Phosphine gas detected in Venusian atmosphere (Now with Poll!)

Do you believe life currently exists on either Mars or Venus?

  • Yes, the evidence shows it conclusively.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, I have a massive belief in it.

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Probably, the evidence is quite compelling.

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Possibly, the evidence is tantalizing.

    Votes: 8 23.5%
  • Not very likely, the evidence is circumstantial.

    Votes: 11 32.4%
  • Extremely unlikely, the evidence is not at all compelling.

    Votes: 11 32.4%
  • No, the evidence is really against it.

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • No, I have a massive disbelief in it.

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    34

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
In the 45-75km altitude range the H₂SO₄ concentration is 73-98%.

H₂SO₄ is produced in the Venusian atmosphere via the following reactions.
CO₂ → CO + O (photo-disassociation of CO₂ by photons.)
SO₂ + O → SO₃
2SO₃ + 4H₂O → 2H₂SO₄. H₂O

Furthermore H₂SO₄ is hygroscopic and its concentration is a function of the amount of H₂O absorbed.
Even at 70% concentration H₂SO₄ is highly corrosive to most organic matter so rather than reactivating the bacterium inside the spore it would seem more likely to destroy it.
Ok .. so I still agree that Seager's Earth-example-centric hypothesis, seems to have a problem around this point.

So, {'achem' .. throat clearing sound here}; let me wave my magic speculation wand (and wickedly, deliberately, shift the goalposts in order to get my way :)) and invoke surface Abiogenesis, followed by an organism evolving over time and adapting to increasing concentrations of sulphuric acid, (and escaping water), and then becoming an airborne spore.
(Ie: @FrumiousBandersnatch's idea has now been changed from panspermia to naturally Venusian evolved).

From: 'Acidophile', it appears that some of our earthly ones have adapted ways of keeping their cytoplasm at a neutral pH, even when immersed in an acidic environment. Others have acidic cytoplasm, and special proteins that contain H+ ions.

So, our Venusian organic chemistry is basically now acidic (with variations in concentrations, thereof):
.. other acidophiles, such as Acetobacter aceti, have an acidified cytoplasm which forces nearly all proteins in the genome to evolve acid stability. For this reason, Acetobacter aceti has become a valuable resource for understanding the mechanisms by which proteins can attain acid stability.
Will that work as a substitute hypothesis?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
4,920
3,979
✟277,730.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ok .. so I still agree that Seager's Earth-example-centric hypothesis, seems to have a problem around this point.

So, {'achem' .. throat clearing sound here}; let me wave my magic speculation wand (and wickedly, deliberately, shift the goalposts in order to get my way :)) and invoke surface Abiogenesis, followed by an organism evolving over time and adapting to increasing concentrations of sulphuric acid, (and escaping water), and then becoming an airborne spore.
(Ie: @FrumiousBandersnatch's idea has now been changed from panspermia to naturally Venusian evolved).

From: 'Acidophile', it appears that some of our earthly ones have adapted ways of keeping their cytoplasm at a neutral pH, even when immersed in an acidic environment. Others have acidic cytoplasm, and special proteins that contain H+ ions.

So, our Venusian organic chemistry is basically now acidic (with variations in concentrations, thereof):Will that work as a substitute hypothesis?
What makes sulfuric acid special apart from being a powerful dehydrating agent, the reaction with water is highly exothermic.
The heat alone generated in the reaction can boil the cytoplasm in a bacterium cell and destroy it.

Here is a video of a complete utter imbecile adding water to concentrated sulfuric acid instead of adding the acid to water without safety goggles, gloves etc.
The water boils on contact with the acid.

