Grapes in the Early Spring

Isilwen · Sep 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
It does affect you whether you realize it or not. It affects you in a way that you do not notice, bu it still affects you.

No, it really doesn't and I will keep saying it over and over again.

0.02%: This is the lowest level of intoxication with some measurable impact on the brain and body. You will feel relaxed, experience altered mood, feel a little warmer, and may make poor judgments.

From here: https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/

From my drinking one wine cooler it never even registered on the test. You can say that the test malfunctioned all you want, but that is because it doesn't fit your narrative. The above bullet point proves you wrong.

Also from that same website, which is an addiction website: When it comes to a “safe” level of drinking, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2015-2020 defines moderate drinking as up to 1 drink per day for women and up to 2 drinks per day for men.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
No, it really doesn't and I will keep saying it over and over again.

0.02%: This is the lowest level of intoxication with some measurable impact on the brain and body. You will feel relaxed, experience altered mood, feel a little warmer, and may make poor judgments.

From here: https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/

From my drinking one wine cooler it never even registered on the test. You can say that the test malfunctioned all you want, but that is because it doesn't fit your narrative. The above bullet point proves you wrong.

Also from that same website, which is an addiction website: When it comes to a “safe” level of drinking, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2015-2020 defines moderate drinking as up to 1 drink per day for women and up to 2 drinks per day for men.

However, a person’s BAC level is not only affected by how much alcohol is consumed but by other factors such as an individual’s weight, gender, pattern of drinking, and genetics.

So for you, there may not have been any influence, or change, but to tell this to others could be bad for them because they are different.

Isilwen · Sep 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So for you, there may not have been any influence, or change

Good, you finally admit that it is indeed possible to have one drink and not be influenced or have any change because of that one drink.

My job here in this thread is done!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
Good, you finally admit that it is indeed possible to have one drink and not be influenced or have any change because of that one drink.

My job here in this thread is done!

When we say influenced, we are talking about intoxication according to the government.

The government still says one is not sober if one has alcohol in their blood stream. One drink does affect a person’s reaction time even if it is unnoticeable by the individual. You have to hook yourself up with wires by medical scientists to measure your reaction time. It may seem slight to you, but half of a second reaction quicker could be all the difference between getting into an accident and saving a person’s life.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

HARK! said:
I've been studying logic for decades. This is logic 101. Can you refute my source? When refuting a reputable source; one must refute it with a more reputable source. For example: a doctor make a statement about an illness. This is a reputable source; but the AMA refutes his claim. The AMA would be considered a more reliable source; because their opinions reflect the knowledge of many doctors. However, "Argumentun ad Populum' and 'Argumentum ad Auctoritate' are also logical fallacies. Now let's not inject red herrings into this discussion. Can you back up your unsupported assertions?

I am not against evidence to support a conclusion. In fact, that is what I have been providing. I told you to research the truth for yourself but you disagreed by implying internet research is not trustworthy. If the internet is untrustworthy than how do you find out the truth to things?

I provided biblical evidence and a source to ancient methods of preserving grape juice. It is up to you to refute the verses that support the condemnation of strong drinks and the many sources that back up ancient preservation of grape juice.

Isilwen · Sep 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
When we say influenced, we are talking about intoxication according to the government.

The government still says one is not sober if one has alcohol in their blood stream. One drink does affect a person’s reaction time even if it is unnoticeable by the individual. You have to hook yourself up with wires by medical scientists to measure your reaction time. It may seem slight to you, but half of a second reaction quicker could be all the difference between getting into an accident and saving a person’s life.

And here I thought we were making progress.

I showed you, from an addiction site no less, that you need a level at .02% to show any measurable impact on the brain. So, that means that if you are less than .02% there is no real impact on the brain. There is no intoxication. After drinking one wine cooler, my level was 0.00% therefore I wasn't affected at all.

You argue back the other way and then I will argue my point and it will continue on and on unless one of us decides to stop. I will be that person. You think as you wish.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
And here I thought we were making progress.

I showed you, from an addiction site no less, that you need a level at .02% to show any measurable impact on the brain. So, that means that if you are less than .02% there is no real impact on the brain. There is no intoxication. After drinking one wine cooler, my level was 0.00% therefore I wasn't affected at all.

