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Why are there still apes?

Hans Blaster

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Can't we all just get along? There's a pandemic, rioting, and in a few days it'll be the anniversary of very tragic event. Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? Why can't we all just be friends?

Maybe there are more important things in the world to argue about, but I came to the board to discuss science and when people can't grasp that since humans *are* apes, the evolution of humans from earlier apes doesn't eliminate apes from the world, nor does it prevent other apes (chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas) from existing at the same time as us human-style of apes.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Lol, may as well ask my cat, probably has more intelligent answers. ^_^

Sure, cats are smart. Smarter than dogs. But, I've seen Bill Nye interact with people and explain science, so I'm pretty sure he's better at science education than your cat.
 
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Jok

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In primates, cranial volume is important, but also how that volume is distributed - the medial-frontal cortex and forebrain are the areas of particular interest in terms of cognitive ability, e.g. intelligence, planning, etc.
I mostly side with this, I just think there’s always that possibility that devoted brain regions may have differed in earlier hominids (but that’s more of me playing devil’s advocate).
Quite a lot - not only the relative sizes of brain as a whole, but the inside of the skull has a record of the relative sizes (and sometimes the convolutions) of the various brain areas.
The biggest curveball for me with the consensus view that bigger equals smarter is the Neanderthals having a 20% larger brain than us. It might be that in a broad sense relative size equals more intelligence, but that sometimes the smaller brain could be more powerful per volume, therefore it might be a push.
The more severe the conditions, the stronger the selection pressures and the more rapid the evolution.
Yes, as you can tell I most definitely don’t have a problem with rapid periods of evolution, perhaps the only area where we differ with that is me thinking it could be way way more rapid than you think it could be.
Other species either did not have the characteristics that made self-aware cognition a major selective advantage, or the conditions that made it an advantage didn't persist long enough.

It's 'worth it' if it provides a reproductive advantage in some way. It was worth it for at least 6 to 8 hominid species that co-existed over roughly the same time frame. Some survived longer than others; we survived them all. It's not clear why the others dies out, but even modern humans were down to around 5,000 to 10,000 individuals at one time, so it would seem that we were extremely lucky. It may be that we were smart enough to survive when the others didn't, but it may just have been random chance.
There is no greater advantage imaginable than being able to outsmart all of your rivals! The opposite side of the coin can’t be ignored, if you gift one species with a property that is way TOO GOOD you are indirectly crushing the other species with a huge disadvantage (a virtual negative property). The random variation that was given to hominids handed us domination over the planet as I have mentioned before, but if one is to argue that evolution only works locally then it’s still a problem because it allowed hominids to unfairly dominate locally too. And isn’t everyone supposed to be in agreement that local predator/prey balances ARE under the jurisdiction of evolution?
Evolution doesn't 'feel' anything. It's the process by which small advantages promoting reproductive success tend to spread through a population.
I just see the entire biosphere as a layered circle of life that starts at the level of chemistry, then we eventually make it up to the cellular level, tissue level, organs, organisms, populations, competition between other species, ecosystems, all the way to the entire biosphere. Each level has properties that emerge that can not be predictable from the lower levels. This is how our world works, all an interconnected system of emergent hierarchical levels. Why is there always a need to erect this evolutionary brick wall above the level of population and local species competition, and then claim that evolution can’t see over that wall?

A distinction should also be made between evolutionary process, and the ACTUAL variation being given to a species. The evolutionary “process” is a numbers game, those in the population who do not RECEIVE the beneficial mutation eventually die off after enough generations pass by. Not to be confused with WHAT the mutation actually is! The actual mutation that evolution hands to a species is totally different. This is the part where I see the guided part of evolution sneaking in, this is the part where I see that the game has been rigged in our favor. I understand that we were in a position to benefit from the mutation, but I just see the mutation as being much too beneficial and stacking the deck way too much in our favor.