I doubt very much a bacterium can be biochemically active in the presence of concentrated sulfuric acid.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Here is a video of a complete utter imbecile adding water to concentrated sulfuric acid instead of adding the acid to water without safety goggles, gloves etc.
The water boils on contact with the acid.
Unsupervised school kids (looks like they're wearing school uniforms?)
sjastro said:
I doubt very much a bacterium can be biochemically active in the presence of concentrated sulfuric acid.
I agree .. so now all the woo speculators will sweep all those incoveniences under the rug and just say Venus life is just well .. err ..'different' from Earth's .. and it must exist because the atmospheric phosphine does. :rolleyes:

I must admit Seager/Greaves' Hypothetical paper amounts to basically zip and word-salad. Here's a quote confirming your point (my emboldenment):
Seager/Greaves etal said:
It is quite impossible for terrestrial metabolism to function in concentrated sulfuric acid where the majority of terrestrial biochemicals would be destroyed in seconds. There is extensive literature on the reactions of classes of molecules with concentrated sulfuric acid. Crucial biochemicals are unstable in sulfuric acid and include sugars (including nucleic acids, RNA, and DNA) (Krieble, 1935; Dische, 1949; Long and Paul, 1957), proteins (Reitz et al., 1946; Habeeb, 1961), and other compounds such as lipids and complex carbohydrates (as shown, e.g., by studies on dissolution of organic matter away from the outer shell of pollen grains; Moore et al., 1991) and small-molecule metabolites of Earth’s life core metabolism (Wiig, 1930; DeRight, 1934).
That paragraph seems to be aimed at fellow scientists and the rest of the paper seems to be aimed at the sci-fi woo-sers .. y'know .. like the Drake Equation .. a whole lot of structure with no substance, surrounded by a lot of spin.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
(Ie: @FrumiousBandersnatch's idea has now been changed from panspermia to naturally Venusian evolved).
I wasn't suggesting panspermia, just local transfer between Earth, Venus, & Mars. Your suggestion of origin on Venus is compatible, as life is likely to have arisen on one planet first, and it could have been Venus. I don't know offhand which of the three is thought to have been suitable for abiogenesis earliest, but it doesn't really matter.
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
I wasn't suggesting panspermia, just local transfer between Earth, Venus, & Mars. Your suggestion of origin on Venus is compatible, as life is likely to have arisen on one planet first, and it could have been Venus. I don't know offhand which of the three is thought to have been suitable for abiogenesis earliest, but it doesn't really matter.
Well why not all three at (roughly) the same time?

The idea was that when life starts up, it starts out in similar ways (chemically) and I suppose when self replicators (etc) kick in, evolution by NS takes it in whatever direction is suitable for each specific planetary environment/niche. Venus lost its water and had the runaway GH effect which (maybe) somehow forced a dramatically different change in post replicator base chemistry which then helped it cope with the present day acidic, dry, exothermic atmosphere(?)

This isn't my idea .. (coming clean): I'm dealing with a 'speculative amateur astrobiologist' (outside of CFs) who takes objective evidence such as Venus' atmospheric phosphine detection, and then uses that as the basis for concluding that Venusian life 'might therefore be true' .. its just not the same life as Earth-life .. its 'Venusian life' and its (dramatically) different from ours (but it still produces phosphine like our acidophiles might in the Venusian atmosphere).

I must admit, the Seager/Greaves hypothesis paper brings on this type of thinking .. which is a real problem, IMO.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
Well why not all three at (roughly) the same time?
I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely. That scenario suggests a very high likelihood of life arising in suitable conditions and suitable conditions appearing on all three planets at roughly the same time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely. That scenario suggests a very high likelihood of life arising in suitable conditions and suitable conditions appearing on all three planets at roughly the same time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
See this is the fundamental problem with using 'likely/unlikely' ('plausible/implausible') as the basis for promoting or dismissing exo-life arguments. Once the lid is off that Pandora's Box, what's in it, is only constrained by a subjective interpretation of reality. Better to stick with the honesty of 'don't know' and proceed with exploration guided by the practical constraints of funding, resources and demonstrable (in theory) chances of mission success.
At least that way, science has a chance of surviving in a hugely partisan world.
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
As a reminder, and as an aid in positioning the phosphine claim alongside other similar claims, (ie: the Pandora's box), and for the record:

Here’s a list of notable contraversial pieces of so-called ‘claims of evidence’ for exo-life over relatively cent years of planetary exploration:

1. 1976, The Viking Mars landers detect chemical signatures indicative of life;

2. 1977, The unexplained extraterrestrial “Wow!” signal is detected by an Ohio State University radio telescope;

3. 1996, Martian “fossils” are discovered in meteorite ALH84001 from Antarctica;

4. 2001, More rigorous calculations connected to the 1960s “Drake equation” suggests that our galaxy may contain hundreds of thousands of life-bearing planets;

5. 2001, The red tinge of Jupiter’s moon Europa proposed to be due to frozen bits of bacteria, which also helps explain the mysterious infrared signal it gives off;

6. 2002, Russian scientists argue that a mysterious radiation-proof species of microbe may have evolved on Mars;

7. 2002, Chemical hints of life are found in old data from Venus probes and landers. Could microbes exist in Venusian clouds?

This one is of course, one of the Venusian life forerunners to Seager/Greaves’ announcement. Apparently carbonyl sulphide(?) was also detected in 2002. This is also only known to be produced by microbes or catalysts on Earth, and not by any other known inorganic process .. (and so the Venus life idea already has this ‘plausibility boost').

8. 2003, Sulphur traces on Jupiter’s moon Europa may be the waste products of underground bacterial colonies;

9. 2004, Methane in the Martian atmosphere hints at microbial metabolism;

10. 2004, A mysterious radio signal is received by the SETI project on three occasions – from the same region of space;

11. Tabby’s Star ‘might be’ surrounded by a Dyson Swarm.

For me, this list is hard evidence that the so-called possibility of exo-life has hardened into a nothing more than a massive belief in that. Ie: (and if I'm not mistaken), there are other 'plausible' explanations for all of these, which are almost always completely forgotten in typical claims of so-called 'evidence for exo-life'(?)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,270
36,594
Los Angeles Area
✟829,992.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
the so-called possibility of exo-life has hardened into a nothing more than a massive belief in that.

Just for you I've added a poll, referring particularly to Mars and Venus. There's another reasonably current thread with a poll more generally about life on other planets.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Just for you I've added a poll, referring particularly to Mars and Venus. There's another reasonably current thread with a poll more generally about life on other planets.
Well thanks kindly for that.

I won't answer the question though .. I almost never do because what I believe, or don't believe, is completely irrelevant.

What do you think about what's been posted? Just asking because you obviously have an interest in the phosphine finding and I haven't seen many posts from you in the thread(?)
Cheers
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
See this is the fundamental problem with using 'likely/unlikely' ('plausible/implausible') as the basis for promoting or dismissing exo-life arguments. Once the lid is off that Pandora's Box, what's in it, is only constrained by a subjective interpretation of reality. Better to stick with the honesty of 'don't know' and proceed with exploration guided by the practical constraints of funding, resources and demonstrable (in theory) chances of mission success.
At least that way, science has a chance of surviving in a hugely partisan world.
It's a given that we don't know, else we wouldn't be speculating. But that doesn't mean we know nothing. A probabilistic analysis is often possible given some simple assumptions. That's a part of assessing and ranking hypotheses so we can explore and fund the research with - all else being equal - what seems to be the best chances of 'success'.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,270
36,594
Los Angeles Area
✟829,992.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
I won't answer the question though .. I almost never do because what I believe, or don't believe, is completely irrelevant.

That may be, but you were making an assertion about what others believe. Something about 'massive belief in exolife'. I think you can see the answers without taking the poll, but at the moment, none of the 6 replies rate life on Mars and Venus and higher than 'possibly'.

What do you think about what's been posted?