You argue back the other way and then I will argue my point and it will continue on and on unless one of us decides to stop. I will be that person. You think as you wish.

But it is the little drugs that opens Pandora’s box to the bigger ones. Would you drink 151? What if a friend suggested you to drink it and you did not know it could intoxicate you quickly? There are also wine coolers like Cisco wine coolers that are high in alcoholic content. What if you bought these without realizing they could intoxicate you badly? Therein lies the problem.

Even if your not influenced the wrong way, another believer who looks up to you could drink by your influence and not be so lucky as you. They could ruin their lives all because they thought they could handle it like you. This is what Paul means when he says do nothing to make your brother to stumble.

Isilwen · Sep 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
But it is the little drugs that opens Pandora’s box to the bigger ones. Would you drink 151? What if a friend suggested you to drink it and you did not know it could intoxicate you quickly? There are also wine coolers like Cisco wine coolers that are high in alcoholic content. What if you bought these without realizing they could intoxicate you badly? Therein lies the problem.

Even if your not influenced the wrong way, another believer who looks up to you could drink by your influence and not be so lucky as you. They could ruin their lives all because they thought they could handle it like you. This is what Paul means when he says do nothing to make your brother to stumble.

If you don't know anything about me know this, I believe in people making their own choices. While I would never drink 151 proof alcohol, if someone else chooses to because I drink a wine cooler once to twice a year, it is their choice to make.

God gives us a choice does He not? Follow Christ or go to hell. He doesn't force the choice on anyone. People are free to make their choices for good or for bad. Drinking in moderation and not getting drunk is a choice and it's not condemned by the Bible as the Bible says do not get drunk. There is a good way and a bad way. Obviously the bad way is to get drunk.

Remember, we have to work out our own salvation, that means personal responsibility. I am responsible for self. Someone else is responsible for themselves as you are responsible for yourself.

As I said, we will continue to go back and forth. I am choosing to exit the thread because we're in a circular argument and I despise those!

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

Isilwen said:
If you don't know anything about me know this, I believe in people making their own choices. While I would never drink 151 proof alcohol, if someone else chooses to because I drink a wine cooler once to twice a year, it is their choice to make.

God gives us a choice does He not? Follow Christ or go to hell. He doesn't force the choice on anyone. People are free to make their choices for good or for bad. Drinking in moderation and not getting drunk is a choice and it's not condemned by the Bible as the Bible says do not get drunk. There is a good way and a bad way. Obviously the bad way is to get drunk.

Remember, we have to work out our own salvation, that means personal responsibility. I am responsible for self. Someone else is responsible for themselves as you are responsible for yourself.

As I said, we will continue to go back and forth. I am choosing to exit the thread because we're in a circular argument and I despise those!

While a person is ultimately responsible for their own decisions, a person who leads another into temptation can also be guilty. This what Romans 14 is saying.

“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” (Romans 14:21).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

“What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting.” (Matthew 18:7) (NLT).

When we endorse drinking, we are tempting others to also drink and not everyone can handle such a destructive beverage.

a-lily-of-peace · Sep 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I used to believe Romans 14 dealt with strong alcoholic wine because the word “wine” is in there, but the context is dealing with wine as the Israelite knew it. This was a wine that was diluted with several parts of water and it was not like the wines of our day. While one has a liberty to drink Israelite wine (that is seriously watered down), I believe that the higher calling is to abstain from all forms of wine (except unfermented grape juice); Especially when we are commanded to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8 KJV). It takes time for believers to mature, and to answer the higher calling. But I believe that Christians are to pick up their cross daily and deny themselves more and more. Being a Christian is not about catering to our indulgences (even if we do have certain liberties).

You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial. (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NLT).

Your choosing to give up wine to not offend your wife is a good thing. Condemning the faith and fruits of every believer who drinks socially is, with one single stroke of judgment, calling into question the entire Protestant Reformation as it would cast Luther as “unChristian” by those standards. And even that wouldn’t mean much because none of the people who condemned Luther for everything else he did condemned him for that.

