Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If Christ and the saints are ruling with rods of iron and dashing the nations to pieces (Rev. 2:26-29, 19:15), and Satan is locked away in the bottomless pit (Rev. 20) it should be an obvious indicator that sin and evil will indeed be immensely diminished during that time.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension, thus refuting your argument: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Andthe great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

John not only describes the incarnation but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven, confirming that event to be the commencement of His kingly Sovereign reign over “all nations” (that include both sheep and goats). Since the resurrection, Christ providentially shepherds the nations, for His own glory, until the final shepherdly function in time is performed, that of separation the sheep from the goats at His coming.

Here in this important reading is a clear reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the supreme authority disposed in His person. In this short synopsis we see the fact that this child was born to reign. He was predestined to rule the nations. The original indicates the meaning that He was ordained to “shepherd all nations with a rod of iron.” For those who struggle with our interpretation they need to compare to general use of the term poimaino in Scripture and the shepherdly context of this reading where the great shepherd: No one else enjoys such power or fulfills this has the graphic yet brief allusion to the incarnation- the birth of Christ – and what

Here we see the Savior revealed who was brought forth to shepherd. Interesting, the man-child was caught up to His throne from where He now currently sovereignly shepherds the nations.

That reign will continue until Jesus comes again in majesty and glory, and brings heaven to earth.

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the Coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

“Smite (or patasso) the nations.”

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

The Old Testament prophet Isaiah predicted in Isaiah 13:13: “I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.”

What sword?

Isaiah 26:21 adds: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

Earlier in Revelation 2:16, we find Jesus predicting: “I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

The army of heaven (embodying the redeemed of all ages) returns after being caught up for the marriage of the lamb, leaving just one army on earth – the wicked. That is why this passage makes clear that this ‘left behind’ army is totally destroyed. This clearly rebuts Premil and forbids it. It leaves no goats left to saturate its millennium. Revelation 19:19 describes the righteous redeemed army, which includes the elect of all time (those that possess the spiritual robes of Christ's righteousness). It is this company that is rescued by Christ before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. This will be like the destruction of the wicked in Noah and Lot’s day. The world was destroyed by water in Noah’s day and Sodom was obliterated by fire in his day.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are fighting the obvious. You have to, to sustain Premil. The texts speak for themselves and do not need some Premil to explain them away to justify an un-corroborative extra-biblical doctrine.

And they are not as figurative as you claim they are but instead you are imposing an interpretation upon them more symbolic than they allow in order to sustain your Amil position. Revelation chapter 20 is all I need to corroborate a doctrine that you have called extra-biblical yet you have insisted on imposing a symbolic interpretation thereof that the context thereof does not support.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If you cannot back up your claims with a text, you have revealed the Premill doctrine for what it really is?

.

I already have backed up my claims with a text, but you have rejected the text proofs that I have presented.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
IMO, the first mistake some are making, including some Premils, is taking those events in the literal sense. That aside, one thing that can't be denied, or shouldn't be denied if it is, those events clearly occur during the day of the Lord. Assuming the day of the Lord expands into the millennium, those events still can't happen at the end of the millennium, because at the end of the millennium is the beginning of satan's little season, another era of time altogether.

If we, meaning Premils, instead apply these events at the end of satan's little season, or even at the end of the great white throne judgment, what we have done with the texts involved are this. Per our interpretation we no longer have these events occurring during the day of the Lord where the texts indicate they occur, because after the thousand years would no longer be the day of the Lord, assuming the day of the Lord also expanded into the millennium.

This is where I have no choice but to agree with Amil about the timing of these events, regardless that I'm Premil, because Amils at least have these events transpiring where the texts have them transpiring, that being during the day of the Lord, and that most Premils don't. The question then is, which should we agree with? The texts involved, or our interpretation of the texts involved, even though our interpretation is contradicting and not agreeing with the texts involved?

