT YET ascended.

Is it really that it doesn't address it; or that you just don't understand it?

claninja said:
Yes, the same way God stated to Moses in the present tense "I AM the God of Abraham...." as proof of the resurrection of the dead, which was future.

Yet if Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; He'd already been raised; even in Moses's time.

There's another passage about Satan contesting with Michael about the body of Moses. Scripture says God "buried" Moses. Scripture also says Elijah was taken into heaven in a chariot. They both appear on the Mt. of Transfiguration in physical form, prior to the resurrection. Well the only way God can "legitimately" do that, is if Jesus is the lamb slain before time ever began.

@Timtofly describes God's actions of eternity interacting with time as God stepping in a book. Which makes sense because God is outside of time. Your wife is not "omnipresent" in that she certainly doesn't have the ability to "having already accomplished" what she intends to do in the future.

God is not confined by those types of limitations. This is why Jesus speaks of "ascending" (present and perfect tense) while he's standing there in front of Mary. And that's why I asked you if you could wrap your brain around that one. God is not confined to linear time.

claninja said:
Yes, Jesus clearly states the GT is associated with the destruction of the temple in the olivet discourse.

claninja said:
There is no NT passage that links the GT as happening at the cross, as you seem to believe.

And "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon won't give her light".

You say there was a lunar eclipse in 68 AD; yet at the crucifixion you clearly have Scripture that says the sun is darkened beginning at noon and lasting till 3 PM. (Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33)

Passover falls on a full moon because the beginning of the month (which commences with the new moon) falls 14 days prior. Because the moon's orbit around the earth, is not on the same plane as the earth's orbit around the sun, you never have a solar eclipse on a full moon. The positions of the bodies in space makes that impossible.

Yet here in 33 AD you have the sun being darkened for 3 hours during the crucifixion.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture; where else do we find the sun is darkened? We see that in Isaiah 13:10 and Joel 13:15.

Now of historical records.

1. We have a 2nd century Christian apologist (Tertullian) stating that the Romans had actually recorded a darkening of the sun that correlated with the crucifixion. Yet what Roman records he is referring to; no one knows because researchers today are looking for correlating solar eclipses. Tertullian stated quite emphatically that this was NOT an eclipse.

2. Now the Chinese also record (in the timeframe of the crucifixion) what they called a "double eclipse" (both sun and moon) in one day. So taking into account the time zone difference; the Chinese astronomers record this as happening between 5PM and 8PM. And because the Chinese were much more diligent at recording astronomical events; they noted quite clearly that this was not a typical eclipse. (Again, based on position of planetary bodies; it's not possible to have the sun and moon eclipse each other in the same day.) Yet the Chinese said that clearly this is what happened. They also said some other interesting things about a "king", "sin", "cleansing" and "death".

Now, people are a little mystified concerning the year this actually happened. Trying to reconcile calendars; (to known eclipses) they come up with 31 AD. Yet it's very clear from Scripture that the darkening of the sun at the crucifixion was NOT caused by an eclipse! It's impossible to have a solar eclipse on a full moon!

Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking

Scripture records this as well as secular historians. Yet on the contrary; there is no darkening of the sun and moon recorded by anyone related to the destruction of Jerusalem!

claninja said:
That's not what I am asking you. You believe there is a literal alter up in the heavens?

You agree souls are not symbolic; correct? So if souls are not symbolic they must go someplace when they are separated from the body; correct? So... where is that?

(So yes, there's has to be a "literal" alter in heaven, just as there has to be a "literal" Jerusalem in heaven.)

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it aint there!

John 3:12:
"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

(Seems to me you have this issue that Jesus is speaking of here.)

claninja said:
Yes they are. But your using classic "whataboutism". Jesus didn't charge Jezebel for all the righteous blood shed. He charged 1st century Jerusalem with that (Matthew 23).

So... how does that work? Ahab and Jezebel are held accountable for their sin; but yet.... 1st century Jerusalem is held accountable for their sin too?