I do wish you well and I do hope you bear good fruit. I hope we all do. I don’t think you have a bad heart but I think your reasoning on this matter is flawed. Not because I see any issue with diluting wine with water (I think this is actually better and the amount of red wine compared to the size of the glass really makes it seem like this is intended) but because the point has been inconsistently applied and based more on cultural context than straightforward interpretation. If you decide this means I’m not Christian then at that point it becomes divisiveness and I pray God will show me what to do at the time.

I think that’s the main issue I have. If you say it’s good to mix wine with water, I agree. If it turns into reviling anyone who doesn’t do that, I can’t.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
Your choosing to give up wine to not offend your wife is a good thing. Condemning the faith and fruits of every believer who drinks socially is, with one single stroke of judgment, calling into question the entire Protestant Reformation as it would cast Luther as “unChristian” by those standards. And even that wouldn’t mean much because none of the people who condemned Luther for everything else he did condemned him for that.

I do wish you well and I do hope you bear good fruit. I hope we all do. I don’t think you have a bad heart but I think your reasoning on this matter is flawed. Not because I see any issue with diluting wine with water (I think this is actually better and the amount of red wine compared to the size of the glass really makes it seem like this is intended) but because the point has been inconsistently applied and based more on cultural context than straightforward interpretation. If you decide this means I’m not Christian then at that point it becomes divisiveness and I pray God will show me what to do at the time.

I think that’s the main issue I have. If you say it’s good to mix wine with water, I agree. If it turns into reviling anyone who doesn’t do that, I can’t.

I think the way is more narrow than people think. But I of course do leave room that I could be wrong and that there may be a liberty for believers to drink strong intoxicating wine by a very small percentage. I just do not get the impression that we have a liberty in Christ to drink strong intoxicating beverages from the many verses I have pieced together in Scripture. Most today have a bias towards alcohol and their decision really has nothing to do with what the Word says. They are drinking alcohol, and that's the end of it for them. I prefer to follow God and not my own passions or ways. For there is a way that seems right unto a man.

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I think the way is more narrow than people think. But I of course do leave room that I could be wrong and that there may be a liberty for believers to drink strong intoxicating wine by a very small percentage. I just do not get the impression that we have a liberty in Christ to drink strong intoxicating beverages from the many verses I have pieced together in Scripture. Most today have a bias towards alcohol and their decision really has nothing to do with what the Word says. They are drinking alcohol, and that's the end of it for them. I prefer to follow God and not my own passions or ways. For there is a way that seems right unto a man.

The problem is right there in the middle of this post. "the many verses I have pieced together in Scripture." While ignoring the verses others have posted which contradicts your absolute abstention stance.
Anybody can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by "piecing together" selective verses out-of-context.
See e.g. my post #244 this thread.

Mr. M · Oct 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I think the way is more narrow than people think. But I of course do leave room that I could be wrong and that there may be a liberty for believers to drink strong intoxicating wine by a very small percentage. I just do not get the impression that we have a liberty in Christ to drink strong intoxicating beverages from the many verses I have pieced together in Scripture. Most today have a bias towards alcohol and their decision really has nothing to do with what the Word says. They are drinking alcohol, and that's the end of it for them. I prefer to follow God and not my own passions or ways. For there is a way that seems right unto a man.

If I were someone on the fence with regard to my need for a Savior, the position you have held to on this thread would convince me to stay there. You choose to place stumbling blocks before people you do not know, and frustrate the Grace of God. The Narrow Way is not the narrow minded way.
I fully encourage you to share your beliefs with people you know, and more importantly know you, and trust you, for you may inspire them. If you want to minister this abstinence position publicly, there are recovery meetings daily in most every city attended by people who are literally in the fight of their lives for maintaining their sobriety, and could use your encouragement.
Why not minister at the point of greatest need? Isn't that what Christ did?

a-lily-of-peace · Oct 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I think the way is more narrow than people think. But I of course do leave room that I could be wrong and that there may be a liberty for believers to drink strong intoxicating wine by a very small percentage. I just do not get the impression that we have a liberty in Christ to drink strong intoxicating beverages from the many verses I have pieced together in Scripture. Most today have a bias towards alcohol and their decision really has nothing to do with what the Word says. They are drinking alcohol, and that's the end of it for them. I prefer to follow God and not my own passions or ways. For there is a way that seems right unto a man.

