Are Demons Fallen Angels?

SeventyOne

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Have you ever studied and gained a good amount of knowledge on a matter, that insight connected all the dots for a solution?

Insight is suppose to eventually happen in the spiritual life if one is walking in the Spirit and is fortunate to have secured sound teachings.


And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more
and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
Phlpns 1:9​


One who is yet needing to learn more?... Who assumes he has all he needs to know? .. will assume an insight is only a mere opinion of another.

If all we think are "opinions?" There is no truth to share. All we can do is cut and paste from some source where we have not done our own thinking.

If the Spirit is filling ten people in a crowd of a thousand? Ten people will be able to understand and agree while the rest push it aside. Its hurts to watch take place. When it happens its called... "suffering for righteousness sake."

But? That's just my opinion.

In my question, I asked you if you had a source for your assertion that God intended to make female angels but then later changed His mind. If you are saying you came by it by studying, then cool, what are your sources? I gave you my source for my response. I don't think it's asking too much to expect the same.
 
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GenemZ

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This is not an orthodox view. What makes you think that Christ completely laid down his own Divinity?

The powers of enabling his humanity he laid down...

It was exactly what Satan was tempting Jesus to take back up when he said....


And the one tempting, having come to Him, said
"If You are Son of God, speak, that these stones
may become loaves of bread."


Why was that a temptation for Jesus?

Jesus HAD TO remain as a man in order to take the place of all men and die as our substitute on the Cross!

Satan wanted Jesus to get fed up and take back up his "rightful" powers of Deity and use them. Thus, disqualifying Jesus from ever dying in our place!

For only a perfect MAN could die in the place of all fallen men!

If He for a moment became God again? (which was his rightful place to be) He would not have been able to continue to the Cross as a man. For in all things he faced and overcame had to be as a man! For in doing so? He paved the way for all men to take up His faith that he authored as a man, and have us walk in the faith of Jesus, so we can also overcome the world as he had done.

A strong person can voluntarily perform as a weak man. But, a weak man can not volunteer to perform as a strong man. Jesus laid down his own life in God, so that he could save us as a man! As a man guided by the Father, and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Just like we now are supposed to walk if we are to ever please God!

grace and peace........
 
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GenemZ

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In my question, I asked you if you had a source for your assertion that God intended to make female angels but then later changed His mind.

If Adam got frustrated and hateful towards God while getting bored naming animals day after day? And, told God to go away and let him run things his own way?

Do you think for a moment God would have put Adam into a deep sleep to grant Adam the greatest blessing a man can have on earth? No!

well... The angels had a rebellion before their time for a female was to be given. Those who rebelled refused to repent. Thus, calling off all further blessings in their function on earth in the prehistoric creation... And, now requiring that God establish His courtroom and judgement... and, to follow, the appeal trial demanded by Satan. "Satan" means accusing attorney.

The very fact that angels were male and very capable of having sex to procreate reveals something about God's intention when designing angels. It was intended for blessing..... Satan turned it into a curse!
 
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SeventyOne

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If Adam got frustrated and hateful towards God while getting bored naming animals day after day? And, told God to go away and let him run things his own way?

Do you think for a moment God would have put Adam into a deep sleep to grant Adam the greatest blessing a man can have on earth? No!

well... The angels had a rebellion before their time for a female was to be given. Those who rebelled refused to repent. Thus, calling off all further blessings in their function on earth in the prehistoric creation... And, now requiring that God establish His courtroom and judgement... and, to follow, the appeal trial demanded by Satan. "Satan" means accusing attorney.

The very fact that angels were male and very capable of having sex to procreate reveals something about God's intention when designing angels. It was intended for blessing..... Satan turned it into a curse!

Ok. You're speculating and coming to a conclusion that seems reasonable to you. That's all I asked.
 