HEY - (I just had an epiphany!) Maybe THAT'S symbolic! You ever think about that? Maybe, just maybe 1st century Jerusalem is SYMBOLICALLY held responsible for all the righteous blood shed; because they didn't have just the shadow of OT to try and figure out, they had God standing right in front of them. They had this dude in their presence who could heal the sick, feed the multitudes and raise the dead.

Did you ever consider that they knew EXACTLY who (and what) Jesus was? They knew he was the Messiah. They knew he was God incarnate. He says specifically of them that destruction comes upon them because they did not "recognize" their hour of visitation.

We know they knew who Jesus was because of what Nicodemus said. "We know you are sent from God because no man could do what you do if God was not with him."

Matthew 12:42
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Did the men of Ninevah rise in 70 AD after the destruction of Jerusalem?

(I believe @BABerean2 quoted you this one already too.)

claninja said:
I don't know. that is an unrevealed secret to God.

claninja said:
I could say the same generic thing about your position, so how so explicitly? Which part doesn't line up?

When I was a futurist, single convos like our didn't convince me of preterism, but they sure did plant the seed for me to continue digging.

Yet... you don't call yourself a "full Perterist"; correct?

So if you're not a full preterist then some sort of fulfillment of something has to still be in the future; correct?

Yet.... you don't know what that is; but you're convinced that both myself and @BABerean2 (as well as whom ever else has responded to you on this thread) are wrong.

The Righterzpen · Oct 3, 2020

claninja said:
Yes there is:

The Parable of the Net (matthew 13:47-50)
47Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away. 49So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

OK - my bad - I missed the passage!

So.... the passage right here tells you that in regards to fish, this is a parable.

Yet what the story conveys about the reality of judgement is not a parable. We know this because of the rest of Scripture. Scripture is very clear that there is a judgement coming and there is a day of reckoning for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE; not just 1st century Jerusalem!

I'm assuming you do agree that Judgement Day is coming? Correct? So, what context would that take place in if the current cosmos is never destroyed?

claninja said:
What scripture teaches this?

2 Corinthians 12:
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth.) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth.)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Note the language "...wether in the body or out of the body I can not tell; God knows". This is not conveyed as a "dream" or a "vision". So if this person is "in paradise" (which is in the 3rd heaven) obviously it has to be a real place.

Jesus tells the thief "Today, you will be with me in paradise".

Now the opening of the book of Revelation has the author "in the Spirit on the Lord's day...." He sees this vision of things in heaven. Like many other people throughout the OT and NT. They see "visions" of heaven; yet they don't assume (as you appear to) that heaven doesn't actually exist.

Which is what I doin't really understand about your objection to heaven, hell, new heavens and new earth being real literal places is all about?

claninja said:
Nice straw man argument, but that's not what I said at all.

LOL!

claninja said:
I know none of the men are full preterists, and do believe in a literal future heaven and earth recreation.

(Actually it is what you said!)

claninja said:
I disagree. when using scripture to interpret scripture, it can easily be seen that the NJ is the body of Christ under the new covenant.

@BABerean2 quoted this one to you already.

Revelation 21:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

You acknowledge that we are not currently living in a world where there is no sin and no death.

So how does the "body of Christ" under the new covenant "come down from heaven" AFTER the destruction of the first heavens and first earth?

claninja said:
I've learned to become less dogmatic over the years about personal interpretations, and things that scripture doesn't actually say.

Well, you'll have to work on that some more. You seem pretty unteachable to me and unwilling to consider even when other people quote you Scripture.

claninja said:
Nope not saying that at all. As stated, Paul is clearly talking about the physical bodily resurrection and not being born again:

1 Corinthians 15:35 3But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable

claninja said:
I'm sorry, I should have clarified. You stated the signs in the heavens at Christ crucifixion were a fulfillment of OT passages. What OT scripture about the signs in the heavens does the NT quote as a fulfillment of this at Christ's crucifixion?

claninja said:
IMHO, The goal of scripture is to "jive" all of the OT and all apocalyptic NT language to the words of Christ and the apostles.

