Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
This all looks like things that I have already addressed in previous posts; the vast majority of which I had addressed in post 224.

You have not addressed any of this, or can you. Your doctrine is totally unsupported by other Scripture and you have admitted that repeatedly.

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is not right. Rev 19 could not be more climactic. Christ is coming is like a thief. The destruction is sudden (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-13). It is also total for the wicked (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 19:11-19). The wicked are destroyed from His very presence.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 any clearer: “when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming firetaking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 6:13-17 records: “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 19:11-16 mirrors this passage, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

You seem to think that there will be no surviving righteous on the face of the earth when Christ returns but that is absolutely false as the following passages point out: Matthew 24:22, 25:31-46, Mark 13:20, and Revelation 18:4.

It is for the sake of the righteous that Christ is even returning (Mt. 24:22, Mk. 13:20) for God will never leave Himself without a people on the earth. If He allowed the righteous to be wiped off the face of the earth, that would be a victory for Satan and a defeat for God, because with all of the righteous gone, Satan would be able to lay complete claim to the earth because Christ would have nothing to return to. The war for earth would be lost.

There will be no surviving wicked, but there will still be surviving righteous. And while it is undeniably true that Christ will return unexpectedly as a thief at some point, how is it possible for the wicked to go face an enemy on the battlefield whom they do not believe will appear? (Rev. 17:12-14, 19:19)

Contenders Edge · Sep 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You have not addressed any of this, or can you. Your doctrine is totally unsupported by other Scripture and you have admitted that repeatedly.

Read post 224 and you will find that I gave a generalized answer to what is in the vast majority of your post plus the rest of what is in that post I answered in other posts. I did enough research to know that you did not create a new post. All you did was regurgitate old content that you spliced from posts 88 and 209 together to make it appear as if you created a new post.

and there are a number of things besides the thousand year reign that are mentioned only once in scripture and yet that they are mentioned even once by scripture is enough for them to be accepted as truth and according to how they are presented in their given context. Why treat Revelation 20 any differently?

It alone is sufficient enough to establish that there is going to be a one thousand year reign during which Satan will be bound in an abyss for a thousand years before this present earth is finally destroyed and replaced with a new and better one.

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You seem to think that there will be no surviving righteous on the face of the earth when Christ returns but that is absolutely false as the following passages point out: Matthew 24:22, 25:31-46, Mark 13:20, and Revelation 18:4.

It is for the sake of the righteous that Christ is even returning (Mt. 24:22, Mk. 13:20) for God will never leave Himself without a people on the earth. If He allowed the righteous to be wiped off the face of the earth, that would be a victory for Satan and a defeat for God, because with all of the righteous gone, Satan would be able to lay complete claim to the earth because Christ would have nothing to return to. The war for earth would be lost.

There will be no surviving wicked, but there will still be surviving righteous. And while it is undeniably true that Christ will return unexpectedly as a thief at some point, how is it possible for the wicked to go face an enemy on the battlefield whom they do not believe will appear? (Rev. 17:12-14, 19:19)

I honestly do not know how you come to your conclusions. You invent a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, you argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth.

Who is this group of supposed "surviving righteous" and why do they miss the catching away? Obviously they are not saved.
If they are not saved, why are they not destroyed?

The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous; those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

sovereigngrace · Sep 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Read post 224 and you will find that I gave a generalized answer to what is in the vast majority of your post plus the rest of what is in that post I answered in other posts. I did enough research to know that you did not create a new post. All you did was regurgitate old content that you spliced from posts 88 and 209 together to make it appear as if you created a new post.

and there are a number of things besides the thousand year reign that are mentioned only once in scripture and yet that they are mentioned even once by scripture is enough for them to be accepted as truth and according to how they are presented in their given context. Why treat Revelation 20 any differently?

It alone is sufficient enough to establish that there is going to be a one thousand year reign during which Satan will be bound in an abyss for a thousand years before this present earth is finally destroyed and replaced with a new and better one.

No. You totally avoided every point. That speaks volumes. The reader will see who is ducking the issues and who is addressing them.

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I honestly do not know how you come to your conclusions. You invent a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, you argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth.