Amil are not literal on the timing. It could have been written as 990 years, and they would say it is not a literal 990 years. Sorta agreeing on specifics probably will not budge them, as they already rejected a literal physical Sabbath. Is Millennium just a way Romans referenced close to 1000 years?

I do not see how they can just make a Sabbath just dissappear. God planned out the Sabbath in the creation of the world. Did God need 24 hours of rest, or did God’s creation receive 1000 years of perfect prosperity? Genesis does not specify the time period of the 7th day. Can you convince non-literal amill or any one, that the 7th day was symbolic for the first 1000 years for the sons of God to multiple and fill the whole earth?

I doubt it, because all claim a literal Adam and Eve as literally being the only two humans. There is no verse in the whole Bible that states that false interpretation. Yet every verse in the Bible when it comes to creation shows that there were many sons of God plural, male and female created on Day 6. Eve was, according to Genesis 2, not even created on day 6. No one seems competent to be literal when necessary and be figurative when necessary. Adam was created on day six, Eve was not. Adam was not the only son of God created on day six.

Why is Genesis 2 and Revelation 20 the most difficult chapters for modern humanity and their so called advancements in knowledge and technology? Both chapters point out a Sabbath of 1000 years, yet no one wants to see the Sovereignty of God in God's creation. It is not my imagination, but Peter's, the most outspoken and assertive disciple in 2 Peter 3, warning us not to be ignorant of the day of Adonai. And Moses the most hesitant of speakers, in Exodus 20, warns us why the Sabbath should be Remembered as the pattern of Creation itself.

JacksBratt · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
If they put their trust in a physical temple, old covenant priesthood and other blood sacrifices that is the a sign they are not getting it and they are rejecting Christ and the new covenant.

I have no argument there.. It's when the 144,000 turn and are converted...

Also.. Christ is King of kings and Lord of Lords.. even now.. However.. He is not reigning now. That is Satan's job right now.. He is the prince of this earth...

When Christ has His 1000 year reign...Satan will be locked up.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
If we are ever to resolve the conflict between Peter and John, then the only reasonable conclusion that can be accepted is that the Day of the Lord is not just the day of God's wrath upon an unrepentant and unbelieving world, but also the day of His reign upon the earth through Christ Jesus and that more was revealed to John about the end times than what was revealed to Peter and the other Apostles. The millennial reign could very well be viewed in terms of an intermission in which man, who has experience a world under the dominion of Satan, now is given an opportunity to live in a world under the dominion of Christ and His saints.

The destruction that accompanies the second coming throughout Scripture correlates with the end of Satan's little season, not the beginning of Revelation 20. The beginning takes us back to the binding of Satan at the First Advent and the first resurrection of Jesus. This fits the Amil paradigm.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-39 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ [Gr. paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The second coming indeed takes place at the same time as the destruction of death. This is speaking of something that occurs “at the last trump.” Also, it is describing the arrangement that will be ushered in by God at that glorious event: a state of “incorruption.” Thirdly, it is chronicling the conditions for embracing that perfect state: namely a supernatural change in which man is suitably clothed in order to inherit the said state: “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Everything about this passage is climactic. Particularly interesting about this last trumpet is the fact that it confirms “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Firstly, we are entering into eternity, secondly, “the kingdoms of this world” have finally been submitted unto Christ. Never again will they rise up in rebellion against righteousness and truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I have no argument there.. It's when the 144,000 turn and are converted...

Also.. Christ is King of kings and Lord of Lords.. even now.. However.. He is not reigning now. That is Satan's job right now.. He is the prince of this earth...

When Christ has His 1000 year reign...Satan will be locked up.

This is why you are confused on this matter. You are deny the reality of the current triumphant reign of Christ. That is foolish. It is hard to watch Christians undermine the omnipotence of Christ. They deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. As we have seen, that is not what Scripture depicts.

Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

You obviously do not even get what being at the right hand of majesty means. It means to carry heaven's authority. It has been delegated to Him. He exercises all power! "All power" means that He reigns over all creation as God and causes and permits everything that happens. He is ruling over everything and everyone (there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control). How much more power does He need to possess to exercise full authority than this? Christ testifies in Rev 3:7 that He "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth."

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. Romans 13:1: “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”

Many do not seem to understand the whole concept of cause and permit. Just because God permits evil does not mean He is not sovereign. He uses it ultimately for His glory. So allowing evil does not infringe upon His holy nature. The reality is, Christ’s enemies are all under His feet and His rules upon majesty on high. Being under His feet means under His sovereign control. We all know that Christ carries that loft position and no one will ever be able to unseat Him.

Premils are always talking about the power, ability and influence of Satan. They want to talk about how strong he is and what he is accomplishing. They try their best to give him access to heaven, even though he has been cast out of it forever. In doing so, they dethrone Christ from His sovereign role as king and ruler of this globe.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?

There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.

Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, “These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus” (Acts 17:6-7).

Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”

The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.

Any authority belonging to, or exercised by, the Church must ultimately emanate from the One who bestows it – Jesus Christ.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is nothing in Revelation 20 that lends itself to a Premil paradigm.

Premils ad-hoc approach to biblical interpretation is at the core of the Premil error:

(1) They totally reject the idea of corroboration when it comes to this doctrine because it does not exist in Holy Writ.
(2) Their fixation with this highly symbolic text located in the most obscure book in the Bible is the sole source of their theory.
(3) What they attribute to Revelation 20 does not actually exist in the text.
(4) Premils have to ignore the explicit climactic detail in Revelation 19 that forbids a Premil theory.
(5) Premils have to ignore/deny the fact that repeated Scripture teaches that Christ defeated/bound Satan 2000 years ago through His earthly ministry.
(6)They have to ignore/deny Christ's first resurrection 2000 years ago.
(7) They have to ignore/deny that resurrection/judgment day is always described in the Bible in the singular and can only relate to the time after Satan's little season.
(8) They must deny the obvious connection between Satan's little season before the coming of Christ and all the other recaps in Revelation that show the same before the appearing of Christ.
explicit climactic detail in Revelation 19 that forbids a Premil theory.
(9) Premils invent another age in-between this age and the age to come that is unknown to the rest of Scripture.
(10) Revelation 20 actually outlines the Amil paradigm pertaining to the intra-Advent period.

1) That Revelation 20 foretells a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth is all we need in the Holy Writ but to deny that it exists in the Holy Writ is to deny what you are reading.

2) There is no contextual reason to believe that the thousand year reign is anything other than a literal period of time during which Christ and His saints rule upon the earth.

3) What we do attribute to Revelation 20 does exist in the text but you refuse to believe the text.

4) The climatic details of Revelation 19 do not in anyway contradict or challenge premil theory.

5) There is no teaching in scripture that suggests that Satan was ever bound during the earthly ministry of Christ on the earth. While granted that Christ soundly resisted Satan's temptations in the wilderness and though the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection has taken away Satan's power over the souls of them who place their trust in Christ and has ensured his eventual and final defeat, at present, Satan is still freely roaming about the world and going back and forth between heaven and earth. If it were not so, then passages like 2 Corinthians 2:11, Ephesians chapter 6, James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8 and others mentioning Satan and other wicked spirits which were written after Christ's ascension into Heaven, would be absolutely meaningless.

6) We don't have to ignore anything, especially the resurrection of Christ, but you are the one who is ignoring and denying anything that challenges your Amil position.

7) The Apostle John challenges the notion that both the righteous and wicked are judged on the same day. (Rev. 20) Those who rely on passages appearing to state that this is so are going to find that position indefensible when confronted with Revelation chapter 20. The only reasonable resolution to that conflict is to simply accept that John received more revelation about the end days and the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous than the other Apostles did.