I understand that as an atheist you think that the Biblical authors simply made up stories to describe the way that the world already was when they said “And God gave us dominion over all the Earth.” But as an atheist it should still strike you as very strange that the reality in which we find ourselves reveals “And a mutation gave hominids dominion over all the Earth.”
We only have random snapshots of the evolutionary sequence. The decision to name a particular example in the sequence the first modern human is a judgement call - you see that a particular fossil has almost all the distinguishing characteristics of contemporary humans, and earlier fossils either lack some of those characteristics or has them in less well-developed forms. There will almost certainly be fossils prior to that 'first modern human' that could deserve the label, but we only have access to a tiny number overall.
I get it that this is the consensus story of the fossil record, but I just don’t see the fossil record as being convincing enough to back up that constantly slow progression story. I see the differences as just tiny differences that are still well within their hominid categories. I know that fossils aren’t too plentiful, but I feel like there’s enough of them for me to side with very very rapid leaps of evolutionary jumps. However I won’t consider myself dogmatically opposed to changing my opinion on rates of evolutionary jumps. For one I have never physically been to fossil museums where I can get up close and personal to many of them, and secondly more fossils can always be discovered.
 
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Strathos

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For one I have never physically been to fossil museums where I can get up close and personal to many of them

I visited one just before the pandemic broke out. They had a full-size complete dinosaur skeleton as the main attraction. Although it was a juvenile, it was still as big as a bus.
 
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Tone

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Yes, of course I have, but like the theology of the Abrahamic religions, I really don't care about it. It is dull and boring.

Yeah, I've had my fill of it too.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Why do evolutionists believe that rejecting evolution is rejecting science itself?
They don't. It's the creationists who reject evolution because "it's not science" who are rejecting science. You cannot argue that the scientific theory of evolution is not science without rejecting the science that supports it. Similarly there are those who reject the science supporting evolution. You don't get to pick which parts of science are true and which are not based on nothing more than religious dogma. If you reject the science of evolution you must reject all science.

Those who reject evolution for other reasons are not accused of being anti-science. Perhaps you should take time to read what creationists claim before you falsely accuse others.
 
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AV1611VET

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You think the people who developed science were godless?
One theologian thinks godly science piqued with Isaac Newton, then started a downhill trend.
 
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Jimmy D

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Why do evolutionists believe that rejecting evolution is rejecting science itself?

YECs just reject physics, geology, biochemistry, biology, astronomy, geochemistry, but no, they're cool with science.
 
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AV1611VET

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But the biblical cosmology, which is basically Babylonian cosmology,
No, it isn't.

Babylonia doesn't set well with God.

Why do you think God called Abram's family out of Babylon?

Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Other societies developed the rudiments of scientific discovery and process.
I like your word choice.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I mostly side with this, I just think there’s always that possibility that devoted brain regions may have differed in earlier hominids (but that’s more of me playing devil’s advocate).
Not quite sure what you mean here, but all mammals (basically all vertebrates) have the same brain structures and architecture, and use the same structures for broadly the same purposes. There may be huge variations in the size of the structures, according to the importance of their function to that creature.

The biggest curveball for me with the consensus view that bigger equals smarter is the Neanderthals having a 20% larger brain than us. It might be that in a broad sense relative size equals more intelligence, but that sometimes the smaller brain could be more powerful per volume, therefore it might be a push.
Modern humans a somewhat smaller than our ancestors of those times, and the Neanderthals had larger bodies with larger eyes, both of which typically require a larger brain. A bigger brain doesn't necessarily mean smarter, although it seems Neanderthals has similar smarts.

Birds are far smarter than their brain size would indicate, but they have much smaller neurons, more densely packed in.

Yes, as you can tell I most definitely don’t have a problem with rapid periods of evolution, perhaps the only area where we differ with that is me thinking it could be way way more rapid than you think it could be.
It depends on the environment, the population size, the time to reproductive maturity, and a raft of lesser considerations. It's been a long time since I yawned my way through population genetics calculations, so I only have a rough idea these days, but there are obvious constraints on how fast populations can change.

There is no greater advantage imaginable than being able to outsmart all of your rivals! The opposite side of the coin can’t be ignored, if you gift one species with a property that is way TOO GOOD you are indirectly crushing the other species with a huge disadvantage (a virtual negative property). The random variation that was given to hominids handed us domination over the planet as I have mentioned before, but if one is to argue that evolution only works locally then it’s still a problem because it allowed hominids to unfairly dominate locally too.
Good and bad or fair and unfair are human value judgements. The only 'judgement' evolution makes is on reproductive success.

And isn’t everyone supposed to be in agreement that local predator/prey balances ARE under the jurisdiction of evolution?
Evolution does affect predator/prey relations in stable environments because predator and prey co-evolve; I'm not sure what you mean by 'under the jurisdiction' of evolution.