The words of Christ and the apostles are the revelation of the mysteries of God.

I can't tell you who is right or wrong when it comes to eschatology, as you won't believe me any ways. It's up to you to test the scriptures.

claninja said:
So then you agree that hosea 10:8b (mountains falling on us) was fulfilled in the 1st century?

claninja said:
What event are you connecting it to if its different than mine?

claninja said:
I could say the same generic thing about your position, so how so explicitly? Which part doesn't line up?

You know what you remind me of here?

You remind me of the MSM pestering Trump: "Please state again that you condemn racism."

I've answered all these questions quite thoroughly and in multiple ways already.

So, do you really not understand? Be honest here. Is your continuing to ask the same questions over and over again REALLY a lack of intellectually grasping what I'm saying?

At least my autistic son with epilepsy says "Mom, I don't get it."

You to me; don't appear to suffer from cognitive disfunction though.

So..... what's the deal here? Are you thinking that with multitudes of asking the same questions over and over again; you'll either convince me you're right, or find some hole in my understanding of Scripture?

The Righterzpen · Oct 3, 2020

@BABerean2

Have you ever seen this? I have heard of / seen things about the Chinese recording astronomical events that have some correlation to the life of Christ; but I don't ever recall coming across that Chinese astronomers actually recorded the darkening of the sun and moon.

Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking

BABerean2 · Oct 3, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
@BABerean2

Have you ever seen this? I have heard of / seen things about the Chinese recording astronomical events that have some correlation to the life of Christ; but I don't ever recall coming across that Chinese astronomers actually recorded the darkening of the sun and moon.

Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking

I have never heard of this one.

Many Bible scholars now believe the events at Calvary happened during 30 AD. That would make it one generation (40 years) before 70 AD.

A friend of mine on this forum, "Christian Gedge", wrote an excellent little book on the Hebrew calendar.

It is titled "The Atonement Clock".

.

The Righterzpen · Oct 3, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I have never heard of this one.

Many Bible scholars now believe the events at Calvary happened during 30 AD. That would make it one generation (40 years) before 70 AD.

A friend of mine on this forum, "Christian Gedge", wrote an excellent little book on the Hebrew calendar.

It is titled "The Atonement Clock".

.

Well your friend's book sounds interesting.

If you're talking "one generation" (40 years) and clock it from when John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness from end of September of 29 AD (Which was - I calculated this out once - I came up with the feast of trumpets; counting backwards 3.5 years from Pentecost.)

Also of interesting note:

The Romans recorded a total solar eclipse that year and minted a coin the following year that had Tiberius "in eclipse" on one side and the temple in Jerusalem on the other.

This would have coincided with the end of Tiberius's 15th year. Which jives with Luke 3:1 "Now in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar...." The 15th year of Tiberius Caesar would have been 29 AD.

https://www.romaneclipse.com/post/2016/09/19/the-solar-eclipse-of-29-ad-and-john-the-baptist

Besides 33 AD would be the only year of possible candidates where the Passover fell from a Thursday into a Friday.

The Righterzpen · Oct 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The following is a story he did on the Federal Reserve system.
Anyone who wants to understand a true "conspiracy" should read the book by G. Edward Griffin, "The Creature from Jekyll Island", which documents the creation of the Federal Reserve. It is not "Federal", and there are no "reserves." It is one of the greatest pyramid schemes in the history of the world. The following scriptures reveal a dishonest money system.

Pro_16:11 A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Pro_20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.

I finally got the chance to watch the whole video about the FED. I hadn't thought about the scheme going back before the FED, but what it said about the Bank of England, as well as the colonial banking system is true. It just wasn't as "organized" as it is now. (It's absolutely a global cabal now. And with Russia and China trying to establish their own currency dominance. Eh..... it's an interesting time to say the least.)

