LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[He is the way]

Hey, everyone else in this thread: How many malls has your church opened?

Zero?

How much food does your church produce for the hungry?

LDS church donates 19 tons of food to Interfaith.

LDS Charities Food Production and Nutrition Program

Millions of pounds of supplies produced by LDS Church farms, facilities

 

[BigDaddy4]

Hey, everyone else in this thread: How many malls has your church opened?

Zero?

Seriously! How does owning a mall further their [false] gospel? Free BOM with every purchase?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Members can find out where their tithing money is spent. We do not have access to all of the financial records of the church.

You didn't answer the question - where did your church get the money to make these investments in the first place?

If you don't have access to all of the financial records of your church, does that not send up a huge red flag to you? But then you trust your prophet(s) to the very end, even when they are wrong, so maybe it doesn't concern you.

 

[He is the way]

Seriously! How does owning a mall further their [false] gospel? Free BOM with every purchase?

Unemployment and Employment

 

[BigDaddy4]

How much food does your church produce for the hungry?

LDS church donates 19 tons of food to Interfaith.

LDS Charities Food Production and Nutrition Program

Millions of pounds of supplies produced by LDS Church farms, facilities

How much money is your church hiding from you?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Unemployment and Employment

Shocking! Another post that does not address the question asked.

 

[He is the way]

You didn't answer the question - where did your church get the money to make these investments in the first place?

If you don't have access to all of the financial records of your church, does that not send up a huge red flag to you? But then you trust your prophet(s) to the very end, even when they are wrong, so maybe it doesn't concern you.

The fruits of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are pretty obvious.

Millions of pounds of supplies produced by LDS Church farms, facilities

 

[Hrairoo]

People are quick to mention the City Creek mall but fail to mention the billions spent on humanitarian aid or the extensive welfare programs of the church.

LDS Charities: How Church Donations are Used

I will be upfront and say that I don't know much about the mall nor the current financial status of the church other than what I've already posted. Currently, I'm still researching church history from 1820-1890.

I will say that 1. As a member I was always taught and it was a point of pride to tell others that our men were men of God because the leaders were never paid. To my shock, I learn that the prophet and apostles actually are paid. Whether they are paid from tithing or not is irrelevant. Just add it to the pile of deceptions. 2. I was never told about the mall. I had to learn about it after I left. Neither did I know that the church had cash flow other than tithing. SO, I guess just add that to the pile of deceptions as well.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The fruits of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are pretty obvious.

Millions of pounds of supplies produced by LDS Church farms, facilities

Good deeds will not get you into heaven. But once again, you avoid answering not just one, but now two direct questions. Just following the old Mormon Missionary playbook, eh?

 

[He is the way]

I will be upfront and say that I don't know much about the mall nor the current financial status of the church other than what I've already posted. Currently, I'm still researching church history from 1820-1890.

I will say that 1. As a member I was always taught and it was a point of pride to tell others that our men were men of God because the leaders were never paid. To my shock, I learn that the prophet and apostles actually are paid. Whether they are paid from tithing or not is irrelevant. Just add it to the pile of deceptions. 2. I was never told about the mall. I had to learn about it after I left. Neither did I know that the church had cash flow other than tithing. SO, I guess just add that to the pile of deceptions as well.

Did you not see a Deseret Industries store and know that it had a cash flow? Just because a person doesn't know about something does not mean it is a deception. The Deseret Industries has been around since 1938.

 

[He is the way]

Good deeds will not get you into heaven. But once again, you avoid answering not just one, but now two direct questions. Just following the old Mormon Missionary playbook, eh?

Perhaps you don't understand the answers. One of the reasons that the unemployment rate in Utah is so low is because of church employment. There is no red flag because I can see what the church is doing.

 

[dzheremi]

How much food does your church produce for the hungry?

LDS church donates 19 tons of food to Interfaith.