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Francis Drake

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Sorry, I did not say that. What I did say? During the Incarnation was revealed to us that the ability of the Lord God to make Himself function as a man was an ability He possesses. And? Because He was able to do that? He can do that any time He wishes.
As I have already stated twice before, Jesus's abilities on earth came from being filled with the Holy Spirit at his baptism.
The same spirit was in Abraham, Moses and Elijah.
Therefore, before creation He had this ability.
That is one gigantic leap of fantasy that has no bearing in scripture.
The ability of the man Jesus to operate in Holy Spirit power while on earth, has no bearing on the original creation of the heavens and the earth.

In his earthly life, it was the indwelling Holy Spirit that did the work, not Jesus using his divinity.
He did it that way to demonstrate that any ordinary man, filled with the same Holy Spirit, could do the same as he did.
If Jesus had used his own divinity to do those miracles, then the mortal men of the early church would never have been able to do the miracles they did.
And, in order for everything that was to be created can be related to and perceived by men? All that was created was through Him and created also for all men to know and relate to. Otherwise? God transcends human capacity to perceive.
Of course God completely transcends human capacity to perceive. He also transcends angelic capacity to perceive, but didn't have to become an angel in order to create angels did he.
So when all things were created through him, and for him, all that was created was limited to what can be comperhended and perceived by men... Men, whom He also created in His image!
The simple fact that God is invisible disproves that silly nonsense.
God was able to do what he did because he stands outside time and sees the end from the beginning.
Sorry if you saw me saying He created all things after the Incarnation. If I did? I would be dumb to even try to say that. Not what I said.
Your theology is a load of desperately convoluted nonsense.
 
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Francis Drake

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This is not an orthodox view. What makes you think that Christ completely laid down his own Divinity?
Orthodox, who makes the rules here, the Anglican Church?

I said Jesus laid down his own divine power and only operated from the power of the Holy Spirit that came on him at his baptism by John. There's no indication Jesus walked in power prior to that.
Interestingly, John was conducting a baptism of repentance, so why would Jesus have to repent?
I believe this was the Law of Moses baptism normally undergone when a man enters the priesthood.
 
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Francis Drake

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If Adam got frustrated and hateful towards God while getting bored naming animals day after day? And, told God to go away and let him run things his own way?

Do you think for a moment God would have put Adam into a deep sleep to grant Adam the greatest blessing a man can have on earth? No!
Implying that had Adam rebelled beforehand, God wouldn't have created Eve, is complete madness.
God sees the end from the beginning, and thus had already seen Adam choosing to rebel, long before he created him.
well... The angels had a rebellion before their time for a female was to be given. Those who rebelled refused to repent. Thus, calling off all further blessings in their function on earth in the prehistoric creation... And, now requiring that God establish His courtroom and judgement... and, to follow, the appeal trial demanded by Satan. "Satan" means accusing attorney.

The very fact that angels were male and very capable of having sex to procreate reveals something about God's intention when designing angels. It was intended for blessing..... Satan turned it into a curse!
God is male, by your reasoning, there must be a goddess somewhere!
You keep leaping to daft conclusions.
 
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GenemZ

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Implying that had Adam rebelled beforehand, God wouldn't have created Eve, is complete madness.

Explain your "opinion." Can you? You throw out declarations without any substance to back up what you say. Its an bad approach in a way to shut someone down while avoiding (and being unable) to have to debate using Scripture and reasoning.

God sees the end from the beginning, and thus had already seen Adam choosing to rebel, long before he created him.

And, God saw your reaction to what I said, knowing you would not be able to grasp it. But, He had me say it anyway.

God is male, by your reasoning, there must be a goddess somewhere!
You keep leaping to daft conclusions.

Yet we find goddesses mentioned in the Bible (concerning pagan worship). "Queen of Heaven" "Astarte" come to mind. Drag Queens pick up on that kind of perverted demon.

And, if you could understand the demonic "drag queen" realm, you would be able to see by what influence the alleged human drag queens came into being.