I'm not sure. The discussion seems unfocused, so I don't know what to say. Regarding the original observation, I'll stick with the OP: 'attributing it to life on Venus is a larger stretch'
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
It's a given that we don't know, else we wouldn't be speculating. But that doesn't mean we know nothing. A probabilistic analysis is often possible given some simple assumptions. That's a part of assessing and ranking hypotheses so we can explore and fund the research with - all else being equal - what seems to be the best chances of 'success'.
The way I see it is that we can readily distinguish between two general primary strategic goals for space (or local body) exploration and they just simply aren't a case of 'all being equal':

i) General exploration - to see whatever there is to see, or;
ii) Looking for something specific (ie: focused searches) - the specific hunt for 'exo-life' which always ends up having to be earth-life where robotic/lab testing is the primary means of diagnosis (ie: microbial).

If (i) is chosen as the goal, then in comparison against (ii), the mission is focused on things which are within our capabilities of managing (spacecraft design/implementation, instrumentation design/implementation, etc).

Where (ii) is chosen however, mission success depends on there actually being exo-life present in some targetted location. Mission success in this case, is dependent on an element which is beyond our capability of management from the very outset. It requires believing in the 'likely' existence of exo-life - ie: one has chosen to believe in that particular probability. There have been notable non-results produced from strategy (ii) (eg: Viking's Mars-life detection experiments package).
Historical failures resulting from (i) will also impact (ii) anyway .. so there is no disadvantage there coming from adopting (i).
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
That may be, but you were making an assertion about what others believe. Something about 'massive belief in exolife'. I think you can see the answers without taking the poll, but at the moment, none of the 6 replies rate life on Mars and Venus and higher than 'possibly'.
The issue I'm referring to goes way beyond CFs. Its clearly a much broader scientific and non-scientific community issue, (which is where I've basically been coming from).

essentialsaltes said:
I'm not sure. The discussion seems unfocused, so I don't know what to say.
Any suggestions on how to focus it more then? (I'm willing - its certainly a web-popular discussion topic at the moment).
I would have thought microbial-destruction-by-acid-attack was pretty focused though(?)

essentialsaltes said:
Regarding the original observation, I'll stick with the OP: 'attributing it to life on Venus is a larger stretch'
.. and we're stretchin' it here too, no?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
The way I see it is that we can readily distinguish between two general primary strategic goals for space (or local body) exploration and they just simply aren't a case of 'all being equal':

i) General exploration - to see whatever there is to see, or;
ii) Looking for something specific (ie: focused searches) - the specific hunt for 'exo-life' which always ends up having to be earth-life where robotic/lab testing is the primary means of diagnosis (ie: microbial).

If (i) is chosen as the goal, then in comparison against (ii), the mission is focused on things which are within our capabilities of managing (spacecraft design/implementation, instrumentation design/implementation, etc).

Where (ii) is chosen however, mission success depends on there actually being exo-life present in some targetted location. Mission success in this case, is dependent on an element which is beyond our capability of management from the very outset. It requires believing in the 'likely' existence of exo-life - ie: one has chosen to believe in that particular probability. There have been notable non-results produced from strategy (ii) (eg: Viking's Mars-life detection experiments package).
Historical failures resulting from (i) will also impact (ii) anyway .. so there is no disadvantage there coming from adopting (i).
Of course all else isn't equal, there are a multitude of practical factors, with feasibility and cost high on the list, which is why ranking hypotheses by their probability of producing the desired results is just part of the process.

It's worth noting that mission success means that all the work (or even a majority of the work) that was intended to be done was done; the equipment worked, results were obtained. Negative results may not be as exciting as positive results, but that's how it goes.
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Of course all else isn't equal, there are a multitude of practical factors, with feasibility and cost high on the list, which is why ranking hypotheses by their probability of producing the desired results is just part of the process.
And that's not what I meant in my previous post. I'm saying that strategy(i) and strategy(ii), are fundamentally different and are not equal. The motivations behind them are different also.
When one uses the phrase 'all {..whatever..} being equal', one is usually invoking Occam's Razor as a heuristic for deciding between competing hypothesis. A strategy isn't an hypothesis its a means of optimising for gaining successful outcomes.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
It's worth noting that mission success means that all the work (or even a majority of the work) that was intended to be done was done; the equipment worked, results were obtained.
No .. I disagree with that definition. One can test all of that, and return its results, before launching such a mission to some planet/moon .. so therefore, that definition of mission success is not about hunting for exo-life.