LDS Charities Food Production and Nutrition Program

Millions of pounds of supplies produced by LDS Church farms, facilities

Seeing as how several entire industries are 100% run by Coptic Christians in Egypt (those things that Muslims will not touch for religious reasons: pig farming, wine production, etc.), I'm going to guess quite a bit, at least relative to our size (~10% of Egypt). I couldn't find more recent numbers, but for instance in Manshiet Nasr (Christian suburb of Nasr City), in 2014 they were rearing 50,000-80,000 pigs, which was down from a high of 350,000 in 2009 -- the year the Mubarak government decided to outlaw pigs and destroy the existing livestock (see here). Elsewhere in the country, further from the capital, the percentage of Christians is much higher, and they are mostly poor farmers, so chances are greater the further south you are from Cairo that your food or produce will be the result of a Christian's work at some point in the distribution chain. (And in the USA, anecdotally I can say that when I was in NY staying at the monastery of St. Shenouda, I saw them bring food to the homeless myself. I doubt that's something only they or churches within their diocese are doing.)

What any of this has to do with your church being a bunch of greedy investment banker types, I don't know. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that the LDS corporation doesn't have its charitable arms, so that's a non-sequitur if there ever was one, though I do remember once comparing the LDS' charitable giving to that of Christians more generally in the USA, and it not coming out looking too good for the LDS.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Did you not see a Deseret Industries store and know that it had a cash flow? Just because a person doesn't know about something does not mean it is a deception. The Deseret Industries has been around since 1938.

The difference being Deseret Industries is a non-profit entity, similar to Goodwill. City Creek Mall is owned by a for profit (or is it for prophet?) LDS corporation.

 

[Peter1000]

I will be upfront and say that I don't know much about the mall nor the current financial status of the church other than what I've already posted. Currently, I'm still researching church history from 1820-1890.

I will say that 1. As a member I was always taught and it was a point of pride to tell others that our men were men of God because the leaders were never paid. To my shock, I learn that the prophet and apostles actually are paid. Whether they are paid from tithing or not is irrelevant. Just add it to the pile of deceptions. 2. I was never told about the mall. I had to learn about it after I left. Neither did I know that the church had cash flow other than tithing. SO, I guess just add that to the pile of deceptions as well.

Ignorance on your part is not deception on the church's part.

Our clergy, as you know, is not paid. Some full-time men are paid. The aposltes are all paid for their full-time, all day 24/7 service to the church. I learned this when I was about 13. It was interesting to me because, like you, I had always believed that all of our clergy were not paid. Then I started thinking, if these men are working 24/7 for the church, how do they make a living to support their families. Then it made sense that they were paid for their service. I did not leave the church.

I came to know about the malls, when my best friend was called to audit the churches business side of their cash flow. The original monies came from men and women who helped the church found ZCMI. A department store opened up around 1860 in Salt Lake City. From the beginning it was the largest store in Utah and stayed that way for nearly 150 years with good profits. Remember there is a business side and spritual side of the church. The business side helps members with jobs and helps the economy stay healthy. Professional business men and women work for these entities and taxes are paid on profits just like any other business.

As time went forward, other investments were made by the business side of the church in the community for the same reason. The other cash flow other than tithing is from these businesses, and other offerings that people give to the church for humanitarian aid and missionary fund and foreign job funds, and from gifts, etc., etc., etc. I did not leave the church for this.

We are a world-wide church that makes millions of dollars from its business side and gift from the members and non-members. Tithing brings in billions of dollars because the members are great tithe payers and so the Lord is looking after them as well as making sure his church has plenty of bread for the poor and needy, and places to worship etc., etc., etc.

Tell me what your think?

 

[Hrairoo]

Ignorance on your part is not deception on the church's part.
...

Tell me what your think?

What do I think? I think it sounds like gaslighting, to me. I am 33 years old. I was baptized at 8 and I was an active member until the start of this year. I grew up in the Susquehanna area where the Priesthood was restored and the historical sites have been tended to and displayed with pride. I have a BA in English from Brigham Young University of Idaho. I have taken several of the church's self-sufficiency classes. I have read the scriptures, read church approved church history materials, and watched live General Conferences consistently since I was 17. To tell me that because nobody taught certain things or talked about certain things it is MY fault is just the kind of deception and manipulation I am talking about.