Who is this group of supposed "surviving righteous" and why do they miss the catching away? Obviously they are not saved.

If they are not saved, why are they not destroyed?

The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous; those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

They missed the catching away because they weren't saved before then. They were only saved after the catching away for which there is no given time or day, but that is a subject that departs from the subject of this thread. My conclusions are based on simply taking the scriptures for what they say. If John says there is going to be a thousand year reign, then there is going to be a thousand year reign. End of story, case closed. If he says that Satan is going to be bound to an abyss during that time, then that is what is going to happen. End of story, case closed. If God said that He created the world in six days, then He created the world in six days. End of story, case closed. If God said that the earth was fully engulfed in a flood in the days of Noah, then that is what happened. End of story, case closed; doesn't matter what anyone else says. What matters is that the given context of scripture says concerning everything it speaks on.

You keep accusing me of inventing some third group of people, but I never said there was any third group of people. But I have already given scripture to you, which you have clearly rejected, that clearly makes clear that there will be survivors who are not wicked and who did not fight against Christ or His people who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom you have who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom, and who apparently will go on to produce offspring who sadly rebel against Christ and attempt to but fail to overthrow Him. (Rev. 20:7-10) We've gone over this before.

You claim to interpret scripture with scripture, but quite frankly, I don't think you even know how to really do that because if you really were interpreting scripture with scripture, you would be interpreting the scripture, according to its given context with scripture according to its given context and interpreting scripture with scripture relating to the same subject in question, but you don't do that; you persist in imposing interpretations foreign to one or more of the scriptures involved.

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No. You totally avoided every point. That speaks volumes. The reader will see who is ducking the issues and who is addressing them.

No I did not and the readers will see that I did answer your every point, but I doubt you even read the post because if you did, you would have found my answers to your every point and if there was a point that I did not answer it is perhaps because I did not find it relevant to the topic of this thread.

BABerean2 · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But I have already given scripture to you, which you have clearly rejected, that clearly makes clear that there will be survivors who are not wicked and who did not fight against Christ or His people who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom you have who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom, and who apparently will go on to produce offspring who sadly rebel against Christ and attempt to but fail to overthrow Him.

You have to ignore what Christ said about the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46 to come up with mortals alive on the planet for 1,000 years after His return.

You also have to ignore what Paul said about Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

You also have to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18, which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

The judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Pastor Wagner reveals the scriptures which kill the Premill doctrine:

.

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

BABerean2 said:
You have to ignore what Christ said about the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46 to come up with mortals alive on the planet for 1,000 years after His return.

You also have to ignore what Paul said about Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

You also have to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18, which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

The judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Pastor Wagner reveals the scriptures which kill the Premill doctrine:

.

You have to ignore the vast majority of Revelation 20 to make YOUR doctrine work:

1) That the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead do not come back to life until after the thousand years end.

2) That Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years.

3) That Christ and the saints will rule this earth for a thousand years

4) That, as a final test for mankind, Satan will be released from his prison to lead the vast majority of the people on the earth in a final rebellion against Christ.

sovereigngrace · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You have to ignore the vast majority of Revelation 20 to make YOUR doctrine work:

1) That the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead do not come back to life until after the thousand years end.

2) That Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years.

3) That Christ and the saints will rule this earth for a thousand years

4) That, as a final test for mankind, Satan will be released from his prison to lead the vast majority of the people on the earth in a final rebellion against Christ.

You have to ignore the vast majority of Holy Scripture to make YOUR doctrine work.

sovereigngrace · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
They missed the catching away because they weren't saved before then. They were only saved after the catching away for which there is no given time or day, but that is a subject that departs from the subject of this thread.

My conclusions are based on simply taking the scriptures for what they say. If John says there is going to be a thousand year reign, then there is going to be a thousand year reign. End of story, case closed. If he says that Satan is going to be bound to an abyss during that time, then that is what is going to happen. End of story, case closed. If God said that He created the world in six days, then He created the world in six days. End of story, case closed. If God said that the earth was fully engulfed in a flood in the days of Noah, then that is what happened. End of story, case closed; doesn't matter what anyone else says. What matters is that the given context of scripture says concerning everything it speaks on.

