Why are there still apes?

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
The biblical cosmology had to be *ignored* or rejected (probably more ignored to avoid blasphemy accusations) to develop a more accurate and scientific understanding of what we now call the Solar system and ultimately the rest of the Universe. The old Greek cosmology despite its Earth centering was much more representative of reality than the ancient Israelite cosmology. Indeed, it was the Greek system that was taught to young scholars and from which early modern scholars and early scientists like Copernicus and Galileo argued to replace. The development of modern view of the extraterrestrial domains would not have been harmed *at all* if the biblical cosmology had never been studied (for religious reasons) in the West. (It may have proceeded quicker, but we can't know that.)

No, there is a difference between what the Bible says and how it is interpreted. Then you have the whole other ballgame of how interpretations are handled.

All this is besides my point that science arose from godfearing cultures, Greeks included.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
14,924
11,917
54
USA
✟299,663.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No, there is a difference between what the Bible says and how it is interpreted. Then you have the whole other ballgame of how interpretations are handled.

All this is besides my point that science arose from godfearing cultures, Greeks included.

And again, I make no claims that science arose in non-religious cultures or from non-believers. But rather...

THEOLOGY (the study of the devine) is not the basis of science.

That's a separate claim.

I'm out, fellow apes.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

Greengardener

for love is of God
Site Supporter
May 24, 2019
633
597
MidAtlantic
✟175,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is your second lengthy reply, with a lot of repetition. I will not address everything, but I will hit a few highlights.

First, you seem to think cognition is all or nothing, that one either has it or he doesn't. That is not true. Many animals have minimal levels of cognitive brain function.

The skulls of the earliest hominids we find show evidence of increased cognitive power. They are nowhere close to homo sapiens in brain power.

You also seem to have difficulty understanding the problems with having increased brainpower. Every mother can tell you that it is not easy getting a baby's head down the birth canal. So even if you are God, you cannot simply decide that the next primate to be born will have a full sized human head. The mother who tries to deliver that baby will curse your holy name. So you need a way of getting increased cognitive brainpower, while having mercy on the mothers.

Evolution came up with two tricks to do this. First, it sacrificed some of the sensory portions of the brain to have more cognitive functions. Scientists know this because they have examined the skulls of our ancestors.

There is a downside--animals need their senses.

The second trick is to allow the brain to increase in size after birth. Again, evidence shows this in our ancestors.

Again, there is a downside. This process involves a prolonged infancy where the child is helpless.

But in early hominids, there were enough of advantages to increased cognitive ability that natural selection favored these changes. It was a tradeoff, but it was worth it. For other primates, these changes were not worth it.

Also, you don't seem to recognize the resource needs of the enlarged brain. If a monkey suddenly gave birth to a monkey with a human brain, what good is that? This brain is going to require an immense amount of energy. If there is nobody around to communicate with her, if there is nobody to teach her to make a fire, make a hand axe, or organize a hunting expedition, what is she going to do with a human brain? She is going to eat like a carnivore, and add little to the community. How is she going to get all the meat she craves?

But if evolution is allowed to proceed in a slow path, with the body, brain, and available technologies all developing within a community of hominids, the result is, uh, us!
Hi Merle. You might have mentioned this elsewhere, but I'm just today taking time to catch up on a dozen or so pages of discussion. I wanted to question the brain-size matters idea. There has been a lot in the literature about it, but there was never a real correlation nailed down (like the tent peg Tone mentioned which could hold the tent in the stresses of wind). At least, that's what I remember from reading various scientific articles around it through the years. Do you have an article that currently supports the bigger brain is better idea?

As an aside, each of us gets to choose what we believe in this evolution vs creation discussion and there's just no other logical way around it. It likely won't change the price of rice. Either the creationists decide to trust the "science" of a human we don't even know with the actual evidence that we ourselves probably can't handle or test for ourselves (making it actually hearsay as far as us individually being able to prove it) or the evolutionists have to decide to trust that God operates in science sufficient enough to make this whole system, hold it together, and leave us years of evidence and a book written by various witnesses to speak to how well He does things, without having been there to see how it all came together. With those 2 choices, I would tend to nail my tent down with the pegs of faith in God: the story of Jesus Christ is pretty convincing, the archeological support for the Bible and especially the last 2,000 years of it is pretty convincing, and that fact is that we're here and I would have a really hard time swallowing that this all "happened" without an Instigator - the evidence is too perfect. And too, I'm rather biased that God Who made us in His image had no intention of having us set our brains, like our hats, at the door of this wonderful adventure, regardless the size.