I think your bias is showed by the language you use. If the scripture says “wine” and I refer to a glass of wine as “wine” but you refer to the exact same glass of wine as either “intoxicating beverage” or “alcohol” it’s adding a layer of interpretation into the conversation.

To me, the scriptures say that the Apostles knew people would disagree about food and drink and advised not to eat flesh or drink wine which offends others or causes them to stumble, rather than not to eat flesh or drink wine at all.

We are all very blessed in so many ways. May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy and guide us all.

FredVB · Dec 26, 2020

There is the problem of confusing salvation with godliness. The way is narrow, it is through Christ, and what Christ has done, for us, to come to God in relationship and eternal bliss with God. God is still not willing that any perish, and the way is not made more narrow than that. It does not depend on godliness, but only works with faith that is with repentance. God works with the redeemed in Christ to bring them to needed change toward godliness and away from sin, but they won't perish. The design from God's will in the beginning shows godliness, which is in heaven, that we should want on earth. Not only is alcoholic wine not a part of this perfect way in godliness shown, the perfect design according to God's will does not include any contribution to suffering or death, so eating flesh is not a part of that either. But no one is losing salvation over it as no one is losing salvation over their drinking. No one should persist in what is revealed to be sin to them, God would have sin stop as soon as possible with us, but being repentant we have yet to come to that stop, as we should, with any sin revealed to us. We should grow in godliness with having us be more harmless and caring.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 26, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
I think your bias is showed by the language you use. If the scripture says “wine” and I refer to a glass of wine as “wine” but you refer to the exact same glass of wine as either “intoxicating beverage” or “alcohol” it’s adding a layer of interpretation into the conversation.

To me, the scriptures say that the Apostles knew people would disagree about food and drink and advised not to eat flesh or drink wine which offends others or causes them to stumble, rather than not to eat flesh or drink wine at all.

We are all very blessed in so many ways. May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy and guide us all.

I am not adding my own interpretational bias. Wine according to the dictionary is defined as either fermented or unfermented grape juice. Plus, the Scriptures teach us to be sober minded in many places. The moment a person takes their first alcoholic drink, they are less sober minded than they were before they drank. Of course many like their drink and so they will defend it over striving to obey God.

Isilwen · Dec 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The moment a person takes their first alcoholic drink, they are less sober minded than they were before they drank.

I remember this thread.

I was able to prove to you that the above isn't true for everyone. I am a person who is as sober minded after my first drink as I was before the first drink.

God has said not to get drunk or over indulge, he never gave a blanket ban on alcohol drinking. I am saying that as someone who has a glass of Verdi or a wine cooler once or twice a year.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 26, 2020

Isilwen said:
I remember this thread.

I was able to prove to you that the above isn't true for everyone. I am a person who is as sober minded after my first drink as I was before the first drink.

God has said not to get drunk or over indulge, he never gave a blanket ban on alcohol drinking. I am saying that as someone who has a glass of Verdi or a wine cooler once or twice a year.

You were drinking wine coolers which have a very low percentage of alcohol. Try drinking one glass of 151 and say that. The Bible warns against strong drink and wine (Which was fully fermented). It says wine bites like a serpent. So if folks like to potentially get bitten by serpents, then by all means.

“At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” (Proverbs 23:32).

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” (Proverbs 20:1).

We are also to avoid in having any appearance of evil, as well.

HARK! · Dec 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not adding my own interpretational bias. Wine according to the dictionary is defined as either fermented or unfermented grape juice. Plus, the Scriptures teach us to be sober minded in many places. The moment a person takes their first alcoholic drink, they are less sober minded than they were before they drank. Of course many like their drink and so they will defend it over striving to obey God.

Oh Brother!

Grapes start fermenting as soon as they are plucked from the vine. Unless one is ready to completely abstain from grapes like a Nazirite; he can count on consuming a little alcohol produced from grapes.

Will that save him? No; because when yeast comes in contact with sugars, we can anticipate that alcohol is being produced all around us. We are inhaling it.

So should he live in an atmospherically controlled bubble?

Will that save him from the Eeeeevil alcohol?

No.

Our own bodies naturally produce up to the equivalent of two drinks per day.

The Human Body Produces Alcohol Naturally and Continuously

It turns out that our temples are also microbreweries.

Grapes in the Early Spring

The wine was...

Fermented

Unfermented

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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