Everything has a reason. And, if you do not like the reason? "Everything has an opinion!" :angel:

Drag queens have been known to confess that they think they have a female spirit inside them. Maybe they genuinely think they do. For what they do is definitely demonic in nature.

In Christ.....
 
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Andrewn

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Orthodox, who makes the rules here, the Anglican Church?
I was thinking of the Council of Chalcedon.

I said Jesus laid down his own divine power and only operated from the power of the Holy Spirit that came on him at his baptism by John. There's no indication Jesus walked in power prior to that.
This is an argument from silence. Is there any positive support of this?

Interestingly, John was conducting a baptism of repentance, so why would Jesus have to repent? I believe this was the Law of Moses baptism normally undergone when a man enters the priesthood.
Interesting idea. Is it mentioned in the OT that priests were baptized? I don't doubt it as a possibility, though, bec baptism / tvilah was used in purification rituals in 2nd Temple Judaism.
 
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GenemZ

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As I have already stated twice before, Jesus's abilities on earth came from being filled with the Holy Spirit at his baptism.
The same spirit was in Abraham, Moses and Elijah.

That is one gigantic leap of fantasy that has no bearing in scripture.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Heb 13:8​

Read that?

Therefore... What He did in the Incarnation, by denying His humanity of His rightful powers of Deity? He can do that at any time He wills to.

That's including while all things were being created THROUGH him!

All things created, were created as to be relatable and understandable by humans. Because, created THROUGH Him as He made Himself to be as a man. It was done in God's mind before any creation became manifested.
 
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Francis Drake

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Explain your "opinion." Can you? You throw out declarations without any substance to back up what you say. Its an bad approach in a way to shut someone down while avoiding (and being unable) to have to debate using Scripture and reasoning.
You offered no scriptures to back your original statement, although I presume it was based on the creation story of Genesis. Unfortunately for you those scriptures clearly says nothing like remotely like your outlandish story.
You split my response in two, so here is the complete version. It explains itself and it still stands.
Implying that had Adam rebelled beforehand, God wouldn't have created Eve, is complete madness.
God sees the end from the beginning, and thus had already seen Adam choosing to rebel, long before he created him.

And, God saw your reaction to what I said, knowing you would not be able to grasp it. But, He had me say it anyway.
And you have the gall to criticise my response.............when God made me say it!!
Yet we find goddesses mentioned in the Bible (concerning pagan worship). "Queen of Heaven" "Astarte" come to mind. Drag Queens pick up on that kind of perverted demon.
This has nothing to do with what I said.
 
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GenemZ

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Implying that had Adam rebelled beforehand, God wouldn't have created Eve, is complete madness.
God sees the end from the beginning, and thus had already seen Adam choosing to rebel, long before he created him.


If that's the case (as far as how God evaluates) in your eyes?

Why would God create Lucifer and his angels?

You sound like there is an element of desperation in your trying to refute me. I take that to mean I am on a right track. :angel: its just emotional outbursts!
 
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Jonaitis

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I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.

If angels were perfect, then they wouldn't fall. Adam, for an example, didn't fall from perfection, he fell from a state of innocence. He was placed on a conditional footing where variables could altar his standing before God. He was innocent in regard to sin, but he sought for perfection in the promise by God in the garden. This perfect is promised to us believers - glorification.

Since we know little about the origins of angels and demons other than that God created them, it is best to leave the subject unanswered. We should not speak beyond what is written, because it becomes utter speculation that profits nothing but distraction from the aim of our learning.
 
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Francis Drake

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I was thinking of the Council of Chalcedon.
Sorry, I must have had another engagement that day.:oldthumbsup:
This is an argument from silence.
No more than the complete silence behind the idea that Jesus operated on earth from his own divine power!
Before challenging me further, maybe you need to present evidence to the contrary.
Is there any positive support of this?
Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism. Why would that be necessary if he was full of his own divine power. Shortly afterwards, he did what scripture states as his first miracle, turning water into wine at Cana.
If Jesus operated from his own divine power, why did he wait till after his baptism to do miracles.
Why is there no evidence of earlier miracles.
Why hadn't Jesus healed his earthly father Joseph, who is obviously dead by this time.