My conclusions are based on simply taking the scriptures for what they say. If John says there is going to be a thousand year reign, then there is going to be a thousand year reign. End of story, case closed. If he says that Satan is going to be bound to an abyss during that time, then that is what is going to happen. End of story, case closed. If God said that He created the world in six days, then He created the world in six days. End of story, case closed. If God said that the earth was fully engulfed in a flood in the days of Noah, then that is what happened. End of story, case closed; doesn't matter what anyone else says. What matters is that the given context of scripture says concerning everything it speaks on.

You keep accusing me of inventing some third group of people, but I never said there was any third group of people. But I have already given scripture to you, which you have clearly rejected, that clearly makes clear that there will be survivors who are not wicked and who did not fight against Christ or His people who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom you have who will be allowed to enter into the new Kingdom, and who apparently will go on to produce offspring who sadly rebel against Christ and attempt to but fail to overthrow Him. (Rev. 20:7-10) We've gone over this before.

You claim to interpret scripture with scripture, but quite frankly, I don't think you even know how to really do that because if you really were interpreting scripture with scripture, you would be interpreting the scripture, according to its given context with scripture according to its given context and interpreting scripture with scripture relating to the same subject in question, but you don't do that; you persist in imposing interpretations foreign to one or more of the scriptures involved.

No:

Your conclusions are based upon an unhealthy obsession with one single highly-debated chapter, located in the most obscure setting in Scripture.
Your conclusions are based upon ignoring the explicit climactic detail of repeated Scripture.
Your conclusions are based upon a refusal to interpret Scripture with Scripture.
Your conclusions are based upon explaining away the clear and explicit with the symbolic and the obscure.
Your conclusions are based upon a faulty hyper-literal approach to Revelation.
Your conclusions are based upon a faulty chronological approach to Revelation.

The reality is: there is no hope after Christ comes, there is no more salvation, there is no second chanc, there are no survivors. Humans are either caught up or caught on. You must invent some imaginary 3rd group unknown to the sacred pages that are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

As the destruction of Noah’s day is given as a powerful picture of the second coming, how many children that were locked outside the ark below the age of accountability at the time of the flood survived?

As the destruction of Sodom is given as an accurate picture of the second coming, how many children that were left in Sodom below the age of accountability at the time of the fiery destruction in Sodom survived?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

You say some will escape. The Holy Spirit say "they shall not escape.” I go with the Holy Spirit. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for your theory of survivors.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

There is an awful reward for the Christ-rejecter – this will come on that final last day when all will stand before the throne of God and receive their judgment. There the living and the dead will receive their just reward. Whilst the persecutors and mockers are being destroyed and sent to hell, believers will be ushered into eternal “rest.” The tribulation that they have concentrated upon the righteous will be turned on the perpetrators. The Holy Spirit tells us that Christ appears at His Coming “in flaming fire” with the intention of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

sovereigngrace · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You have to ignore the vast majority of Revelation 20 to make YOUR doctrine work:

1) That the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead do not come back to life until after the thousand years end.

2) That Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years.

3) That Christ and the saints will rule this earth for a thousand years

4) That, as a final test for mankind, Satan will be released from his prison to lead the vast majority of the people on the earth in a final rebellion against Christ.

Is there a resurrection in the New Testament, pertaining to the believer, which precedes the physical resurrection, which releases a man from the punishment of the second death (eternal wrath)? If so, what is it?

Is the resurrection mentioned throughout the Word of God that delivers us from eternal punishment (the second death), physical or spiritual?

Timtofly · Sep 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Your conclusions are based upon an unhealthy obsession with one single highly-debated chapter, located in the most obscure setting in Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon ignoring the explicit climactic detail of repeated Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon a refusal to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon explaining away the clear and explicit with the symbolic and the obscure.

Your conclusions are based upon a faulty hyper-literal approach to Revelation.

Your conclusions are based upon a faulty chronological approach to Revelation.

Amil are obsessed with explaining away Revelation 20. Amil are the ones who keep debating Revelation 20.

Amil ignore the power of God’s Sovereign resurrection after God's total destruction of Adam's descendants physically.

