King of the North, Prince of the Covenant?

Jamdoc · Sep 10, 2020

Regarding Matthew 24 being totally fulfilled in AD70..

parousia70 said:
I have no disagreement with this.

So would you disagree that that body is what our body will be like after resurrection?
1 John 3:2

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

cause what it almost appears that you are saying, is that the world DID end in AD70 and we currently live in the "New Earth" but it's "spiritual", you know, one of these Christians who thinks we just die, go to heaven, and ghosts forever.

BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2020

DavidPT said:
You and I are on the same page with what you submitted here, thus I agree, yet this does not fully address what all I brought up.

You are not on the same page as Luke.

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

...............................................................................................
Everything above the dotted line occurred by the end of 70 AD.

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

We are now in the times of the Gentiles.

Below here is the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

TribulationSigns · Sep 10, 2020

parousia70 said:
@TribulationSigns:
"Show me the Historical Proof!"

@parousia70:
~~"Shows the Historical Proof"~~ (Offered no proof)

DavidPT · Sep 10, 2020

BABerean2 said:
You are not on the same page as Luke.

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:

...............................................................................................
Everything above the dotted line occurred by the end of 70 AD.

and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

We are now in the times of the Gentiles.

Below here is the future Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

As to what you submitted in Luke 21, not all of that only chronologically occurs prior to that dotted line, but not after that dotted line as well.

For example, explain how what's recorded in these verses below can only occur and be fulfilled by 70 Ad, but can't happen in our day and time? If this was only relevant to up to 70 AD, why bring the end of this present age up that early in history when the end wouldn't be for at least 2000 years or more?

Luke 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

In verse 11 it states this---and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. That seems to fit after your dotted line, here---

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

And if we compare that with Matthew 24:29, that verse places events, such as those, not before, nor during the trib of those days, but after.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

But I do at least agree Luke 21:20 likely involves the events leading up to 70 AD, yet there is not one single mention of an abomination of desolation in that context anywhere, while in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, there is.

BABerean2 · Sep 10, 2020

DavidPT said:
But I do at least agree Luke 21:20 likely involves the events leading up to 70 AD, yet there is not one single mention of an abomination of desolation in that context anywhere, while in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, there is.

Then you have cut John 10:22 out of your Bible if you do not want to "understand" what is found in Matthew 24:15.

During 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices.
The same thing would happen during 70 AD.

The only way you can claim Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21 are not parallel Gospels is by ignoring the common word elements found in the verses.

.

DavidPT · Sep 10, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Then you have cut John 10:22 out of your Bible if you do not want to "understand" what is found in Matthew 24:15.

During 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices.
The same thing would happen during 70 AD.

The only way you can claim Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21 are not parallel Gospels is by ignoring the common word elements found in the verses.

.

Unless you have the trib of those days mentioned in Matthew 24:29, which are meaning verses 15-26 in that same chapter, ending in the end of this age rather than in 70 AD or so, your interpretation has just as many issues that you claim mine has. There was no AOD involved in the first century. What does the text plainly say?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Does the text indicate anyone needs to get out of Dodge before even seeing the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place? No. It is only after seeing it that they are then to get out right then, as if a nearby volcano were erupting, and that no one has time to try and gather belongings first. What event in the first century, involving an AOD, was so profound, that when they saw it stand in the holy place, they had to get out right then, with no time to spare for packing belongings first.

BABerean2 · Sep 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
Unless you have the trib of those days mentioned in Matthew 24:29, which are meaning verses 15-26 in that same chapter, ending in the end of this age rather than in 70 AD or so, your interpretation has just as many issues that you claim mine has. There was no AOD involved in the first century. What does the text plainly say?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Does the text indicate anyone needs to get out of Dodge before even seeing the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place? No. It is only after seeing it that they are then to get out right then, as if a nearby volcano were erupting, and that no one has time to try and gather belongings first. What event in the first century, involving an AOD, was so profound, that when they saw it stand in the holy place, they had to get out right then, with no time to spare for packing belongings first.

The early Christians did heed the words of Christ in Matthew 24:15-16 and left the city of Jerusalem before the final siege of 70 AD. They understood because of John 10:22, which most modern Christians ignore.

------------------------------------------

Common word elements, which must be ignored to make your viewpoint work.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Sep 11, 2020

Jamdoc said:
So I have heard some people interpret the King of the North in Daniel 11 to be the son of perdition, based on the "vile man" passages
Daniel 11:21

and in 11:22 he goes into a war

so from this, I gather that the vile man who becomes King of the North kills the prince of the covenant? or am I reading it wrong.

Is the prince of the covenant this guy?

Daniel 9:27

The guy who forms the covenant here performs the abomination of desolation, which would make him the antichrist.

So by my reading the King of the North kills the Prince of the Covenant, the antichrist, which could make sense in that

Revelation 13:3

But I'm not all that sure on the meaning? Cause like I've said some people interpret the King of the North to be the antichrist too.

I would recommend reading this tract that lays out step by step the course of events being described and how we know who is being spoken of in each part. Starting at pg 57.
Shepherd's Rod Message

As far as revelation 13:3 goes the head that is wounded unto death is(I strongly believe) the Papacy being wounded at the onset of the reformation. The wounded head is also the little horn of daniel 7 who uprooted the three other kings before him. The non-descript beast of Daniel 7 covers the time periods of Rome, the ten kings after Rome(ten horns), and then the period of Papal rule up until we see the beast of revelation 13. Here is a visual aid to show the progression of events from Daniel to revelation.

You can find this same chart in the Link.

I hope this helps.

Jamdoc · Sep 11, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The early Christians did heed the words of Christ in Matthew 24:15-16 and left the city of Jerusalem before the final siege of 70 AD. They understood because of John 10:22, which most modern Christians ignore.

------------------------------------------

Common word elements, which must be ignored to make your viewpoint work.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

That's amazing that they were able to read a gospel account before it was written to help them interpret the olivet discourse (afaik the synoptic gospels were written between 41-62AD, and John was written later, and Revelation was written after AD90.. AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem and Revelation 6 parallels Matthew 24).

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King of the North, Prince of the Covenant?

Jamdoc

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BABerean2

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TribulationSigns

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DavidPT

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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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