Magic in Judaism and in Christianity

Oseas said:

You say "That one works for me". OK, Scripture describes how he is, and what he will do, as follows:

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I'm just of the mind set that anything to do with having God as ones' reality, like Jesus did, will be esoteric in nature. And having God as a reality in life works for me as well. I don't see anything that would counters that.

Robban said:

Abracadbra, a click here a click there and hundreds or thousands of replies.
As in the days of Noah, a flood, but a flood of information.
Which can easily lead to confusion, chaos unless filtered.

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Yes, there will be a flood of messages, with persecutions, against the true people of God, as was in the ancient Inquisition, even now in the END of the times, as soon as manifest himself the false messiah, a former Cherub, the son of perdition, the MAN of sin, the head of Antichrist's Empire that will be established in the earth in the days ahead.

Robban said:

As in the days of Noah, a flood, but a flood of information.

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Speaking of a flood, Yes, as was prophesied, there will be a flood of messages, with persecutions, against the true people of God, as was in the ancient Inquisition, even now in the END of the times, as follow:

Revelation 12:v.15 - 16
15 And the serpent cast out of his MOUTH water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth (the true Israel, 144000 -Revelation 7) helped the woman, and the earth-the true nation of Israel -144K - opened her MOUTH, and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon - the false messiah of the Jews- cast out of his MOUTH.

Revelation 12:v.7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. -Aleluiaaa!-
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Robban said:

Which can easily lead to confusion, chaos unless filtered.

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Those are your words, but Scriptures call that picture of hell, or lake of fire.

dlamberth said:

I'm just of the mind set that anything to do with having God as ones' reality, like Jesus did, will be esoteric in nature.

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Then you know not God, the God of gods.

dlamberth said:

And having God as a reality in life works for me as well. I don't see anything that would counters that.

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First of all, it is necessary to have the Spirit of God to speak of God.

Oseas said:

First of all, it is necessary to have the Spirit of God to speak of God.

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That would be esoteric, wouldn't it?

dlamberth said:

That would be esoteric, wouldn't it?

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No, the Most High and Almighty God has nothing to do with esoterism.

By your words, your esoteric god is the great Dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world. By the way, he will manifest himself soon in Jerusalem as a messiah, as prophesied Isaiah, and Ezekiel, among others, and certainly you will worship your esoteric god in accord your own words.

Oseas said:

No, the Most High and Almighty God has nothing to do with esoterism.

By your words, your esoteric god is the great Dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world. By the way, he will manifest himself soon in Jerusalem as a messiah, as prophesied Isaiah, and Ezekiel, among others, and certainly you will worship your esoteric god in accord your own words.

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What do you consider the esoteric to be? I think we're talking about different things.

For me, I'd think that the spiritual connection that Jesus has and is aware of with the Father as well as the Spirit of God would be pretty esoteric in nature. I don't see what would be deceptive about that at all.

Oseas said:

Yes, there will be a flood of messages, with persecutions, against the true people of God, as was in the ancient Inquisition, even now in the END of the times, as soon as manifest himself the false messiah, a former Cherub, the son of perdition, the MAN of sin, the head of Antichrist's Empire that will be established in the earth in the days ahead.


Speaking of a flood, Yes, as was prophesied, there will be a flood of messages, with persecutions, against the true people of God, as was in the ancient Inquisition, even now in the END of the times, as follow:

Revelation 12:v.15 - 16
15 And the serpent cast out of his MOUTH water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth (the true Israel, 144000 -Revelation 7) helped the woman, and the earth-the true nation of Israel -144K - opened her MOUTH, and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon - the false messiah of the Jews- cast out of his MOUTH.

Revelation 12:v.7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. -Aleluiaaa!-
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Those are your words, but Scriptures call that picture of hell, or lake of fire.

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Confusion is a strategy which is useful in wartime.

Making tanks out of plywood and mounting them on top of the cliffs.
The attacking pilots turned back and reported,

"They are armed to the teeth."