The system, is actually spoken of back in the gospels. It was the same practices of the money changers in the temple.

BABerean2 · Oct 5, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
I finally got the chance to watch the whole video about the FED. I hadn't thought about the scheme going back before the FED, but what it said about the Bank of England, as well as the colonial banking system is true. It just wasn't as "organized" as it is now. (It's absolutely a global cabal now. And with Russia and China trying to establish their own currency dominance. Eh..... it's an interesting time to say the least.)

The system, is actually spoken of back in the gospels. It was the same practices of the money changers in the temple.

In the scripture below we find that God expects an honest money system, which the Federal Reserve System is not.

Lev_19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Deu_25:13 Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.

Pro_16:11 A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Pro_20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.

Mic_6:11 Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights?

The British attempted to retake the American colonies during 1812.
However, they failed. Andrew Jackson was the hero of that war.
Jackson was famous for his opposition to a national bank. He called the bankers a "den of vipers". He was correct.

We lost the battle between the United States and England in 1913, when the Rothschild bankers gained control of this nation's money supply.

They now run the country behind the scenes.
The president is only a figurehead.

.

The Righterzpen · Oct 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
We lost the battle between the United States and England in 1913, when the Rothschild bankers gained control of this nation's money supply.

And they were the ones who ran the Bank of England: (thus how they are all connected). I just looked it up. They "officially" took over the Bank of England in 1798. The first Roth began lending money to governmental institutions in Germania in the 1750's. Germany at that point though was still a bunch of little independent kingdoms. But since the Georges (1,2&3) came from Germany; I wonder what the connection between them and the Roth's is?

:scratch:

Same thing went on in France "post" French Revolution. Although I know it's stated that the French Revolution was started by the Roths. I'm fuzzy on the connections; but I know I've encountered that assertion.

The Masons that came in with Napoleon were a big part of that too. He encountered the Masons in Egypt. That's a whole other "head" of this monster.

claninja · Oct 8, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
Is it really that it doesn't address it; or that you just don't understand it?

Doesn't address it

The Righterzpen said:
Yet if Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; He'd already been raised; even in Moses's time.

There's another passage about Satan contesting with Michael about the body of Moses. Scripture says God "buried" Moses. Scripture also says Elijah was taken into heaven in a chariot. They both appear on the Mt. of Transfiguration in physical form, prior to the resurrection. Well the only way God can "legitimately" do that, is if Jesus is the lamb slain before time ever began.

I don't believe the passage in revelation literally means Jesus was literally crucified before the foundation of the world, I believe it refers to the same meaning as given by Peter:

1 peter 1:20-21 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

The Righterzpen said:
(So yes, there's has to be a "literal" alter in heaven, just as there has to be a "literal" Jerusalem in heaven.)

That's all I wanted to know. So you believe our souls go to sit under a literal alter in heaven until the 2nd coming. thanks for clarifying.

The Righterzpen said:
HEY - (I just had an epiphany!) Maybe THAT'S symbolic! You ever think about that? Maybe, just maybe 1st century Jerusalem is SYMBOLICALLY held responsible for all the righteous blood shed; because they didn't have just the shadow of OT to try and figure out, they had God standing right in front of them. They had this dude in their presence who could heal the sick, feed the multitudes and raise the dead.

Did you ever consider that they knew EXACTLY who (and what) Jesus was? They knew he was the Messiah. They knew he was God incarnate. He says specifically of them that destruction comes upon them because they did not "recognize" their hour of visitation.

This doesn't change the fact that Jesus charged them with all the righteous blood shed.

The Righterzpen said:
Yet... you don't call yourself a "full Perterist"; correct?

Correct.

The Righterzpen said:
Yet.... you don't know what that is; but you're convinced that both myself and @BABerean2 (as well as whom ever else has responded to you on this thread) are wrong.

I haven't stood before the judgment seat of Christ yet, have you?

I'm not currently in my new physically resurrected body, are you?