All arguments from silence yes, but extremely loud silences that demand an answer from the doubters.
But scripture isn't totally silent, but states categorically that Jesus cast demons out by the Spirit of God, therefore it wasn't by his own power.
Matt12v28But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

And finally, if Jesus had lived and moved and died through the power of his own divinity, he could not have stood in our place, could not be tempted as we are.

It was not God that died on the cross that day, but a man, representing all men, men who are mortal and not divine.

Additionally, in living as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit, Jesus demonstrated the path he wanted the disciples to take.
Interesting idea. Is it mentioned in the OT that priests were baptized? I don't doubt it as a possibility, though, bec baptism / tvilah was used in purification rituals in 2nd Temple Judaism.
The following is interesting although not quite your answer, but I have run out of time.
1Cor10v1For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. 2And all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were drinking from the spiritual rock accompanying them, and the rock was Christ.

I know that ritual washing was a requirement for entering the Levitical priesthood. I saw somewhere where it indicated that the Septuagint translation of the OT used the Grk Baptizo in that location. If you find it, please let me know.

Gotta go now.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.

We don't know when or how certain angels fell. The Bible simply doesn't talk about it, we don't have Satan's "origin story" as it were.

The earliest mention of fallen angels we have are actually in non-canonical 2nd Temple period Jewish works. The term 2nd Temple period refers to the time from the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple around 516 BC, and its destruction at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD. A lot of Jewish writings were composed during this time, and most of the works written in this time were never accepted as Scripture, either by Jews or later by Christians--but they are nevertheless helpful in our understanding of the sorts of ideas of the time.

It is in these works that we read stories of angels who rebel against God, for example a group of angels known as "the Watchers" are mentioned in the book of Enoch (which isn't a single book, but actually several books edited together), in which these angels end up abandoning their position, have intercourse with human women and who in turn give birth to a race of giants. This is how the book of Enoch attempts to expand upon a very brief and confusing passage in Genesis 6. It also mentions that these angels went on to teach humankind heavenly secrets and mysteries which man was forbidden to know.

Now, the point isn't that any of this is actually true--that there were angels that had sex with human women and gave birth to giants. That simply isn't how mainstream Judaism or Christianity understands the passage in Genesis 6. But what is important here is that this is the time when we start getting the idea of fallen angels.

A common fallen angel from the literature of this time is Samael ("Venom of God" in Hebrew), mentioned as one of the fallen watcher angels in Enoch, and in the Apocalypse of Baruch is a fallen angel who is responsible for placing the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden, which gets him banished by God, to take revenge he takes on the form of a serpent to tempt Eve to eat from the tree. Samael is the chief satan in the 2nd Temple period literature, I say "chief satan" because in Hebrew "satan" or rather shaytan simply means "accuser", and isn't always a single individual. The satans, or what we might call the devils (the word "devil" comes from a Greek translation of shaytan, it means "accuser"), aka the demons. Samael is, therefore, what we might call the common name for the devil in the 2nd Temple period.

By the time we get to the time of the New Testament this idea of fallen angels is already entrenched in popular Judaism, and so the New Testament never attempts to explain the existence of fallen angels/devils/demons (they are all the same thing), but rather assumes their existence. Because Christianity arose out of 2nd Temple period Judaism.

Judaism, after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD would, under the rabbis, come to reject the idea of fallen angels, and would largely ignore angels for the most part, and so the idea of the devil or of fallen angels isn't present in modern Judaism. But it is in Christianity.

