LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

He is the way said:
Here is the clincher.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:28)

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Yes, seems even Jesus thought He would come back sooner. However, every one of them died, including John, he is just the only one that has not one but several tombs. And Jesus had this clincher----

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I'm sure He knows now, but He did not know then. In His humanity, He was not all knowing, only as His Father allowed. And we are not told if there were some saints that might have been translated when He was taken up. Never the less----translated means going to heaven without seeing death. If ayione is translated they go to heaven and do not come back and touch this earth---they are in visions and dreams only. If John was translated---he was not left on this earth but taken with Jesus.

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

Peter1000 said:
All people living at the time of Christ second coming will be changed in the twinkling of the eye. That change includes, death and resurrection instantly.

John is a translated being, which is different than a resurrected being. So John will also be changed in the twinkling of the eye. His change will be death and resurrection instantly.

That goes totally against what the scriptures say---and I already posted that!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We shall not all sleep---that means we shall not all die--but we will all be changed. That is what translation means--00never seeing death---just as Enoch and Elijah. Moses did see death, and then he was resurrected. TRANSLATION MEANS GOING TO HEAVEN WITHOUT SEEING DEATH!

Peter1000 · Sep 21, 2020

mmksparbud said:
When I started here, you guys did not believe that Jesus created everything! You certainly did not say that He created Lucifer---as that makes Jesus his creator, and therefore, certainly not His brother. You did not believe that He was from everlasting for you believed that He was the product of the Father and one of His wives. and definitely had a beginning as a spiritual child--not fully God. When did these changes occur?? Glad to hear there have been some. Or is this more of your word games? And He moist certainly created everything from nothiing--and please cut the baloney that it wasn't from nothing for He is something! He did not create Himself.

Did you read what an originalist Hebrew says about the word "bara" means that God created everything from nothing. So there are other people that have my same view.

How Jesus became Jesus, or whether Jesus is the brother or creator of satan is not as important as what Jesus did. He created everything, he saved us from our sins, he resurrected us from the dead. These are paramount, the rest is interesting but far less important than what he did.

So let us celebrate what we both believe about him.

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Did you read what an originalist Hebrew says about the word "bara" means that God created everything from nothing. So there are other people that have my same view.

How Jesus became Jesus, or whether Jesus is the brother or creator of satan is not as important as what Jesus did. He created everything, he saved us from our sins, he resurrected us from the dead. These are paramount, the rest is interesting but far less important than what he did.

So let us celebrate what we both believe about him.

There is absolutely nothing unimportant about who Jesus is. To deny anything of who He is means you do not know Him fully. He is not a created being. He is the Only Son of God, not one of His Sons. I will not celebrate a Jesus that is not the real Jesus!!!---Not ever!! It is all of Him--not some little part of Him that you people believe in. He is ever soooo much bigger than what your prophet says of Him.

Peter1000 · Sep 21, 2020

Dale said:
Peter: "Read your OT again and notice how many time stones are used by God to communicate something. Also each of those that enter into the Lord's presence will be given a white stone
with a new name on it.... (Revelations 2:17)
So stones have been used by the Lord in the past, and in the time of JS. A lot of people do not know this, so it can be confusing."

The white stones in Revelation aren't used for divination and they aren't relevant.

The only stones in the OT ever used for divination by God's people are the Urim and Thummin used by the High Priests. Those were only used to answer the simplest questions, like go to war or do not go to war, particularly at the time of the judges. They were never used for any task as complicated as translating a manuscript from one language to another.

Peter: "also read the OT and all the people (prophets, kings, priests, common men and women) that practiced plural marriage. The Lord allowed polygamy then, for the same reason he allowed JS and the church members to practice polygamy today. To grow a nation to the Lord, quickly."

You need to give the OT a more careful reading. God did not give Adam two wives. Noah did not have two wives, despite the need to repopulate the earth. When Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, he separated from his wife. As leader of the Israelites, he could easily have taken multiple wives but he did not. Moses did not remarry after separation from his first wife.

Isaac only had one wife. Jacob initially married two women only because he was tricked into marrying the wrong woman the first time.

Abraham's relationship to Hagar is more complicated. She was a servant who became a concubine as a result of Abraham's desire for a son, an heir. As a minister explained it to me, it was how it was done at the time but it was not God's plan. Several years after the birth of Ishmael to Hagar, God ordered Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away.