Those are still future.

claninja · Oct 8, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
And "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon won't give her light".

You say there was a lunar eclipse in 68 AD; yet at the crucifixion you clearly have Scripture that says the sun is darkened beginning at noon and lasting till 3 PM. (Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33)

Passover falls on a full moon because the beginning of the month (which commences with the new moon) falls 14 days prior. Because the moon's orbit around the earth, is not on the same plane as the earth's orbit around the sun, you never have a solar eclipse on a full moon. The positions of the bodies in space makes that impossible.

Yet here in 33 AD you have the sun being darkened for 3 hours during the crucifixion.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture; where else do we find the sun is darkened? We see that in Isaiah 13:10 and Joel 13:15.

Now of historical records.

1. We have a 2nd century Christian apologist (Tertullian) stating that the Romans had actually recorded a darkening of the sun that correlated with the crucifixion. Yet what Roman records he is referring to; no one knows because researchers today are looking for correlating solar eclipses. Tertullian stated quite emphatically that this was NOT an eclipse.

2. Now the Chinese also record (in the timeframe of the crucifixion) what they called a "double eclipse" (both sun and moon) in one day. So taking into account the time zone difference; the Chinese astronomers record this as happening between 5PM and 8PM. And because the Chinese were much more diligent at recording astronomical events; they noted quite clearly that this was not a typical eclipse. (Again, based on position of planetary bodies; it's not possible to have the sun and moon eclipse each other in the same day.) Yet the Chinese said that clearly this is what happened. They also said some other interesting things about a "king", "sin", "cleansing" and "death".

Now, people are a little mystified concerning the year this actually happened. Trying to reconcile calendars; (to known eclipses) they come up with 31 AD. Yet it's very clear from Scripture that the darkening of the sun at the crucifixion was NOT caused by an eclipse! It's impossible to have a solar eclipse on a full moon!

Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking

Scripture records this as well as secular historians. Yet on the contrary; there is no darkening of the sun and moon recorded by anyone related to the destruction of Jerusalem!

How did the sky go dark during Jesus' crucifixion in mid day? did the sun disappear or did clouds cover the sky?

claninja · Oct 8, 2020

The Righterzpen said:
OK - my bad - I missed the passage!

No worries.

The Righterzpen said:
OK - my bad - I missed the passage!

So.... the passage right here tells you that in regards to fish, this is a parable.

Yet what the story conveys about the reality of judgement is not a parable. We know this because of the rest of Scripture. Scripture is very clear that there is a judgement coming and there is a day of reckoning for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE; not just 1st century Jerusalem!

This doesn't answer my question. Was the parable of the net about literal fish be separated or was it about a greater spiritual truth?

The Righterzpen said:
(Actually it is what you said!)

What did I say?

The Righterzpen said:
@BABerean2 quoted this one to you already.

Revelation 21:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Right, this is symbolic and parabolic language. Why all the sudden is the part literal.

The Righterzpen said:
You acknowledge that we are not currently living in a world where there is no sin and no death.

I acknowledged that while I still sin while at the footstool. However, Christ has put away sin by his sacrifice, and his 2nd coming will not involve putting away sin again. I believe those who believe in Christ will never die.

The Righterzpen said:
Well, you'll have to work on that some more. You seem pretty unteachable to me and unwilling to consider even when other people quote you Scripture.

right back at ya.

The Righterzpen said:
You know what you remind me of here?

You remind me of the MSM pestering Trump: "Please state again that you condemn racism."

I've answered all these questions quite thoroughly and in multiple ways already.

So, do you really not understand? Be honest here. Is your continuing to ask the same questions over and over again REALLY a lack of intellectually grasping what I'm saying?

At least my autistic son with epilepsy says "Mom, I don't get it."

You to me; don't appear to suffer from cognitive disfunction though.

So..... what's the deal here? Are you thinking that with multitudes of asking the same questions over and over again; you'll either convince me you're right, or find some hole in my understanding of Scripture?

just asking clarifying questions. I don't always understand the point you are making and don't want to make assumptions leading to making a strawman argument against you.