9) Satan's season has not been a short season, but a long season that is drawing to a close. Never does scripture place Satan's short season before Christ. It places his short season after the thousand year reign and once more, there are no details in Revelation 19 that forbid premil theory.

10) There is nothing in Revelation 20 supporting an Amil theory.

sovereigngrace said:
Again, you explain what is clear and explicit in the plain texts outside of Revelation and explain it away with your non-corroborative private interpretation of Revelation 20.

2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

You have yet to reconcile this with John's vision which reveals to him much more than what was revealed to Peter. This is not to say that Peter was wrong in what he wrote, but those insisting on relying on 2 Peter 3 to build an eschatology about the end times are going to find it impossible to defend when confronted with the book of Revelation. The only reasonable conclusion is just to simply accept that the Lord showed to the Apostle John more of what is destined to take place during the end times than he showed to the other Apostles.

sovereigngrace said:
The objective un-indoctrinated observer knows what I am saying is true on this issue.

That is beside the point.

sovereigngrace said:
The main issue is that your hermeneutics do not take context and genre into consideration. If you did you would be forced to recognize that we are looking at the most figurative book in the Bible. It is saturated in symbolism. There is a lack of consistency in your approach to Revelation.

Premil hermeneutics DO take context and genre into consideration, but it is the Amil position that ignores and refuses to consult all that scripture has to say about the end times, including the reign of Christ upon the earth; imposing symbolic interpretation where it is not warranted.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

BABerean2 said:
You are using your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 to redefine the rest of the Bible.

It is called interpreting scripture with scripture and my interpretation of Revelation 20 is confined to what the text itself presents just as it is with the rest of scripture.

BABerean2 said:
The words of Christ found in Matthew 25:31-46 are not my "unfounded assumption".
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of the passage.

The Words of Christ themselves may not be your unfounded assumption, but your insistence that mortals will not enter into His Kingdom on the earth is.

BABerean2 said:
If the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order the Premill doctrine falls apart.
Since Christ returns as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation chapter 16 we know the book is not in chronological order. The greatest earthquake in history also occurs in this chapter. If an earthquake destroys the mountains, what is happening to the planet?

Everything that should make you hope and pray for the Church to be caught up beforehand.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
So, when 3000 souls were saved at Pentecost it just meant perhaps 30? When Jesus fed 5000, it was only about 50? The NT writers were just using hyperbole?

Are you saying the NT by God’s design cannot be more precise and specific than the generalities of the OT?

Good point.

DavidPT · Sep 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
Amil are not literal on the timing. It could have been written as 990 years, and they would say it is not a literal 990 years. Sorta agreeing on specifics probably will not budge them, as they already rejected a literal physical Sabbath. Is Millennium just a way Romans referenced close to 1000 years?

I do not see how they can just make a Sabbath just dissappear. God planned out the Sabbath in the creation of the world. Did God need 24 hours of rest, or did God’s creation receive 1000 years of perfect prosperity? Genesis does not specify the time period of the 7th day. Can you convince non-literal amill or any one, that the 7th day was symbolic for the first 1000 years for the sons of God to multiple and fill the whole earth?

I doubt it, because all claim a literal Adam and Eve as literally being the only two humans. There is no verse in the whole Bible that states that false interpretation. Yet every verse in the Bible when it comes to creation shows that there were many sons of God plural, male and female created on Day 6. Eve was, according to Genesis 2, not even created on day 6. No one seems competent to be literal when necessary and be figurative when necessary. Adam was created on day six, Eve was not. Adam was not the only son of God created on day six.

Why is Genesis 2 and Revelation 20 the most difficult chapters for modern humanity and their so called advancements in knowledge and technology? Both chapters point out a Sabbath of 1000 years, yet no one wants to see the Sovereignty of God in God's creation. It is not my imagination, but Peter's, the most outspoken and assertive disciple in 2 Peter 3, warning us not to be ignorant of the day of Adonai. And Moses the most hesitant of speakers, in Exodus 20, warns us why the Sabbath should be Remembered as the pattern of Creation itself.