I don't know how much studying you've done in the Bible, but I'd recommend that it's worth it to weigh the evidence. After reading what God told people would make life work, you can read how they didn't do it and how things messed up. The amazing part is realizing how much love God has for His people to keep making a way back to Him. I've met some dedicated parents, but this story played out in 8,000 years or so of history, is honestly really compelling. Granted, that might not change the price of rice, but it might make a difference on whether I love my neighbor enough to share what rice I have. It's just a thought.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
And again, I make no claims that science arose in non-religious cultures or from non-believers. But rather...

THEOLOGY (the study of the devine) is not the basis of science.

That's a separate claim.

I'm out, fellow apes.

I stand by my statement that science would not be, apart from consideration of deity.

*Nice monkeying around with ya!
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Found this lil guy at work today, thought it fitting to post here:

IMG_20200909_121519_5.jpg
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you have an article that currently supports the bigger brain is better idea?
Chimpanzees and our earliest ancestors had about 500cc of brain capacity. Humans have about triple that. If I had to choose, I would go with the 1500cc model. Which would you choose?

brain-size.jpg

As an aside, each of us gets to choose what we believe in this evolution vs creation discussion and there's just no other logical way around it.
And we each get to decide what we will believe about atoms, mechanics, diseases, and medicine?

Gosh, are you sure we get to choose? I always science should be based on what is real.

It likely won't change the price of rice.
If we had never figured out evolution, much of what what we now know about biology would be missing. That would have set back science. And yes, that would have weakened the green revolution, and yes, that could well have drastically changed the price of rice.

Either the creationists decide to trust the "science" of a human we don't even know with the actual evidence that we ourselves probably can't handle or test for ourselves (making it actually hearsay as far as us individually being able to prove it)
Nobody is asking you to trust science with evidence that cannot be handled. There is plenty of science out there that is well documented, with evidence that can be handled.


or the evolutionists have to decide to trust that God operates in science sufficient enough to make this whole system, hold it together, and leave us years of evidence and a book written by various witnesses to speak to how well He does things, without having been there to see how it all came together.
Except much of the story written in your book is clearly not so. People were here far longer than 8000 years.

And the earth was not flooded in Noah's time.

And donkeys don't talk.


And too, I'm rather biased that God Who made us in His image had no intention of having us set our brains, like our hats, at the door of this wonderful adventure, regardless the size.
I am glad to hear that you like to keep your brain engaged in this.

Now that your brain is in gear, can you tell me how it is that we have found these skulls? Are they not representative of our species' history?
skulls.GIF
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

April_Rose

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2020
3,815
2,458
34
Ohio
✟23,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Engaged
LOL -- I should have said "peaked".





I can imagine that's probably how Isaac met his wife.






Hannah: Hey Isaac,.. if you talk science to me again I'll go nibble on your ear.


Isaac: *Totally aroused* :D











 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The actual mutation that evolution hands to a species is totally different. This is the part where I see the guided part of evolution sneaking in, this is the part where I see that the game has been rigged in our favor. I understand that we were in a position to benefit from the mutation, but I just see the mutation as being much too beneficial and stacking the deck way too much in our favor.
I figured you were going to get a guide into your evolutionary process somewhere. And it is not hard to figure out who you think that guide is. You look for a huge jump in evolution, a huge change that could only be done by your guide.

But what I see is a lot of transitions. The transitions come slowly: upright posture; use of hands with crude tools; increased cognitive function (with little increase in brain size); brain growth after birth; fire making skills; loss of hair; increased brain size; cooking skills; reduced jaw size; verbal skills; mathematical skills; etc. Little by little, one step at a time. The whole process takes millions of years. And given enough time, this all adds up.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

