Are Demons Fallen Angels?

April_Rose

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2020
3,815
2,458
34
Ohio
✟23,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Engaged
I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.
 

Shamawh

Active Member
Sep 24, 2020
46
34
41
USA
✟15,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No fallen angels are "malakim" that are disobedient.

demons are the departed spirits of the nephillim.

It may seem not important however finding and understanding the Hebrew and Greek words will go a long way.

angels or angelos are called "malakim" in the "OT" this means messengers.

There are many classes of being YHWH created, Keribum, Seraphim, among others, there is not a ton of info explaing the differences but it is there, it takes a deep study to relaly uncover all the details...
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I've seen commentators speculate that fallen angels and demons are two different things. A fallen angel is one who rebelled against God. Whereas a demon is a fallen angel who rebelled against God and later forsook his angelic body in order to be a wandering spirit.

Commentary like that is perhaps useful but it's often fraught with risk. Language evolves. What a word means today is not necessarily what it might mean two centuries from now. Sacred Scripture was written over a period of thousand of years so it's quite possible that an Old Testament writer had something different in mind that a New Testament writer who uses the exact same word.

So when scholars analyze Sacred Scripture for clues about these matters, their research could be flawed because different writers intended different things even if they used the same word. The reason I'm harping on this point is because most scholars typically use only the Bible as their source rather than analyzing other writings from that same period to flesh out their understanding of words, definitions, etc.

That doesn't mean they're wrong in drawing a difference between fallen angels and demons. I'm just saying their methodology is usually sloppy, their conclusions are often fragmented and their work can be very incomplete.

tl;dr- Who knows?
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,509
7,068
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟961,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Are Demons Fallen Angels?
They do not appear to be. You best bet is to ask at a church that is active in deliverance ministry. Deliverance threads are prohibited here.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: April_Rose
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.
If you create a being with free will, there is always a risk that they will turn against you. If they do not have free will, then they become robots or puppets. That is no fun if you are a God of love.
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.
Angels are a creation like man, imperfect, with free will.

Therefore, angels can choose to reject or oppose God.
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,485
45,435
67
✟2,929,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,509
7,068
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟961,095.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why prohibited?
They closed the sub-forum over repeated arguments, particularly the debate over whether Christians can have a demon or not. (Whenever someone asks a question about the nature of demons, it isn't too long before the thread goes off in that direction.)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: April_Rose
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.
In J. R. R. Tolkien's novel The Silmarillion, there is a creation narrative depicted in the story Ainulindalë where the Creator essentially sings the fictional world into existence, after which he offers his "angels" (for want of a better word) the opportunity to participate in its history. Many accept, some don't.

I think there's a considerable amount of general truth to that. St. Augustine alludes to holding similar views of the creation and, in medieval Catholic history, this had become a widespread belief. Clearly, this irl history was some kind of influence on Tolkien when he wrote what is published in The Silmarillion.

Frankly, I find myself agreeing with virtually all of that.

I have heard Catholic theologians and scholars offer a more developed version of pre-Genesis 1 history. Specifically, God created the angels and then they watched the creation of the world (and the entire universe). And initially, God created the angels with free will. Crucially, throughout the process the angels did not see God's face. After the creation was essentially completed, God showed the angels the whole universe. Everything. No secret was withheld from them. He showed them the full marvel of His creation. Then He gave them the choice to serve the god who created everything they had just seen. As with Ainulindalë by Tolkien, most of the angels chose to serve God and some angels chose not to.

The angels who chose to serve God were then shown the Beatific Vision, the face of God. Once that happens, the viewer's will is bound to God's will forever. Disobedience is impossible after that because the Beatific Vision perfectly, completely and eternally aligns the servant to God. This is where our conception of free will ended for the angels. Their will became perfectly subject to God's will.

These same scholars speculate that the inverse is true as well. Rejecting the Beatific Vision eternally separates one from God. And this is where the fallen angels come in. Reconciliation isn't possible for them. None of them really want to repent anyway, even tho they know what's in store for them. But even if they wanted to, they still couldn't come back to God. They made their choice and it's permanent now. They also lack what we understand to be free will, except now they're perfectly alienated from God's will. No tradebacks.

I tend to find all of the above believable as well.

Why would God give them the choice? He gave Adam and Eve the choice to obey or disobey. Today, people have the choice to believe in Christ or to not believe. And the angels all faced their own choice as well. I venture that God prefers giving people a choice to have a relationship with Him or not to have one. He's willing but the choice is ours.
 
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
I think that the title question is pretty self-explanatory. Since Satan was an angel that rebelled against God are his other demons? What happened anyways? And why did God create angels (especially Satan the worst of them all) like them if He knew (which He obviously did) that they would turn against Him? Angels are supposed to be perfect like Jesus.

The Book of Enoch, chapter 15, tells us what the demons are. This is the Lord pronouncing judgment on the angels who fell and had children with women, as eluded to in Genesis 6.

Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; ⌈they shall be evil spirits on earth, and⌉ evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded ⌈from them⌉.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: yeshuasavedme
Upvote 0

April_Rose

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2020
3,815
2,458
34
Ohio
✟23,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Engaged
No fallen angels are "malakim" that are disobedient.

demons are the departed spirits of the nephillim.




Huh??



If you create a being with free will, there is always a risk that they will turn against you. If they do not have free will, then they become robots or puppets. That is no fun if you are a God of love.






I didn't realize that angels and demons worked in the same way that humans did.



In J. R. R. Tolkien's novel The Silmarillion, there is a creation narrative depicted in the story Ainulindalë where the Creator essentially sings the fictional world into existence, after which he offers his "angels" (for want of a better word) the opportunity to participate in its history. Many accept, some don't.

I think there's a considerable amount of general truth to that. St. Augustine alludes to holding similar views of the creation and, in medieval Catholic history, this had become a widespread belief. Clearly, this irl history was some kind of influence on Tolkien when he wrote what is published in The Silmarillion.

Frankly, I find myself agreeing with virtually all of that.

I have heard Catholic theologians and scholars offer a more developed version of pre-Genesis 1 history. Specifically, God created the angels and then they watched the creation of the world (and the entire universe). And initially, God created the angels with free will. Crucially, throughout the process the angels did not see God's face. After the creation was essentially completed, God showed the angels the whole universe. Everything. No secret was withheld from them. He showed them the full marvel of His creation. Then He gave them the choice to serve the god who created everything they had just seen. As with Ainulindalë by Tolkien, most of the angels chose to serve God and some angels chose not to.

The angels who chose to serve God were then shown the Beatific Vision, the face of God. Once that happens, the viewer's will is bound to God's will forever. Disobedience is impossible after that because the Beatific Vision perfectly, completely and eternally aligns the servant to God. This is where our conception of free will ended for the angels. Their will became perfectly subject to God's will.

These same scholars speculate that the inverse is true as well. Rejecting the Beatific Vision eternally separates one from God. And this is where the fallen angels come in. Reconciliation isn't possible for them. None of them really want to repent anyway, even tho they know what's in store for them. But even if they wanted to, they still couldn't come back to God. They made their choice and it's permanent now. They also lack what we understand to be free will, except now they're perfectly alienated from God's will. No tradebacks.

I tend to find all of the above believable as well.

Why would God give them the choice? He gave Adam and Eve the choice to obey or disobey. Today, people have the choice to believe in Christ or to not believe. And the angels all faced their own choice as well. I venture that God prefers giving people a choice to have a relationship with Him or not to have one. He's willing but the choice is ours.

The Book of Enoch, chapter 15, tells us what the demons are. This is the Lord pronouncing judgment on the angels who fell and had children with women, as eluded to in Genesis 6.

Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; ⌈they shall be evil spirits on earth, and⌉ evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded ⌈from them⌉.








Just so you guys know I am mentally challenged and this is far too complicated for me to read and understand. :confused:
 
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Just so you guys know I am mentally challenged and this is far too complicated for me to read and understand. :confused:

Ok. The gist of the passage I quoted from Enoch.

Angels mated with human women and had offspring, known as the Nephilim. The Lord declared when these offspring die, they become evil spirits bound here on the earth. They will afflict, attack, and rise up against us on earth during their time here. We call these spirits 'demons'.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: yeshuasavedme
Upvote 0

April_Rose

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2020
3,815
2,458
34
Ohio
✟23,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Engaged
Angels mated with human women and had offspring, known as the Nephilim.









Yeah,.. I've read through the whole entire Bible and I definitely missed this part. No offense to you or God or the Bible,.. but it sounds like some sort of a science fiction or something.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

venksta

Jesus is humanity's most successful rebel.
May 12, 2004
155
211
Kingdom of God
✟82,101.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yeah,.. I've read through the whole entire Bible and I definitely missed this part. No offense to you or God or the Bible,.. but it sounds like some sort of a science fiction or something.

The book of Enoch is not part of the canonical Bible. So, you actually won't find it in a physical copy of a Bible if you own one. If you'd like to read more about how and where it may fit in, you could try this wiki page:
Book of Enoch - Wikipedia
 
  • Informative
Reactions: April_Rose
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Yeah,.. I've read through the whole entire Bible and I definitely missed this part. No offense to you or God or the Bible,.. but it sounds like some sort of a science fiction or something.

I didn't write it, but this was the authoritative source for such things for many centuries. Other explanations are the newcomers and would be the 'science fiction' of that day.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

venksta

Jesus is humanity's most successful rebel.
May 12, 2004
155
211
Kingdom of God
✟82,101.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I thought that the term canon only referred to fantasy.

It's meaning is shared by other words as well.

Here are more definitions, if it helps to understand:
Definition of CANON

Just like with studying and reading the Bible on your own, if you decide to take a look at the book of Enoch, or others like it, pray to God first, and ask to be lead by the Holy Spirit. He is our teacher. :)
 
Upvote 0