King David's desire to add Bathsheba to his collection of wives led to his greatest sin.

Solomon's multiple wives, including foreign ones, proved disastrous to the country. Marrying foreign princesses may have helped keep the peace but at the price of building pagan temples in Jerusalem, served by pagan priests. Many of Solomon's wives did not share Solomon's religion and letting them worship the same gods and goddesses they had grown up with was part of the deal.

Think again about polygamy.

Read this on plural marriage in the OT:
Plural marriage Scriptures in the OT

In order to say that you have to be completely ignorant of the OT 'mandate' for polygamy. This was not just a cultural man-made phenomena, it was a God-based doctrine.
Read every word of the following scriptures and it will prove to you that God was blessing this practice.
Gen. 16:3
Gen. 17:7-10
Gen. 28:10-16
These have to do with Abraham and Jacob. Read how the Lord is with them. Since they practiced polygamy, and the Lord was with them, it must mean that there was a mandate from the Lord to practice, otherwise the Lord would have mandated that they stop polygamy. He did not stop it so he mandated it was right at that time.

Duet. 21:15 Here the Lord even puts this statute into the Law of Moses as recorded in the bible how to deal with a problem associated with polygamy. Hence, how greater mandate can you have than that the Lord put regulations for polygamy in the statutes of the Law of Moses.

Exodus 21:10 Here the Lord says that if a man takes another wife, her food and raiment and wifely duties will not be diminished. Hence, how greater mandate can you have than that the Lord put regulations for polygamy in the statutes of the Law of Moses.

Judges 8:30 Here the hero (Gideon) of the Midianite war, a miraculous victory for Israel as God was with Gideon and his small army defeats the innumerable Midianites. What did Gideon do when he got home. Did he become their king, no, he stayed a humble commoner, but he married many wives and had a bunch of children. A hero of God, and a polygamous man? Must have got a mandate from God, don't you think?

1 Sam. 1:1-2 You have already seen this one, where one of the great prophets of the OT is born from a polygamous father and mother. Must have been a mandate from the Lord if a prophet of God came from it, don't you think?

1 Sam. 25:42-43 Now here is where David comes into the picture. Critics of Mormon polygamy always use David and Solomon as if they are the only 2 to practice polygamy and they were kings and did bad in the sight of God.But this is before David was king and he took 2 wives. And a more interesting question is: can we say that Jesus came from a polygamous family? Jesus came from the line of David, a polygamous man. Interesting mandate.

2 Sam. 12:7-9 David was given his wives by the Lord. A strong mandate, don't you think?

1 Chron. 4:5 Ashur was a commoner and had 2 wives.

1 Chron. 8:8 Shaharain was a commoner and had 2 wives.

2 Chron. 13 Abijah was a king of Judah. He slew Jeroboam, the king of Israel. The Lord was with Abijah, and he had 14 wives and the Lord blessed him. Mandate?

2 Chron. 22:11 Jehoiada was a priest of Judah.
2 Chron. 23:8 The Lord was with Jehoiada. Mandate?
2 Chron. 24:3 Jehoiada took 2 wives. So here you have a priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and we know God was with him that practiced polygamy. There could not be a stronger mandate from God.

So as you can see, prophets and kings and priests, and important men, heroes and common men had the right to practice plural marriage, and there were statutes in the Law of Moses to cover plural marriage situations.

What do you think?

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Read this on plural marriage in the OT:
Plural marriage Scriptures in the OT

In order to say that you have to be completely ignorant of the OT 'mandate' for polygamy. This was not just a cultural man-made phenomena, it was a God-based doctrine.
Read every word of the following scriptures and it will prove to you that God was blessing this practice.
Gen. 16:3
Gen. 17:7-10
Gen. 28:10-16
These have to do with Abraham and Jacob. Read how the Lord is with them. Since they practiced polygamy, and the Lord was with them, it must mean that there was a mandate from the Lord to practice, otherwise the Lord would have mandated that they stop polygamy. He did not stop it so he mandated it was right at that time.

Duet. 21:15 Here the Lord even puts this statute into the Law of Moses as recorded in the bible how to deal with a problem associated with polygamy. Hence, how greater mandate can you have than that the Lord put regulations for polygamy in the statutes of the Law of Moses.

Exodus 21:10 Here the Lord says that if a man takes another wife, her food and raiment and wifely duties will not be diminished. Hence, how greater mandate can you have than that the Lord put regulations for polygamy in the statutes of the Law of Moses.