What I'm basically saying is, the fact I'm Premil, which means a thousand years follows the 2nd coming, Amils are still correct to place the events of 2 Peter 3:10-12 during the 2nd coming, the fact these events clearly occur during the day of the Lord.

Per Premil it is not reasonable to place some of those events pertaining to 2 Peter 3:10-12, at the end of the satan's little season, or even at the end of the great white throne judgment, and then claim this still agrees with the texts involved, that these events still take place during the day of the Lord.

Assuming the day of the Lord is a thousand years, a thousand years plus satan's little season, plus the great white throne judgment, that combined does not equal a thousand years, it equals more than a thousand years. When satan's little season begins, this thousand years are entirely in the past at this point, and so would be the day of the Lord, assuming it's connected with this thousand years.

Me being Premil, this is one reason I don't take 2 Peter 3:10-12 hyper literally, as if the entire planet will go up in flames at the time. If 2 Peter 3:10-12 involves the 2nd coming like many of us tend to believe, and that Revelation 19 also involves the 2nd coming like many of us tend to believe, why is it that Revelation 19 depicts no such thing when Christ returns, that the entire planet has literally gone up in flames at the time?

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Because He is reigning now. Premils deny His kingship but Amils and Postmils recognize it.
Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

That He is presently reigning in Heaven is not what is being debated.

sovereigngrace said:
By the way, the Bible does it say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

A lion that walks about is not a lion that is bound. A bound lion is a caged lion.

sovereigngrace said:
Let us look at the extent of Christ’s authority today.

Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put (present tense ) all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He is risen and He is reigning! He is ruling over everything! This is happening right now! Check out the actual original text and check out the tenses involved.

Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

These passages couldn’t be stronger in outlining where supreme authority lies today. Christ sovereignly reigns in kingly power over all creation.

Again, the extent of Christ's authority and power are not what is being debated, but the full enforcement thereof has not come to the earth. If it were so, the earth would be a far different place and in much better condition than it is now, but for the time being, He has allowed things to persist as they are now and the Apostle Peter tells us why. (2 Pet. 3:9)

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
1) That Revelation 20 foretells a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth is all we need in the Holy Writ but to deny that it exists in the Holy Writ is to deny what you are reading.

So, my contention holds. Thanks for confirming that.

2) There is no contextual reason to believe that the thousand year reign is anything other than a literal period of time during which Christ and His saints rule upon the earth.

If you are so adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

3) What we do attribute to Revelation 20 does exist in the text but you refuse to believe the text.

What is it that Amils attribute to Revelation 20 that does not exist in the text? You keep making sweeping claims like this without any evidence attached. This is a common (but frustrating) Premil tactic.

4) The climatic details of Revelation 19 do not in anyway contradict or challenge premil theory.

Again: opinion. No evidence. No facts. Just your opinion. Private interpretation. You do not quote or exegete the passage. You seem to think your word or your opinion is sufficient to override the sacred text. No. It exposes your opinion.

5) There is no teaching in scripture that suggests that Satan was ever bound during the earthly ministry of Christ on the earth. While granted that Christ soundly resisted Satan's temptations in the wilderness and though the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection has taken away Satan's power over the souls of them who place their trust in Christ and has ensured his eventual and final defeat, at present, Satan is still freely roaming about the world and going back and forth between heaven and earth. If it were not so, then passages like 2 Corinthians 2:11, Ephesians chapter 6, James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8 and others mentioning Satan and other wicked spirits which were written after Christ's ascension into Heaven, would be absolutely meaningless.

Again, you fail to quote the actual text, which is a common trait of Premil apologetics, as it allows you to foist your opinion upon the inspired pages.

Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metallic door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
How can the abyss refer to an actual physical pit with a physical seal on it, when Satan is a spiritual being?

6) We don't have to ignore anything, especially the resurrection of Christ, but you are the one who is ignoring and denying anything that challenges your Amil position.