Jok

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2019
774
658
47
Indiana
✟42,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
Not quite sure what you mean here, but all mammals (basically all vertebrates) have the same brain structures and architecture, and use the same structures for broadly the same purposes. There may be huge variations in the size of the structures, according to the importance of their function to that creature.
Yes if this commonality extends to all mammals and vertebrates then I’m definitely leaning heavily towards believing that the empty skull can give accurate descriptions, but I was just entertaining the critical skeptic inside of me with that comment, it’s like how you said this;
Birds are far smarter than their brain size would indicate, but they have much smaller neurons, more densely packed in.
That’s where my thoughts were at when I said that, a part of me thinks that since we have no access to a physical brain of early hominids who’s to say that for whatever the reason the hominid brain may have been more miniature yet equally as powerful back in the early days (like perhaps neurons enlarging over time, or possibly the region that is now in the forehead area was more sunken back with the rest of the brain matter in the past). We simply don’t know 100% because we have no access to an actual brain of early hominids.
Good and bad or fair and unfair are human value judgements. The only 'judgement' evolution makes is on reproductive success.
Good and bad as far as maintaining a healthy balance. I think that a healthy balance is evolution’s norm. So I am calling “bad” a drastic deviation from a norm. On top of humans being able to outsmart all of our rivals we also stand alone in our ability to throw weapons too (spears, slingshots, etc), making the drastic advantages even more extreme (in those early LOCAL populations).
Evolution does affect predator/prey relations in stable environments because predator and prey co-evolve; I'm not sure what you mean by 'under the jurisdiction' of evolution.
I mean that usually when I point out the strange world domination of Homo Sapiens the reply that I get is that evolution only cares about local conditions, so I was saying hey but here we ARE talking about local conditions, Homo Sapiens are being allowed way too much domination locally as well as globally.

This is our core impasse, I see human domination as being a completely clear as day indicator that nature has unfairly stacked the deck in humanity’s favor (guided), which points to humans being special. Whereas you see domination of humans as simply forming a new evolutionary paradigm that you now call the evolved “Normal.” IMO it becomes unfalsifiable because whatever happens in reality it will just become a self proof of evolution. Anything that happens will result in the explanation that that’s obviously how evolution works because as we can see that’s what happened. It verifies itself by default.

There have always been apex predators who dominated that is true, but humans go way beyond that. Apex predators never had the power to cause the extinction of so many other species. I think that our mutation broke the rules of what evolution was up until that period of time, it ripped up the instruction book and made up a new game. But for you that is an illogical thing to say because the pattern of how reality plays out REVEALS evolution.
and with the development of molecular biology, much of the work is bottom-up integration and clarification. If you don't understand the principles at lower levels, it's hard to see how the higher level systems emerge.
The molecular level IMO makes “Evolution” in general sound misleading because things did not start at total disorder, instead bits of prepackaged intelligence where present in the primitive Earth from the beginning. How ever polymers might have swooshed together in that primordial soup, once these things connected in certain molecular ways they just started self assembling and doing things all by themselves. And a lot of people think RNA was there from the total beginning. The analogy of an airplane forming by chance if a tornado tears through a junkyard is a bad analogy when we look at molecules and their building blocks. These bits of legos that were in the Earth from day one “Go to work” on their own when they come into contact with each other! There is a super intelligence written into the fabric of Earth. The potentiality of human cognition was present in the Earth from the very start (a cause can not give to its effect what it does not have to give).
Which is 'the' mutation you are talking about?
Self awareness and creative thinking!
Many mutations are not survivable and will result in miscarriage (spontaneous miscarriage is, overall, more common than live birth). You can see many obvious instances of disadvantageous mutations in the population at large - is it surprising that there are also some beneficial ones?
Not all all. I’m not saying that I take issue with beneficial vs disadvantaged mutations within a species, I am saying that I find that the mutations given to hominids are guided favoritism to take dominion over the Earth.

Ultimately, though, the fossil record is just another line of evidence supporting the ToE - the theory predicts the pattern we should expect to see in the fossil record and the fossil record matches it exactly. The theory has been used to predict where (geographically) and when (in the timeline) we should expect to find certain species (e.g. particular transitionals) and they have been found as predicted.
How many hominid fossils do we have, and how many hominid categories do we have? If the amount of fossils that we have outnumber the amount of categories by an astonishing rate doesn’t that argue against slow and steady progression? We might see a Homo Erectus that looks slightly off or a Homo Sapien that looks slightly off, but are there any fossils that have people asking “Is this a Homo Sapien or a Homo Erectus?”
Other lines of evolutionary evidence are far stronger indicators of the continuity of lineage evolution; for example, the ERVs in our genome - bits of viral genetic code that periodically become permanently incorporated into our genetic code. Not only do we share many of them with other primates (i.e. the same bit of viral code in the same place in the genome), but the pattern of similarities and differences of these insertions exactly matches the relationship hierarchy indicated by the fossil record and other evidence and predicted by the ToE.
I agree. But I think that it is a different type of evidence. That evidence is a stronger evidence THAT ToE is accurate. However they do not give us that snapshot in time that the fossils give us. They are silent to make any inferences about rates of how fast evolutionary jumps took place.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jok