Judges 8:30 Here the hero (Gideon) of the Midianite war, a miraculous victory for Israel as God was with Gideon and his small army defeats the innumerable Midianites. What did Gideon do when he got home. Did he become their king, no, he stayed a humble commoner, but he married many wives and had a bunch of children. A hero of God, and a polygamous man? Must have got a mandate from God, don't you think?

1 Sam. 1:1-2 You have already seen this one, where one of the great prophets of the OT is born from a polygamous father and mother. Must have been a mandate from the Lord if a prophet of God came from it, don't you think?

1 Sam. 25:42-43 Now here is where David comes into the picture. Critics of Mormon polygamy always use David and Solomon as if they are the only 2 to practice polygamy and they were kings and did bad in the sight of God.But this is before David was king and he took 2 wives. And a more interesting question is: can we say that Jesus came from a polygamous family? Jesus came from the line of David, a polygamous man. Interesting mandate.

2 Sam. 12:7-9 David was given his wives by the Lord. A strong mandate, don't you think?

1 Chron. 4:5 Ashur was a commoner and had 2 wives.

1 Chron. 8:8 Shaharain was a commoner and had 2 wives.

2 Chron. 13 Abijah was a king of Judah. He slew Jeroboam, the king of Israel. The Lord was with Abijah, and he had 14 wives and the Lord blessed him. Mandate?

2 Chron. 22:11 Jehoiada was a priest of Judah.
2 Chron. 23:8 The Lord was with Jehoiada. Mandate?
2 Chron. 24:3 Jehoiada took 2 wives. So here you have a priest of the Aaronic Priesthood and we know God was with him that practiced polygamy. There could not be a stronger mandate from God.

So as you can see, prophets and kings and priests, and important men, heroes and common men had the right to practice plural marriage, and there were statutes in the Law of Moses to cover plural marriage situations.

What do you think?

This was never an order, never a command from God, never a mandate!!
He created Adam and Eve---not Adam and Eve and Cathy and Heather and Sarah and.....It was man that created it---

Gen_4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

Lamach took. That was no mandate from God! To go from God allowed to God commanded is sheer rubbish!!

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

He never demanded this and even had Abraham sent Hagar away---divorced her. He was not happy with what Abraham and Sarah came up with and it is still war in the middle east over it and this has been gone over and over and the result is still the same---there have never been a command from God for this but He made provisions that they not be mistreated. It was over and done with with the diciples and very clearly mandated that there be only one wife. You guys just repeat and repeat the same erroneous statements.

Allowed is not the same as approved. Every one that had multiple wives in the OT had problems from it.

mandate
[ˈmanˌdāt]
NOUN

an official order or commission to do something.
"a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners"
synonyms:
instruction · directive · direction · decree · command · order · injunction · edict ·
[more]
the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.
"a sick leader living beyond his mandate"

Never a mandate from God except that there now be only one wife. JS did not get a mandate from God but from his own lustful little loins.

He is the way · Sep 21, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The best of your ability shows that you have no idea what He is doing!! And it all shows that none of this makes any sense whatsoever for you can not answer all the questions that this "translation" has brought up. And you can't answer them, because they make no sense to you either---not that you would ever admit that!!

Can you tell me where Elijah is, say within 1,000 miles, at this moment? If not how can you expect me to know exactly what John is doing?

He is the way · Sep 21, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Yes, seems even Jesus thought He would come back sooner. However, every one of them died, including John, he is just the only one that has not one but several tombs. And Jesus had this clincher----

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I'm sure He knows now, but He did not know then. In His humanity, He was not all knowing, only as His Father allowed. And we are not told if there were some saints that might have been translated when He was taken up. Never the less----translated means going to heaven without seeing death. If ayione is translated they go to heaven and do not come back and touch this earth---they are in visions and dreams only. If John was translated---he was not left on this earth but taken with Jesus.

It is interesting to me that you believe Jesus was wrong. I don't believe that Jesus was ever wrong about anything. How can anyone believe Him?

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

He is the way said:
Can you tell me where Elijah is, say within 1,000 miles, at this moment? If not how can you expect me to know exactly what John is doing?