Amil avoid the clear explicit Resurrection. They conflate this as symbolic and twist Scripture to get it to fit in the here and now.

Amil rely on a faulty private interpretation of a non symbolic passage.

Amil claims John was unable to correctly identify the chronological order of events and only modern humans (with private interpretation) show the correct chronology.

BABerean2 · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
You have to ignore the vast majority of Revelation 20 to make YOUR doctrine work:

1) That the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead do not come back to life until after the thousand years end.

2) That Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years.

3) That Christ and the saints will rule this earth for a thousand years

4) That, as a final test for mankind, Satan will be released from his prison to lead the vast majority of the people on the earth in a final rebellion against Christ.

1. The "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11.

2. We know some of the angels are already bound in some manner as found in Revelation 9:14, and Jude 1:6.

3. In the verse below Peter revealed that Christ is already both ruler (Lord), and Christ on the Day of Pentecost.
What is He now Lord of?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

4. Do you think we are not now seeing a world in rebellion against God, and His Son? Do you not see a great falling away from our faith?

.

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
Amil are obsessed with explaining away Revelation 20. Amil are the ones who keep debating Revelation 20.

Amil ignore the power of God’s Sovereign resurrection after God's total destruction of Adam's descendants physically.

Amil avoid the clear explicit Resurrection. They conflate this as symbolic and twist Scripture to get it to fit in the here and now.

Amil rely on a faulty private interpretation of a non symbolic passage.

Amil claims John was unable to correctly identify the chronological order of events and only modern humans (with private interpretation) show the correct chronology.

Well said.

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

BABerean2 said:
1. The "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11.

2. We know some of the angels are already bound in some manner as found in Revelation 9:14, and Jude 1:6.

3. In the verse below Peter revealed that Christ is already both ruler (Lord), and Christ on the Day of Pentecost.
What is He now Lord of?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

4. Do you think we are not now seeing a world in rebellion against God, and His Son? Do you not see a great falling away from our faith?

.

The "first resurrection" is not a resurrection of just a few individuals, but the collective resurrection of all the dead in Christ. As for the rest, there is nothing to debate except that the rulership of Christ is not presently being enforced in this present world to the extent that it will be when He returns. Until He returns, He has permitted things, to take their course to a certain extent.

sovereigngrace · Sep 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
Amil are obsessed with explaining away Revelation 20. Amil are the ones who keep debating Revelation 20.

Not so. You are always saying the opposite to what Amils believe. You seem to make a habit of that. A genuine Christian should never employ such deceit. The reason you continually do this is because you have no rebuttal for the Amil position. I understand your frustration, but this is a consequence of backing the wrong horse in the battle for truth.

Revelation 20 reinforces the whole Amil paradigm. It outlines the whole intra-Advent period and key events from the first resurrection of Christ until the general resurrection. From Christ mighty all-conquering earthly ministry, the dead in Christ go immediately into the presence of God in heaven. Revelation shows the "souls" of the saints currently reigning with Christ in glory. But when Jesus returns He is going to destroy the wicked, regenerate this earth, and bring us back to the new earth to abide forever. We see this happening at the end of Satan;'s little season.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations. It is a spiritual condition of restraint that prevents them from curtailing the Gospel advance to the ethnos (Gentiles).

The dog can go as far as the chain takes him. So, it is with Satan. The restraint he is under restricts his movement, thus curtailing the injury he can inflict. If you get close to a dangerous dog on a leash you will normally experience the consequences. It will bite you. Stay away from it and you will be fine. The reality is, a prisoner in a prison can walk, move, roam even do vice and injury, but that does not negate the fact he is restricted behind bars. Satan is a spiritual being that resides within a spiritual prison since his defeat at the cross.

Amil ignore the power of God’s Sovereign resurrection after God's total destruction of Adam's descendants physically.

I don't not know what you are trying to say (although that is nothing new). I hope you do.

Amil avoid the clear explicit Resurrection. They conflate this as symbolic and twist Scripture to get it to fit in the here and now.

Premils deny Christ's first resurrection even the Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Amil rely on a faulty private interpretation of a non symbolic passage.

Romans 4:3 instructs us, "For what saith the Scripture?"