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2019
774
658
47
Indiana
✟42,261.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
I figured you were going to get a guide into your evolutionary process somewhere. And it is not hard to figure out who you think that guide is. You look for a huge jump in evolution, a huge change that could only be done by your guide.
#1 it’s not like I’m trying to be sneaky or stealthy, yes I think that God can and does give nudges to evolution, yes God is the guide that I am proposing. #2 I am not claiming that because I believe in God I get to make up any evolutionary rate that I want and then just say that God did it, what I am saying is that I believe that God guides evolution sometimes, and because I see way more numbers of hominid fossils than I see hominid categories I think that that points towards God putting evolution into hyperdrive at times.
But what I see is a lot of transitions. The transitions come slowly: upright posture; use of hands with crude tools; increased cognitive function (with little increase in brain size); brain growth after birth; fire making skills; loss of hair; increased brain size; cooking skills; reduced jaw size; verbal skills; mathematical skills; etc. Little by little, one step at a time. The whole process takes millions of years. And given enough time, this all adds up.
Hey maybe you and @FrumiousBandersnatch
have the wrong idea here and think that I am being overconfident & arrogant, not at all, I would probably bet money that the both of you know the data better than I do. I’m simply in a position where my current understanding of the fossil record is showing me that we have a ratio of fossils to fossil categories that has me rejecting a constantly slow progression theory. I’m not opposed to the idea that better knowledge of the fossil record might change my mind. For instance - maybe huge chunks of the fossils that we have available are all concentrated from very few excavation sites so maybe the huge majority of our fossils are from the same time & place. I just totally made that up as a possible reason of something that would be able to change my mind; my point is that I admit I’m no expert with the fossil record and that I’m flexible to changing my position if there’s something that I’m not seeing.

However, I am also no stranger to people yielding to a consensus story simply for the sake of yielding to a consensus story. And that I will not do!

I have actually tried to dig up some information several times this week since getting pulled into this thread, but I have had constant interruptions (just life happening). I would like to get a better understanding of the fossils that we have (detailed information about locations of each fossil, numbers of each of the fossils associated with each hominid, etc etc)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,109
51,508
Guam
✟4,909,160.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think Apes are a creation of God and have glory just like any life.

That being said, I think that Apes are animals, beasts made for human.
Solomon had apes imported, probably for study.

1 Kings 10:22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

His conclusion?

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Notice he calls evolution an "invention," not a "discovery" as is taught in academia?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Solomon had apes imported, probably for study.

1 Kings 10:22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

His conclusion?

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Notice he calls evolution an "invention," not a "discovery" as is taught in academia?

Interesting, if Solomon studied apes out of curiosity, because, of their similarities, this would make Darwin's story unoriginal.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,109
51,508
Guam
✟4,909,160.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Interesting, if Solomon studied apes out of curiosity, because, of their similarities, this would make Darwin's story unoriginal.
Considering whose mind evolution comes from, I agree.

Evidently God had Solomon put a stop to prescience evolution before it got started.

Or at least stunted its growth.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,109
51,508
Guam
✟4,909,160.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
  • Like
Reactions: April_Rose
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,261
8,057
✟326,642.00
Faith
Atheist
That’s where my thoughts were at when I said that, a part of me thinks that since we have no access to a physical brain of early hominids who’s to say that for whatever the reason the hominid brain may have been more miniature yet equally as powerful back in the early days (like perhaps neurons enlarging over time, or possibly the region that is now in the forehead area was more sunken back with the rest of the brain matter in the past). We simply don’t know 100% because we have no access to an actual brain of early hominids.
True, but we have no reason to suppose that was the case, and since other contemporary primate brains have similar neuron sizes, it seems unlikely.