He is not on this earth---He was translated---which means he went to heaven without ever seeing death. He was with Moses at the transifguration. Their feet did not touch this earth.
John is dead and buried. You guys are the ones that say he is not and is a priest on this earth yet can not say what he is doing as a priest when there is no temple and how can he have been translated, which means go to heaven without seeing death, yet never went to heaven but stayed on this erth, yet retained a translated body, which on this earth is not needed. You are the ones making the outlandish statements, then you are the ones that need to answer the questions that your statements end up producing.

mmksparbud · Sep 21, 2020

He is the way said:
It is interesting to me that you believe Jesus was wrong. I don't believe that Jesus was ever wrong about anything. How can anyone believe Him?

I said He,Himself, said that even He did not know the day nor the hour when He was coming back. As a human being, He was not all knowing and had only the knwledge that the Father wanted Him to have. I dol know that all His apostle ended up dead, with John being the only one that has several tombs, not just one. What He said makes sense only when you consider that He felt He was returning sooner than He actually would. I've always wondred about that one, but never have found a totally satisfactorfy answer ---certainly not yours about John, as that makes noi sense at all and ends up causing more questions. No reason to not trust Him over this one thing that has an answer, but I do not have it. However, I will ask Him, next time I see Him and let you know.

Leaf473 · Sep 22, 2020

He is the way said:
I have answered those questions already.

my apologies, I must have missed them.

in your answers, did you talk about whether or not John had been protecting the New testament documents all this time, especially the ones he wrote?

Leaf473 · Sep 22, 2020

hi Peter1000,
I know you wrote this to someone else, but I just wanted to jump in here, if I may

Peter1000 said:
How Jesus became Jesus, or whether Jesus is the brother or creator of satan is not as important as what Jesus did. He created everything, he saved us from our sins, he resurrected us from the dead. These are paramount, the rest is interesting but far less important than what he did.

the issue that most Christians are going to have with what you said comes from this kind of thinking

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or a different "good news", which you did not accept, you put up with that well enough.

and

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different "good news"; 7 and there isn't another "good news." Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Good News of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any "good news" other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. 9 As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any "good news" other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

now, I don't want to get all philosophical about what makes one Jesus the same or different from another.

but I think most people would agree that if two people are talking,
and one says that Jesus has always existed and is the only son of God,
and the other says there was a time when Jesus did not exist and is the brother of Satan,
well, most people would agree that that's two different "Jesuses".

that having been said, I have met at least one LDS missionary who I felt in my spirit had connected with the same Jesus I connect with.
my feeling, though, is that this is rare... there are just too many doctrines that tend to get in the way.

So let us celebrate what we both believe about him.

this is the issue, for me, that gets in the way of "co-celebrating" with LDS
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a burden on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

the burden that Peter was talking about is not LDS doctrine,
but, imo, the reasoning is the same,
it isn't good to add a burden to people.

that quote from earlier, "corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ",
leads me to believe that being in Christ is very simple,
and that it does not involve a long list of rules.

He is the way · Sep 22, 2020

mmksparbud said:
He is not on this earth---He was translated---which means he went to heaven without ever seeing death. He was with Moses at the transifguration. Their feet did not touch this earth.
John is dead and buried. You guys are the ones that say he is not and is a priest on this earth yet can not say what he is doing as a priest when there is no temple and how can he have been translated, which means go to heaven without seeing death, yet never went to heaven but stayed on this erth, yet retained a translated body, which on this earth is not needed. You are the ones making the outlandish statements, then you are the ones that need to answer the questions that your statements end up producing.

So is Elijah near Mars, Jupiter, or Venus? Perhaps heaven is in the milky way or beyond. You failed to answer my question so neither will I answer yours.

He is the way · Sep 22, 2020

Leaf473 said:
my apologies, I must have missed them.

in your answers, did you talk about whether or not John had been protecting the New testament documents all this time, especially the ones he wrote?

John is doing what God wants him to do.

Hrairoo · Sep 22, 2020

Ohhhh! I get it! So, in Mormon theology, in the premortal existence, it was already decided, before Adam and Eve were even created that Jesus Christ would come to Earth and die for our sins. The Atonement wasn't a response to Adam nd Eve's transgression but everybody was doing exactly what God wanted and planned. So, I guess what is happening here is that even if John could have protected the gospel of Christ, he didn't, because that was not what "God wanted him to do." Possibly, the Great Apostasy and Restoration was the real plan all along.

Leaf473 · Sep 22, 2020

He is the way said:
John is doing what God wants him to do.

yes, I agree that he is.