Robban said:

Confusion is a strategy which is useful in wartime.

Making tanks out of plywood and mounting them on top of the cliffs.
The attacking pilots turned back and reported,

"They are armed to the teeth."

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Concrete example,

judges 7:19-22

Robban said:

Confusion is a strategy which is useful in wartime.
Making tanks out of plywood and mounting them on top of the cliffs.
The attacking pilots turned back and reported,

"They are armed to the teeth."

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Oh, please, what you said signifies nothing, it is irrelevant. See, Satan is the source of confusion, by the way, his world in which you live is full or rather infested of confusion, and he is also an exceedingly devilish and mortal strategist. One of the most terrible strategy of him is to disguise as an angel of light, it means an expert on the Torah, or the Scriptures in general, and he deceives the world as a whole. By the way, the astute Satan's spirit tempeted JESUS even through Scriptures when he cited Psalms 91:v.11.

Yeah, Satan is one of the most terrible strategist mainly when he disguises as an angel of light, thus, it is not a surprise when his ministers, ministers of Satan, also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ, or Pastors, and Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Rabbi, and so on, whose end will be according to their evil works and satanic lies.

The war in this great Day of God Almighty, that is the battle of Armageddon, is against three unclean spirits like frogs - a SATANIC TRINITY - that come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon-the old Serpent, also called Satan and Devil-, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast of sea-the idolater Papacy and the Great harlot which rides upon the Beast-the RCC, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet-the false messiah of the Jews, an IMPOSTOR, like Barabbas, for they are the spirits of devils, which go forth unto the rulers of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to this battle of this great Day of God Almighty.

Get ready. The Most High God will destroy them which destroy the earth, and has already started first of all by pestilence sent against the whole world. There will be famine, and earthqueakes in divers places, these earthquakes are specific to happen now in the end of the times, in divers places. Get ready.

Oseas said:

Oh, please, what you said signifies nothing, it is irrelevant. See, Satan is the source of confusion, by the way, his world in which you live is full or rather infested of confusion, and he is also an exceedingly devilish and mortal strategist. One of the most terrible strategy of him is to disguise as an angel of light, it means an expert on the Torah, or the Scriptures in general, and he deceives the world as a whole. By the way, the astute Satan's spirit tempeted JESUS even through Scriptures when he cited Psalms 91:v.11.

Yeah, Satan is one of the most terrible strategist mainly when he disguises as an angel of light, thus, it is not a surprise when his ministers, ministers of Satan, also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ, or Pastors, and Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Rabbi, and so on, whose end will be according to their evil works and satanic lies.

The war in this great Day of God Almighty, that is the battle of Armageddon, is against three unclean spirits like frogs - a SATANIC TRINITY - that come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon-the old Serpent, also called Satan and Devil-, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast of sea-the idolater Papacy and the Great harlot which rides upon the Beast-the RCC, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet-the false messiah of the Jews, an IMPOSTOR, like Barabbas, for they are the spirits of devils, which go forth unto the rulers of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to this battle of this great Day of God Almighty.

Get ready. The Most High God will destroy them which destroy the earth, and has already started first of all by pestilence sent against the whole world. There will be famine, and earthqueakes in divers places, these earthquakes are specific to happen now in the end of the times, in divers places. Get ready.

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Have you been shown these things or have you just read about them in a book?

For the life of me I just don't understand the Satanic focus that some bring to this sub-forum. It's like their whole world would collapse with out Satan and no meaning in life could prevail with out that image. When I look at the OP, this all seems like dark magic to me where the spirit of Satan is conjured up to make sense of life. I just don't get it.