I just see the entire biosphere as a layered circle of life that starts at the level of chemistry, then we eventually make it up to the cellular level, tissue level, organs, organisms, populations, competition between other species, ecosystems, all the way to the entire biosphere. Each level has properties that emerge that can not be predictable from the lower levels. This is how our world works, all an interconnected system of emergent hierarchical levels.
Sure, I agree.

Why is there always a need to erect this evolutionary brick wall above the level of population and local species competition, and then claim that evolution can’t see over that wall?
I don't see any brick wall; but evolutionary processes become a lot more complex and indirect at the ecosystem level and above, and with the development of molecular biology, much of the work is bottom-up integration and clarification. If you don't understand the principles at lower levels, it's hard to see how the higher level systems emerge.

A distinction should also be made between evolutionary process, and the ACTUAL variation being given to a species.
The evolutionary process is how species change. Variations between species are instances of the results of evolution.

The evolutionary “process” is a numbers game, those in the population who do not RECEIVE the beneficial mutation eventually die off after enough generations pass by. ... The actual mutation that evolution hands to a species is totally different. This is the part where I see the guided part of evolution sneaking in, this is the part where I see that the game has been rigged in our favor. I understand that we were in a position to benefit from the mutation, but I just see the mutation as being much too beneficial and stacking the deck way too much in our favor.
Which is 'the' mutation you are talking about? Many mutations are not survivable and will result in miscarriage (spontaneous miscarriage is, overall, more common than live birth). You can see many obvious instances of disadvantageous mutations in the population at large - is it surprising that there are also some beneficial ones?

I understand that as an atheist you think that the Biblical authors simply made up stories to describe the way that the world already was when they said “And God gave us dominion over all the Earth.” But as an atheist it should still strike you as very strange that the reality in which we find ourselves reveals “And a mutation gave hominids dominion over all the Earth.”
It doesn't seem strange at all - if humanity hadn't survived the population bottleneck ~70,000 years ago, things would be very different. Whether another similarly intelligent species would evolve if we vanished, it's impossible to say, but there was a variety of candidates when we were becoming human, and I suspect that most primates today have the potential in the right conditions.

I get it that this is the consensus story of the fossil record, but I just don’t see the fossil record as being convincing enough to back up that constantly slow progression story. I see the differences as just tiny differences that are still well within their hominid categories. I know that fossils aren’t too plentiful, but I feel like there’s enough of them for me to side with very very rapid leaps of evolutionary jumps. However I won’t consider myself dogmatically opposed to changing my opinion on rates of evolutionary jumps. For one I have never physically been to fossil museums where I can get up close and personal to many of them, and secondly more fossils can always be discovered.
If you follow the detailed changes in fossils through the history of their lineages, it's clear enough that they're sequential. Ultimately, though, the fossil record is just another line of evidence supporting the ToE - the theory predicts the pattern we should expect to see in the fossil record and the fossil record matches it exactly. The theory has been used to predict where (geographically) and when (in the timeline) we should expect to find certain species (e.g. particular transitionals) and they have been found as predicted.

Other lines of evolutionary evidence are far stronger indicators of the continuity of lineage evolution; for example, the ERVs in our genome - bits of viral genetic code that periodically become permanently incorporated into our genetic code. Not only do we share many of them with other primates (i.e. the same bit of viral code in the same place in the genome), but the pattern of similarities and differences of these insertions exactly matches the relationship hierarchy indicated by the fossil record and other evidence and predicted by the ToE.
 
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Hans Blaster

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No, it isn't.

Babylonia doesn't set well with God.

Why do you think God called Abram's family out of Babylon?

Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Where do you think the Israelite priests and scholars learned all that dome and firmament stuff but in Babylonia during the captivity?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Whether you believe it incorrect or not, it definitely set the framework.

The biblical cosmology had to be *ignored* or rejected (probably more ignored to avoid blasphemy accusations) to develop a more accurate and scientific understanding of what we now call the Solar system and ultimately the rest of the Universe. The old Greek cosmology despite its Earth centering was much more representative of reality than the ancient Israelite cosmology. Indeed, it was the Greek system that was taught to young scholars and from which early modern scholars and early scientists like Copernicus and Galileo argued to replace. The development of modern view of the extraterrestrial domains would not have been harmed *at all* if the biblical cosmology had never been studied (for religious reasons) in the West. (It may have proceeded quicker, but we can't know that.)
 
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AV1611VET

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Where do you think the Israelite priests and scholars learned all that dome and firmament stuff but in Babylonia during the captivity?
Ya ... and they probably laughed it off.
 
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