I think you can see what I'm getting at, though.
if John wrote some of the New testament documents,
and if he's been around here on Earth this whole time,
then it's even more unlikely that the New testament documents have been significantly altered.

Leaf473 · Sep 22, 2020

Hrairoo said:
Ohhhh! I get it! So, in Mormon theology, in the premortal existence, it was already decided, before Adam and Eve were even created that Jesus Christ would come to Earth and die for our sins. The Atonement wasn't a response to Adam nd Eve's transgression but everybody was doing exactly what God wanted and planned. So, I guess what is happening here is that even if John could have protected the gospel of Christ, he didn't, because that was not what "God wanted him to do." Possibly, the Great Apostasy and Restoration was the real plan all along.

I also find the idea very hard to swallow that God inspired the Bible, and then immediately after it was written wanted it to be corrupted.

similar story with the book of abraham,
assuming God inspired it,
very hard to swallow that no one references it until Joseph.

mmksparbud · Sep 22, 2020

He is the way said:
So is Elijah near Mars, Jupiter, or Venus? Perhaps heaven is in the milky way or beyond. You failed to answer my question so neither will I answer yours.

Elijah, Moses, Enoch and anyne else that has been translated are all with God, the Father and the Son in heaven. In the city that Jesus is building for us. I absolutely answered your question. No one knows exactly where the dwelling place of God is ---that is the immense 3rd heaven. It is where the New Jerusalem is and has the river and Tree of life. The heavenly temple from which Moses received his pattern for the earthly sanctuary is there also. The New Jerusalem in heaven is, according to the bible's measurements, about the size of the state of Colordao. So obviously, it is hurge. And all those things (except the temple) will be brought down to an remade earth for here is where the bible says God and the Son will dwell will all of us.
I fully comoprehend the fact you have no idea where a translsated being who by definition means he sould be in heaven with the rest of his buddies, is. He is totally out of place in this world with a body that belongs only in heaven, and is not allowed in heaven where his body does belong. Which must make Jesus very sad as John was called the Beloved. And John must be pretty lonely being the only one of his kind down here. We know where our translated beings are---where they belong, in heaven. Exactly where in that vast realm, we don't know. It is a pretty sure bet---they are hanging close to Jesus. And if John had been translated---that is exactly where he'd be too, following Jesus as he, and the rest of the translated, ussually did before they were translated. But maybe, John, gets to go to Kolob on vacation?

Dale · Sep 22, 2020

He is the way said:
Did you not see a Deseret Industries store and know that it had a cash flow? Just because a person doesn't know about something does not mean it is a deception. The Deseret Industries has been around since 1938.

Yes, the Mormon Church does own a lot a land and not just land that their churches or meeting houses are on. I grew up in Melbourne, FL, and there was a large ranch west of town called The Mormon Ranch. A few years ago the LDS church was listed as one of the largest land owners in Florida. In the last year or two I've heard that one of their land acquisitions in Volusia County, which includes Daytona, is controversial among environmentalists.

Mormons are a very small percentage of the population in Florida, so it's difficult to see why so much land should be owned by such a small sect.

I do have a question. Years ago I was told that the LDS church never borrows money to build a church. They don't acquire the land or start building until they have the money in the bank to pay for it. Is this true?

Dale · Sep 22, 2020

He is the way said:
Did you not see a Deseret Industries store and know that it had a cash flow? Just because a person doesn't know about something does not mean it is a deception. The Deseret Industries has been around since 1938.

Here's a thought. In the Book of Joshua, the Levites were given no agricultural land, although they were allowed some pastureland. The priests did not need agricultural land since they weren't going to farm. Their portion was "priestly service." This does lend support to paid ministers.

It also casts doubt on whether the church should own income producing property. If the OT Levite priests did not own or manage agricultural land, and the LDS church is run by priests, then it follows that the church should not own income producing land.

The Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in, with pasturelands for their flocks and herds. 5 So the Israelites divided the land, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Joshua 14:4-5 NIV

5 You are to divide the land into seven parts. Judah is to remain in its territory on the south and the tribes of Joseph in their territory on the north. 6 After you have written descriptions of the seven parts of the land, bring them here to me and I will cast lots for you in the presence of the Lord our God. 7 The Levites, however, do not get a portion among you, because the priestly service of the Lord is their inheritance. And Gad, Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh have already received their inheritance on the east side of the Jordan. Moses the servant of the Lord gave it to them.”
Joshua 18: 5-7 NIV

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