Scientific, investigative research missions into unknown domains are about returning previously unknown (or inaccessible) information about that domain. The aim of finding exo-life, by any meaning we attach to the term 'exo-life' I can imagine, has to fall squarely into that very category(?) In the case where missions target returning information about exo-life, which may not be present in that location, by that definition of success, will fail in that location and no new information will be returned specifically about 'exo-life'.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
Negative results may not be as exciting as positive results, but that's how it goes.
Except in the example of the Viking Mars life mission, an ambiguous result was returned.

An exo-life hunting mission's negative result return, in terms of previously unknown information, is so vanishingly small compared with a planetary scale (& upwards) environment, that it has to be virtually zero .. and therefore, practically useless in terms of telling us anything new about the possibility of exo-life(?)
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
6,193
1,971
✟177,142.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Not according to the poll results.
Well ok then .. thus far, I understand and accept your point within the context of this thread (and its 6 'not likely' voters).
As I've said though, I'm mostly referring to the view taken by the majority of people beyond just this site and/or this thread. So, taking a snapshot of the other thread (for eg), where the poll question was specifically:

'Do you believe that there's life on other planets?'


We have the following results:
Yes, I believe that it's possible: 36 votes (76.6%)
No way!: 11 votes (23.4%)
I take the position of: 'Don't know', (which I note, is not too far from your own more agnostic position of 'not sure'), in answer to that specific question, (I didn't cast a vote there either), and don't really care about what people believe what 'might be possible' when it comes to this particular topic.

It may be just a linguisitic thing going on here(?) .. but there's also a lot of evidence around, that people's above response goes much deeper than just a linguisitic interpretation about the word: 'believe'. The question inquires about a philosophical position being held (and then the poll more or less forces an answer to be given, again, in that very context). I cite the Seager/Greaves hypothesis document as evidence of that deeper significance. The notorious NASA planetary scientist: Chris McKay, wrote another such one on hypothetical Titan lifeforms, also).

The laws and physical constants of our obs. universe however, don't rule out another instance of earth-life .. and then (Occam's R+the Cosmological Principle) can then be invoked to tip the balance (philosophically) in favour of it, but that doesn't mean I have to believe that also makes it physically (objectively) real, or even 'likely', (with the latter: if I so choose).
I simply don't know (and that's just me being totally honest about what we do know.
(And you may be taking that same viewpoint(?), which I'm also willing to acknowledge upon your verification of that).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,262
8,057
✟326,744.00
Faith
Atheist
And that's not what I meant in my previous post. I'm saying that strategy(i) and strategy(ii), are fundamentally different and are not equal. The motivations behind them are different also.
Ah, OK - sorry, I thought you were responding to my use of 'all else being equal' (i.e. ignoring practical considerations).

No .. I disagree with that definition. One can test all of that, and return its results, before launching such a mission to some planet/moon ..
I don't follow - obviously you can test the equipment, but you can't get the results of a mission without doing the mission.

Scientific, investigative research missions into unknown domains are about returning previously unknown (or inaccessible) information about that domain.
Sure; information such as, if you make observation (e.g. experiment) X in domain Y, you [do/do not] get results consistent with the presence of life.

Getting results from an experiment that show the absence of what is being tested for is informative.

Except in the example of the Viking Mars life mission, an ambiguous result was returned.
Yes; that's pretty common in biological research for various reasons - technical limitations of the instruments, confounding factors, limited understanding of the conditions, poor or constrained experimental design, etc.

An exo-life hunting mission's negative result return, in terms of previously unknown information, is so vanishingly small compared with a planetary scale (& upwards) environment, that it has to be virtually zero .. and therefore, practically useless in terms of telling us anything new about the possibility of exo-life(?)
It gives you information that tells you about the chemistry and composition of the tested samples, and can help you decide what (if anything) to do next.
 
Upvote 0