Good and bad as far as maintaining a healthy balance. I think that a healthy balance is evolution’s norm. So I am calling “bad” a drastic deviation from a norm.
What is a 'healthy' balance? healthy and balanced in what way? There are plenty of examples of 'boom and bust' in populations that grow rapidly until their resources are exhausted and then die-off en masse before repeating the cycle. Similar boom & bust cycles occur in many predator-prey relations. Is that a 'healthy balance'?

I mean that usually when I point out the strange world domination of Homo Sapiens the reply that I get is that evolution only cares about local conditions, so I was saying hey but here we ARE talking about local conditions, Homo Sapiens are being allowed way too much domination locally as well as globally.
I'm not familiar with that characterisation of evolution - evolution doesn't 'care', it happens to populations, which, while they may move around the world, must, by definition, remain local enough for the members to interbreed.

As for human domination, there's no concept in evolutionary biology of organisms being 'allowed' or 'denied' any behaviours. There may or may not be natural constraints on what they can do. Humans dominate in many ways, which may be beneficial for some organisms, detrimental to others, and seems to be damaging ecosystems and reducing overall wildlife. We may judge this as bad for us and the organisms we need and like, but mass extinctions are periodic features of life on Earth, and it's not the first time one group of organisms were the driving force behind a mass extinction.

I see human domination as being a completely clear as day indicator that nature has unfairly stacked the deck in humanity’s favor (guided), which points to humans being special.
We're certainly exceptionally destructive. Your anthropocentric bias is understandable.

Whereas you see domination of humans as simply forming a new evolutionary paradigm that you now call the evolved “Normal.”
No, that's not the case. Please don't try to tell me what I think.

I think that our mutation broke the rules of what evolution was up until that period of time, it ripped up the instruction book and made up a new game.
There is no evidence for any teleological 'rules' of evolution, or that evolution was 'up to' anything. It's a very simple process with complex ramifications.

But for you that is an illogical thing to say because the pattern of how reality plays out REVEALS evolution.
Again, please don't try to tell me what I think. Both the concept and the theory of evolution are based on observation and experiment.

The molecular level IMO makes “Evolution” in general sound misleading because things did not start at total disorder, instead bits of prepackaged intelligence where present in the primitive Earth from the beginning.
What was this 'prepackaged intelligence'?

How ever polymers might have swooshed together in that primordial soup, once these things connected in certain molecular ways they just started self assembling and doing things all by themselves.
Self-assembly is a feature of chemistry; atoms assemble into molecules, molecules combine and form ordered structures. It's mainly the result of the interactions of electromagnetic charges on atoms & molecules.

There is a super intelligence written into the fabric of Earth. The potentiality of human cognition was present in the Earth from the very start (a cause can not give to its effect what it does not have to give).
Of course, that's trivially true in hindsight.

Self awareness and creative thinking!
There's no particular mutation for self-awareness and creative thinking - many animals show signs of self-awareness, and even more show creative thinking. We happen to have specialised in flexible cognitive abilities, so we are extremely proficient in that respect.

I am saying that I find that the mutations given to hominids are guided favoritism to take dominion over the Earth.
I guess you would say that, given your beliefs; but what evidence is there to support that, besides your personal incredulity?

Bacteria are far more numerous and thrive on (and in and above) much more of the Earth than humans do - some would say they have the true claim to dominion - although viruses have the greater numbers.

How many hominid fossils do we have, and how many hominid categories do we have? If the amount of fossils that we have outnumber the amount of categories by an astonishing rate doesn’t that argue against slow and steady progression? We might see a Homo Erectus that looks slightly off or a Homo Sapien that looks slightly off, but are there any fossils that have people asking “Is this a Homo Sapien or a Homo Erectus?”
I don't follow your logic about progression; on the second point, no, not really - those fossils are from different times - Homo erectus is far earlier than Homo sapiens. Fossils found in the intervening period broadly show a transitional sequence of characteristics.

However they do not give us that snapshot in time that the fossils give us. They are silent to make any inferences about rates of how fast evolutionary jumps took place.
Well, not necessarily; if you make some simple assumptions, you can estimate the rates of change. For example, you can assume that over the last couple of million years, the mutation rate was fairly stable; one can assume the rate of ERV insertions was fairly stable, and so-on; then you can match the predictions from molecular biology with the fossil record, assuming that the fossils we have found are random samples of the lineage. You can also correlate these calculations with archaeological site evidence of cultural artefacts and activity, even when no fossils are available.
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: Jok
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0