The Righterzpen · Oct 11, 2020

claninja said:
Doesn't address it

How would you explain a passage that the structure of the Greek implies something both happened in the past and is happening in the present at the same time? (Being both "perfect" and "present" tense in the same sentence?)

My answer is that God is not confined to time as we understand it.

Yet you haven't answered that aspect of this. You only say that you don't believe that is what the passage is saying; but don't give a logical alternate explanation for it.

For example:

claninja said:
I don't believe the passage in revelation literally means Jesus was literally crucified before the foundation of the world, I believe it refers to the same meaning as given by Peter:

Then you give this answer:

claninja said:
1 peter 1:20-21 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Yet this verb "foreknown" (foreordained in KJV) is also in the perfect tense. But so is the passage in Revelation 13 that speaks of the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; (also perfect tense).

Also the word "known" in "foreknown" / "foreordained" is not the "known" that coveys a simple intellectual understanding of something. That word means to know fully. It's the same idiom used in Hebrew for a sexual relationship. "Adam knew Eve..." It's part of life lived experience.

Which again brings us back to the fact that God's "experience" / "understanding" of things is outside of time; as well as being inside of time.

Your answers don't address that aspect of God's existence.

And here is yet another example where your explanation of something falls short of reality:

claninja said:
That's all I wanted to know. So you believe our souls go to sit under a literal alter in heaven until the 2nd coming. thanks for clarifying.

What other explanation would you give for the fact that souls are real entities? How would the soul of a person (which has real existence) be under a symbolic alter?

Now is the alter language symbolic for a form of existence that can not be explained to a temporal being that exists in a material world, other than using a material world example? (Probably! - and this is why Jesus says "If I tell you earthy things and you don't believe; how are you going to believe if I tell you heavenly things?")

And again; your lack of either being able or willing to grasp this concept is illustrated in this statement:

claninja said:
This doesn't answer my question. Was the parable of the net about literal fish be separated or was it about a greater spiritual truth?

Which brings us to the next point:

claninja said:
What did I say?

I quoted you what you said. (And I quote it again.)

claninja said:
I know none of the men are full preterists, and do believe in a literal future heaven and earth recreation. But also believe in part we are in the NHNE as far as the gospel dispensation go and believe the earth shattering language of prophets do in part agree with the destruction of Jerusalem

So if you are not a full preterist; you are left to acknowledge that there is some future fulfillment of things spoken of is Scripture yet to come.

You have a problem though. You state that the language in Scripture that speaks of the NHNE is "symbolic" and was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So what Scripture passages discuss the events that are yet to be fulfilled?

claninja said:
This doesn't change the fact that Jesus charged them with all the righteous blood shed.

How do you reconcile this with all of humanity standing before judgement?

claninja said:
I haven't stood before the judgment seat of Christ yet, have you?

I'm not currently in my new physically resurrected body, are you?

Those are still future.

If one is atoned for by Christ's sacrifice; then yes, they have stood before the judgment seat of Christ.

So yes, I have stood before the judgement seat of Christ. This is why I am spared from the second death (to be cast into the Lake of Fire) because I'm part of the first resurrection. (The "last resurrection" (just as Jesus was the "last Adam") is the recreation of the physical body.

And this is why the heavens and earth are recreated; to accommodate the glory of God. This universe can not contain God's glory because it is a corrupted universe. This is why God told Moses that he could not see God's face and live. God's glorified presence in this current universe can do nothing but destroy it; because the fullness of what God is just won't "fit" into this context.

claninja said:
How did the sky go dark during Jesus' crucifixion in mid day? did the sun disappear or did clouds cover the sky?

Apparently the sun was undergoing some sort of preparation for destruction; for if Jesus failed the atonement (or quit it) that would have commenced the destruction of the cosmos. Seeing how if nothing is redeemed; what is the point of it continuing to exist?