But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of This Age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

• 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

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Here's some references to the Aerial Toll Houses / Aerial Realm in-between Heaven and Earth where I believe the bad angels and devil hang out and try to mess with people on their departure to Heaven :


1. In The Octoechos we find a clear reference to the tollhouses. The eigth canticle from the canon at Matins reads, :

"O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."

and

2. the Octoechos, from the Canon for the dead:
"When my soul desires to separate its bodily ties and depart from life, do Thou appear to me, O Mistress, and destroy the councils of the bodiless enemies, crush their jaws of those who seek to devour me: that I may without hindrance pass the princes of darkness, standing in the air, O Bride of God, "(Tone 2, Sat. Ode 9, Tr. 16)



3. In the Canon of Supplication at the Parting of the Soul in The Great Book of Needs are the following references to the struggle of a soul passing through the toll-houses:

"Count me worthy to pass, unhindered, by the persecutor, the prince of the air, the tyrant, him that stands guard in the dread pathways, and the false accusation of these, as I depart from earth." (Ode 4, p. 77).
"Do thou count me worthy to escape the hordes of bodiless barbarians, and rise through the aerial depths and enter into Heaven…" (Ode 8, p. 81).
"[W]hen I come to die, do thou banish far from me the commander of the bitter toll-gatherers and ruler of the earth…" (Ode 8, p. 81).



4. In the Saturday Midnight Office, the prayer of St. Eustratius, contains the following:

"And now, O Master, let Thy hand shelter me and let Thy mercy descend upon me, for my soul is distracted and pained at its departure from this my wretched and filthy body, lest the evil design of the adversary overtake it and make it stumble into the darkness for the unknown and known sins amassed by me in this life. Be merciful unto me, O Master, and let not my soul see the dark countenances of the evil spirits, but let it be received by Thine Angels bright and shining. Glorify Thy holy name and by Thy might set me before Thy divine judgment seat. When I am being judged, suffer not that the hand of the prince of this world should take hold of me to throw me, a sinner, into the depths of hades, but stand by me and be unto me a savior and mediator..."



5. Canon to the Guardian Angel:

"All my life I have spent much time in vain, now I approach the end: I pray thee, my keeper, be a protector to me and an undefeated champion, when I will pass the toll-houses of the ferocious keeper of the world" (Ode. 9, tr. 3)



6. Small Compline, A Prayer to the Theotokos by Monk Paul:

“And at the time of my departure from this life, care for my wretched soul and drive far away from it the dark forms of evil demons; and in the fearful day of judgment, deliver me from eternal torments, and present me as an heir of the ineffable glory of thy Son and our God.”







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Robban said:

Concrete example, judges 7:19-22

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Here's another concrete case. 1Samuel 13:v.1-7
1 Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel, 2 Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel; whereof two thousand were with Saul in Michmash and in mount Bethel, and a thousand were with Jonathan in Gibeah of Benjamin: and the rest of the people he sent every man to his tent.
3 And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines that was in Geba, and the Philistines heard of it. And Saul blew the trumpet throughout all the land, saying, Let the Hebrews hear. 4 And ALL ISRAEL heard say that Saul had smitten a garrison of the Philistines, and that Israel also was had in abomination with the Philistines (what was a lie). And the people were called together after Saul to Gilgal.

5 And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which is on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits (shameful). 7 And some of the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he was yet in Gilgal, and all the people that followed him were TREMBLING of fear of enemy(shameful).

Actually, Saul was an embarrassment, a shameful, in the end, before dying, he consulted the spirits of demons through an esoteric pythoness, and Satan appeared SPEAKING by the mouth of the woman, in disguise as if he were Samuel, and Saul believe in his father, the Devil, Saul was a liar as is showed by the Word of God, he was like his father. It is what says the righteous Judgment of God. Judgment brings punishment, so certainly the Most High God will cast Saul, and all liars like him, into the lake of fire, into the hell's fire. Psalms 97:v.2 CJB-Complete Jewish Bible - ... Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of God's throne.

Robban said:

Have you been shown these things or have you just read about them in a book?

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I work with the Word of God. The Word is God, understand? Yeah, the Word is God.