Amils believe that we build Scripture upon Scripture in order to piece God’s truth together. We embrace the full gamut of Holy Writ. We do not limit our understanding of a future time-line to one chapter or one book. That would be insane.

Jesus said in Matthew 4:4: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.”

Interpreting a text to the exclusion of other relevant Scripture is censured here. Imposing your bias school of thought on a Scripture text is wrong. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scriptures. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. If we employ this interpretive rule, I believe, one cannot but arrive at any other conclusion than the coming of Christ is climactic and ushers in eternity.

Amil claims John was unable to correctly identify the chronological order of events and only modern humans (with private interpretation) show the correct chronology.

There is no chronological of events. That is a Premil invention. John saw a number of symbolic visions. These were recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

sovereigngrace · Sep 17, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
The "first resurrection" is not a resurrection of just a few individuals, but the collective resurrection of all the dead in Christ. As for the rest, there is nothing to debate except that the rulership of Christ is not presently being enforced in this present world to the extent that it will be when He returns. Until He returns, He has permitted things, to take their course to a certain extent.

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No:

Your conclusions are based upon an unhealthy obsession with one single highly-debated chapter, located in the most obscure setting in Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon ignoring the explicit climactic detail of repeated Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon a refusal to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Your conclusions are based upon explaining away the clear and explicit with the symbolic and the obscure.

Your conclusions are based upon a faulty hyper-literal approach to Revelation.

Your conclusions are based upon a faulty chronological approach to Revelation.

Timtofly answered the above quite well in 353.

sovereigngrace said:
The reality is: there is no hope after Christ comes, there is no more salvation, there is no second chanc, there are no survivors. Humans are either caught up or caught on. You must invent some imaginary 3rd group unknown to the sacred pages that are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed.

That there are no surviving righteous upon the earth when Christ returns is challenged by the following scriptures:

Matthew 24:22, 25:31-46, Mark 13:20, and Revelation 18:4.

sovereigngrace said:
After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

While the scriptures do speak of a time of normalcy before the unexpected judgment, how can people possibly be going about their daily lives when Christ has told us that before He returns, a time will come when things will be so terrible that the days thereof are shortened for the sake of the elect? He also has said that if He does not return, all life on earth, including humanity, will be destroyed. (Mt. 24:22, Mk. 13:20) If there are no surviving righteous upon the earth in that day, then who are these elect that Jesus says He must return to rescue? I know the elect are not the wicked who are destroyed.

sovereigngrace said:
As the destruction of Noah’s day is given as a powerful picture of the second coming, how many children that were locked outside the ark below the age of accountability at the time of the flood survived?

As the destruction of Sodom is given as an accurate picture of the second coming, how many children that were left in Sodom below the age of accountability at the time of the fiery destruction in Sodom survived?

And that is relevant to this thread because?

sovereigngrace said:
You say some will escape. The Holy Spirit say "they shall not escape.” I go with the Holy Spirit. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for your theory of survivors.

None of the wicked will escape; that is settled, but if the Holy Spirit were really speaking to you, He would have confronted you with the following scriptures:

Matthew 24:22, 25:31-46, Mark 13:20, Revelation, 18:4

While I do not doubt that Christ will come as a thief in the night for the Church, how can His second coming to the earth be unexpected when the wicked are prepared to make war with Him? How does one prepare to meet an enemy they do not expect to come? (Rev. 17:12-14, 19:19)

sovereigngrace said:
If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

The have no reason to feel awkward and pendantic about the second coming because of the following scriptures.

Matthew 24:22, 25:31-46, Mark 13:20, Revelation, 18:4

But many Premils do not believe that the catching up and the second coming are the same event, but that the catching up happens before the judgment of this world, but if there are none who come to Christ after the catching up, then why do the above scriptures not seem to mention the catching up at the second coming?

Contenders Edge · Sep 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

You asked me this before, and I already answered it. Christ is called the first fruits of the resurrection, but if He is the first resurrection, then it is still underway because the dead in Christ have not risen yet. If the first resurrection began with Christ, then it ends with the resurrection of the dead in Christ. There is no separating the two if this position is to be maintained.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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