This is why this one week time span was called "the great tribulation".

Now seeing how the Chinese recorded what they saw as some sort of eclipse; what would that have anything to do with clouds in Jerusalem? Cloud cover in Israel would not have obstructed what the Chinese saw of the sun.

So no, the darkening of the sun had nothing to do with clouds in the sky. And it also was not a lunar eclipse because of the position of the sun and moon in relation to the earth at that time of the month. (You can't have a solar eclipse on a full moon; it's impossible.)

claninja said:
Right, this is symbolic and parabolic language. Why all the sudden is the part literal.

How does symbolic and parabolic language jive with our literal existence? Do we somehow go from a literal material existence to a symbolic one? How would the NHNE not be literal and material if we are literal and material right now?

claninja said:
right back at ya.

Your assertion of what the passages mean, do not address the issues I've pointed out to you that your interpretations have. I see your error clearly. I've "learned" your error. You refuse to acknowledge your own error.

I believe you possess the intellection capacity to see it. You just refuse to admit it because of pride and not wanting to be proven wrong. Yet anyone who is intellectually honest sees your mistake; despite the fact that you won't acknowledge it.

claninja said:
just asking clarifying questions. I don't always understand the point you are making and don't want to make assumptions leading to making a strawman argument against you.

Yet at this point, I'm sure you can tell me quite clearly what I believe. So, are they really "clarifying questions" or something else?

Which again brings me to the question of what is the point of this conversation? Why are you engaging in it?

BABerean2 · Oct 11, 2020

European Doctors and Lawyers exposing the truth about COVID-19:

.

eclipsenow · Oct 12, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Can governments force you to be vaccinated?

Can they also force you to take a digital tattoo to prove you have been vaccinated?

The following is a debate between Robert Kennedy Jr., who is the son of JFKs brother, and attorney Alan Dershowitz, who recently defended the president against impeachment.

Deshowitz has said the government has a right to hold you down, and plunge a needle into your arm. He is one of the president's lawyers.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

.

Why do you care? If you continue to trust in the Lord - have you really lost your salvation because someone forced you to take some sort of chip? How does a bit of silicon on your body expunge the Holy Spirit from you? That seems offensive to the gospel to me - sacrilegious even. I mean how weak is our salvation if that can take it away? This is what happens when we read the sometimes unclear metaphors in Revelation over the very clear, very literal promises in the rest of the New Testament. Reading Revelation this way makes great golden passages like Romans 8 suddenly not true. You basically have to re-write them! Like Romans 8:37 etc.

"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Except for silicon chips - those things are just too powerful for God."

I mean, really? How literally are you going to read a metaphor?

Let's up the ante. What if they stick it in the back of your head? Can I buy my groceries with it then without going to hell? What if it's my left hand instead of my right hand - is God against right handedness only?

The gospel is about who owns you and runs your life - who you let be in the throne room of your heart. It's about who you love and trust in rather than something you're forced to wear!

So what's this mark of the beast stuff about then? According to Theologian and Historian Bishop Paul Barnett in his book "Apocalypse Now and Then", the "mark of the beast" was a tribute payment - probably like a little stone you carried in your right hand - to get into the Roman circus to see fellow Christians executed in the Roman 'games'. Satan inspired Caesar to have his Proconsul conduct some games in Asia Minor to celebrate Caesar. John gives no illusions about escape - some were to go into hiding, some would be executed. But if you deny Christ and join in the persecution of your fellow Christians - indeed, join the state in celebrating the hunting down and killing of Christians - then you also carry in you the 'mark of the beast.' It's symbolic for denying Christ. It's like they own you - like they can put their tribute on your forehead. (The number just represents the mark of man - made on 6th day, works 6 days, and repeated 3 times for emphasis.)

I no more fear some vaccine or computer chip as the 'mark' than I fear having some weird name scrawled across my own forehead by God in heaven! The very next chapter shows that in contrast to those who deny Christ and accept the 'mark' of the beast - God's people will be 'marked' on their foreheads. Really? In what language - Hebrew, English, Viking?