So, the short answer is that yes, demons/devils are fallen angels. There is no definitive teaching in the Bible about when or how they fell, only that they did. Literature from the 2nd Temple period talks about fallen angels, and provides a number of stories about them, but none of them are authoritative and shouldn't be taken as authoritative.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Andrewn

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Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism. Why would that be necessary if he was full of his own divine power. Shortly afterwards, he did what scripture states as his first miracle, turning water into wine at Cana. If Jesus operated from his own divine power, why did he wait till after his baptism to do miracles. Why is there no evidence of earlier miracles. Why hadn't Jesus healed his earthly father Joseph, who is obviously dead by this time.
Your beliefs seem to be similar to those of Church of God (Seventh Day) and some other groups. Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit at his baptism but at his conception:

Luke 1:35 The angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

What are your views of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
 
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Francis Drake

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Your beliefs seem to be similar to those of Church of God (Seventh Day) and some other groups.
I know nothing about these people. I am just someone who loves the scriptures and constantly seeks God for wisdom.
I back every point I make from scripture, but other than to refute what I say, you present absolutely no scriptural evidence as to why.
Can you give me some evidence for your stance, and please don't quote Chalcedon or any other irrelevance.
Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit at his baptism but at his conception:
Luke 1:35 The angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Who is the angel addressing? Answer Mary!
Who does the word 'you' refer to? Answer Mary!
Did you read that before posting, because clearly it tells us that it is Mary that the Holy Spirit is coming upon, not Jesus!
Obviously Jesus is conceived of the Spirit and half his DNA must have come from the Spirit. But that's not the same as his temple being filled with the spirit.

This is where scripture states that the Holy Spirit came on Jesus, at the age of 30.-
Luke3v21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
How can you argue with the plain and direct sense of this verse? If you still disagree, please explain how and why.

Then in Luke4 we get this.
v1Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
If Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit at conception, the above is a completely redundant statement, unless of course it directly connects to what happened a few verses earlier at his Baptism, ie. he was filled at his baptism and not before.

After his confrontation and defeat of Satan, Jesus returns even more powerful.
14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.
Not merely full, but having defeated the wiles of Satan, full of power.
What are your views of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
Fairly orthodox, although I hate the word.

Overall, it seems to me you are just repeating your orthodox church view without examining it. You avoid replying to the detail points I make, whereas I have responded to all yours.
Nothing you have said demonstrates in the slightest that in his 3 year ministry, Jesus used the power of his own divinity to do miracles and healing.
 
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GenemZ

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I know nothing about these people. I am just someone who loves the scriptures and constantly seeks God for wisdom.
I back every point I make from scripture, but other than to refute what I say, you present absolutely no scriptural evidence as to why.


May I ask you? What are you using for your Scripture?
 
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GenemZ

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You offered no scriptures to back your original statement, although I presume it was based on the creation story of Genesis. Unfortunately for you those scriptures clearly says nothing like remotely like your outlandish story.


Sir? Would you like a couple of hours of teaching to cover what you requested? It would take that long to fully inform you of what you do not yet know.

In the mean while... From what we can read in English translations, we find that angels (when they have been materialized on earth) will have very similar aspects to their physiology as we humans do.

For example... materialized angels can eat human foods. Genesis 18:5-8

And, humans can eat the food of angels as well. Psalm 78:24-25

And, as far as appearance? They can fool you to think they are just another human being.

Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people
have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it."
Hebrews 13:2​

Angels are privy to a special means for transportation. From a fictional view, when people were beamed to a new location on Star Trek... they were just as much a physical being once reaching their designated location. Nothing is impossible with God.

Angels do travel by a means we can not have at this time. That does not make them to be immaterial when they have been materialized. Just as Jesus walked through a wall after he was resurrected and appeared to the disciples. Yet, He also ate bread with them, and even enjoyed some fish that Peter and the others had just caught.

Open your mind according to faith.

Now?

Will you say that what I said is all balderdash and poppycock, and dismiss it?
 
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