I didn't leave the church because there's a business side to the church(even if that was not something that was ever talked about in all of the classes I have taken). In order from most important to medium importance, the five reasons I left the church:

1. Seer stones
2. The Book of Abraham
3. The church's racist doctrines both past and present
4. Polygamy and polyandry + D&C 132
5. The Kinderhook plates

There are several other things added onto this list but these are the main reasons why I cannot believe in the LDS church anymore. I have read apologetics from churchofjesuschrist.org itself and it is probably what has damaged my testimony the most.

 

[mmksparbud]

Shia Islam is required to give 20%---American Jews give the most of any group. (They also make the most!!)
Years ago it was no trouble to look up this information. They were posted by denomination---now it is almost impossible to find. It took me forever to find out the above through many websites.

This from one website:
Among Americans who claim a religious affiliation, the study said, 65 percent give to charity. Among those who do not identify a religious creed, 56 percent make charitable gifts.
• Black Protestants, followed by Roman Catholics and Jews, were the most likely to give out of the desire to help the needy.

• The three most popular charitable causes for all households regardless of religious affiliation were, in descending order: basic social services, “combined purpose” organizations (like United Way), and health care.
Religious Americans Give More, New Study Finds


This one has lots of info, but again, nothing by denomination.
2018 Charitable Giving Statistics, Trends & Data: The Ultimate List of Charity Giving Stats | Nonprofits Source
List of the top 10 richest churches---it includes LDS-

They are not included in the top 10 churches that give to the poor.
The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities - Theology Degrees

 

[He is the way]

Seeing as how several entire industries are 100% run by Coptic Christians in Egypt (those things that Muslims will not touch for religious reasons: pig farming, wine production, etc.), I'm going to guess quite a bit, at least relative to our size (~10% of Egypt). I couldn't find more recent numbers, but for instance in Manshiet Nasr (Christian suburb of Nasr City), in 2014 they were rearing 50,000-80,000 pigs, which was down from a high of 350,000 in 2009 -- the year the Mubarak government decided to outlaw pigs and destroy the existing livestock (see here). Elsewhere in the country, further from the capital, the percentage of Christians is much higher, and they are mostly poor farmers, so chances are greater the further south you are from Cairo that your food or produce will be the result of a Christian's work at some point in the distribution chain. (And in the USA, anecdotally I can say that when I was in NY staying at the monastery of St. Shenouda, I saw them bring food to the homeless myself. I doubt that's something only they or churches within their diocese are doing.)

What any of this has to do with your church being a bunch of greedy investment banker types, I don't know. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that the LDS corporation doesn't have its charitable arms, so that's a non-sequitur if there ever was one, though I do remember once comparing the LDS' charitable giving to that of Christians more generally in the USA, and it not coming out looking too good for the LDS.

You said: " I do remember once comparing the LDS' charitable giving to that of Christians more generally in the USA, and it not coming out looking too good for the LDS." Was that per capita? You do realize that the LDS Church is only 1.6% of the population of the United States while Christianity comprises 65%. So did Christians give 40 times as much to charity?

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: " I do remember once comparing the LDS' charitable giving to that of Christians more generally in the USA, and it not coming out looking too good for the LDS." Was that per capita? You do realize that the LDS Church is only 1.6% of the population of the United States while Christianity comprises 65%. So did Christians give 40 times as much to charity?

But for being amongst the top 10 richest churches, how come you are not amongst the 10 givers?

 

[He is the way]

The difference being Deseret Industries is a non-profit entity, similar to Goodwill. City Creek Mall is owned by a for profit (or is it for prophet?) LDS corporation.

Many churches have for profit businesses.

 

[He is the way]

But for being amongst the top 10 richest churches, how come you are not amongst the 10 givers?

Why do you think we are not in the top ten?

Utah and Mormons are the most generous givers