It's funny how futurists want to read some bits of Revelation as metaphor (about some whacky future tech John could never have imagined) but then don't read other bits literally (like us actually having weird writing on our foreheads in heaven.)

God gave John visions of what the next 2000 years would be like, and specifically what his immediate generation would be like, to show that the church would be no Theocratic Empire spreading across the globe as the disciples seemed to imagine it. Indeed, we were going to be hunted down and killed for Jesus. John then wrote these truths in the language and style his readers were familiar with - apocalyptic biblical metaphors. The bottom line is the mark of the beast is denying Christ - so while I don't worry about computer chips - I do pray that I won't deny my Lord - because I know my heart is deceitful and sometimes I'm a coward.

BABerean2 · Oct 12, 2020

eclipsenow said:
Why do you care? If you continue to trust in the Lord - have you really lost your salvation because someone forced you to take some sort of chip? How does a bit of silicon on your body expunge the Holy Spirit from you? That seems offensive to the gospel to me - sacrilegious even. I mean how weak is our salvation if that can take it away? This is what happens when we read the sometimes unclear metaphors in Revelation over the very clear, very literal promises in the rest of the New Testament. Reading Revelation this way makes great golden passages like Romans 8 suddenly not true. You basically have to re-write them! Like Romans 8:37 etc.

"37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Except for silicon chips - those things are just too powerful for God."

I mean, really? How literally are you going to read a metaphor?

Let's up the ante. What if they stick it in the back of your head? Can I buy my groceries with it then without going to hell? What if it's my left hand instead of my right hand - is God against right handedness only?

The gospel is about who owns you and runs your life - who you let be in the throne room of your heart. It's about who you love and trust in rather than something you're forced to wear!

So what's this mark of the beast stuff about then? According to Theologian and Historian Bishop Paul Barnett in his book "Apocalypse Now and Then", the "mark of the beast" was a tribute payment - probably like a little stone you carried in your right hand - to get into the Roman circus to see fellow Christians executed in the Roman 'games'. Satan inspired Caesar to have his Proconsul conduct some games in Asia Minor to celebrate Caesar. John gives no illusions about escape - some were to go into hiding, some would be executed. But if you deny Christ and join in the persecution of your fellow Christians - indeed, join the state in celebrating the hunting down and killing of Christians - then you also carry in you the 'mark of the beast.' It's symbolic for denying Christ. It's like they own you - like they can put their tribute on your forehead. (The number just represents the mark of man - made on 6th day, works 6 days, and repeated 3 times for emphasis.)

I no more fear some vaccine or computer chip as the 'mark' than I fear having some weird name scrawled across my own forehead by God in heaven! The very next chapter shows that in contrast to those who deny Christ and accept the 'mark' of the beast - God's people will be 'marked' on their foreheads. Really? In what language - Hebrew, English, Viking?

It's funny how futurists want to read some bits of Revelation as metaphor (about some whacky future tech John could never have imagined) but then don't read other bits literally (like us actually having weird writing on our foreheads in heaven.)

God gave John visions of what the next 2000 years would be like, and specifically what his immediate generation would be like, to show that the church would be no Theocratic Empire spreading across the globe as the disciples seemed to imagine it. Indeed, we were going to be hunted down and killed for Jesus. John then wrote these truths in the language and style his readers were familiar with - apocalyptic biblical metaphors. The bottom line is the mark of the beast is denying Christ - so while I don't worry about computer chips - I do pray that I won't deny my Lord - because I know my heart is deceitful and sometimes I'm a coward.

During the days of Daniel three Hebrew men were given a choice.

They could either bow down to the image when the music played, or face the consequences.

They refused to bow down. Do you think they made the wrong decision?

You may be faced with the same choice.

Therefore, you need to think about what you are going to do, instead of what I am going to do.

.

Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

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