He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth is from the earth and talks from an earthly point of view; he who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies about what he has actually seen and heard, yet no one accepts what he says! Whoever does accept what he says puts his seal on the fact that God is true, because the one whom God sent speaks God’s words. For God does not give him the Spirit in limited degree — the Father loves the Son and has put everything in his hands. Whoever trusts in the Son has eternal life. But whoever disobeys the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God’s wrath.

Who does overcome the world if not the person who believes that Yeshua is the Son of God? He is the one who came by means of water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah — not with water only, but with the water and the blood. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word-the Word made flesh-Yeshua-, and the Holy Spirit-who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person- : and these three are One. Yeah, these three are One. The Word is God, the Word is from Eternity to Eternity, He has not beginning, neither ending- Yeshua - the true essiah - is the beginning and the ending.

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which the Most High God has prepared for them that love Him.

Oseas said:

I work with the Word of God. The Word is God, understand? Yeah, the Word is God.

He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the earth is from the earth and talks from an earthly point of view; he who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies about what he has actually seen and heard, yet no one accepts what he says! Whoever does accept what he says puts his seal on the fact that God is true, because the one whom God sent speaks God’s words. For God does not give him the Spirit in limited degree — the Father loves the Son and has put everything in his hands. Whoever trusts in the Son has eternal life. But whoever disobeys the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God’s wrath.

Who does overcome the world if not the person who believes that Yeshua is the Son of God? He is the one who came by means of water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah — not with water only, but with the water and the blood. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, and the Word-the Word made flesh-Yeshua-, and the Holy Spirit-who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person- : and these three are One. Yeah, these three are One. The Word is God, the Word is from Eternity to Eternity, He has not beginning, neither ending- Yeshua - the true essiah - is the beginning and the ending.

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which the Most High God has prepared for them that love Him.

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Answer the question.

dlamberth said:

What do you consider the esoteric to be? I think we're talking about different things.

For me, I'd think that the spiritual connection that Jesus has and is aware of with the Father as well as the Spirit of God would be pretty esoteric in nature. I don't see what would be deceptive about that at all.

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Actually we are talking different one another about different things, for I speak by the Word of God, the Word is God, understand? The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life, they are not of mine, but of my God Father, I speak of what I have received from Him in accord the will of JESUS my Lord. I am one with they both.

But you speak about theories, and beliefs, and literatures, whose writtings were inspired by the spirit of Devil and sowed in the earth by people which were born from the seed of Devil, whose spirits are demons, by the way, there is legion of demons, and they are within to the bodies of multitudes and multitudes of peoples in all nations, religious, materialists, nihilist, satanist, and so son.

That said, from now on, the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all kind of liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, the hell's fire, which is the second death.

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the kingdom of God, evidently.

cloudyday2 said:

Judaism and Christianity share the Old Testament yet their attitudes towards the practice of magic are very different. The practice of magic is often accepted within Judaism as long as it aligns with the will of God. In contrast, the practice of magic is mostly scorned within Christianity regardless of its purpose (although there have been Christians who practiced magic privately).

I wonder why the two religions have different attitudes while sharing the Old Testament? The Old Testament verses that Christians often quote about magic seem pretty unambiguous. Yet, Jews apparently understand the verses differently.

Here is an interesting article about magic in Judaism for anybody who is interested:
The Weird and Wondrous World of Jews and Magic

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I think a main difference would be in the spiritual transformation that exists in Christianity called being born again. When someone is born again, their inner person is no longer as the dust of the earth but as the air, heaven, sky.

Because of this, magic tends to not align well with this spiritual transformation. Since magic resonates strongly with the earth and the physical body, this tends to magnify the conflict that already exists intrinsically in the life of someone who is born again by the Holy Spirit.

As far as book christians without the transformation, I doubt they'd experience any problems creating a form of will based mind control and labeling it prayer. Actually, since it is difficult for people born into the religion to tell if they have experienced the transformation or not, "willing it" to "bear fruit" so they can fit in - is sadly inevitable.