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

7) The Apostle John challenges the notion that both the righteous and wicked are judged on the same day. (Rev. 20) Those who rely on passages appearing to state that this is so are going to find that position indefensible when confronted with Revelation chapter 20. The only reasonable resolution to that conflict is to simply accept that John received more revelation about the end days and the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous than the other Apostles did.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical judgment days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Where in Scripture does it mention "judgment days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

8) Satan's season has not been a short season, but a long season that is drawing to a close. Never does scripture place Satan's short season before Christ. It places his short season after the thousand year reign and once more, there are no details in Revelation 19 that forbid premil theory.

When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him).

Through his defeat, Satan fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11 & Revelation 20:3). The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

10) There is nothing in Revelation 20 supporting an Amil theory.

Again: opinion. No evidence. No facts. Just your opinion. Private interpretation. You do not quote or exegete the passage. You seem to think your word or your opinion is sufficient to override the sacred text. No. It exposes your opinion.

I see you sidestepped 9:

(9) Premils invent another age in-between this age and the age to come that is unknown to the rest of Scripture.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
That He is presently reigning in Heaven is not what is being debated.

A lion that walks about is not a lion that is bound. A bound lion is a caged lion.

Again, the extent of Christ's authority and power are not what is being debated, but the full enforcement thereof has not come to the earth. If it were so, the earth would be a far different place and in much better condition than it is now, but for the time being, He has allowed things to persist as they are now and the Apostle Peter tells us why. (2 Pet. 3:9)

Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo (Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jesus said in Mark 3:23-27: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo Strong’s 1210) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (or deo Strong’s 1210) him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension, thus refuting your argument: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Andthe great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

John not only describes the incarnation but also Christ’s ascension to the throne of heaven, confirming that event to be the commencement of His kingly Sovereign reign over “all nations” (that include both sheep and goats). Since the resurrection, Christ providentially shepherds the nations, for His own glory, until the final shepherdly function in time is performed, that of separation the sheep from the goats at His coming.

Here in this important reading is a clear reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the supreme authority disposed in His person. In this short synopsis we see the fact that this child was born to reign. He was predestined to rule the nations. The original indicates the meaning that He was ordained to “shepherd all nations with a rod of iron.” For those who struggle with our interpretation they need to compare to general use of the term poimaino in Scripture and the shepherdly context of this reading where the great shepherd: No one else enjoys such power or fulfills this has the graphic yet brief allusion to the incarnation- the birth of Christ – and what

Here we see the Savior revealed who was brought forth to shepherd. Interesting, the man-child was caught up to His throne from where He now currently sovereignly shepherds the nations.

That reign will continue until Jesus comes again in majesty and glory, and brings heaven to earth.

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the Coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

“Smite (or patasso) the nations.”

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

The Old Testament prophet Isaiah predicted in Isaiah 13:13: “I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.”

What sword?

Isaiah 26:21 adds: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

Earlier in Revelation 2:16, we find Jesus predicting: “I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

Christ is not coming as Saviour of the world at the end but as its Judge. This is a solemn day for the wicked. Here we see the great final battle of the ages between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. On one side on earth you have the wicked confederacy of the beast’s armies on earth (namely all the wicked) arrayed against the armies of heaven (appearing in the sky) which relates to the people of God that are redeemed.

There are clearly two opposing armies in view here in this reading: the army of God, led by Christ, and the army of Satan. One is totally victorious; the other one is totally annihilated. This is talking about two kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture.

There are only 2 peoples on this earth in God's eyes - the redeemed and the wicked. These both are armies in conflict with each other. When Jesus returns the elect are caught up, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 peoples/armies carry one of 2 marks - God's mark or the world's mark of reprobation. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, they are walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

The army of heaven (embodying the redeemed of all ages) returns after being caught up for the marriage of the lamb, leaving just one army on earth – the wicked. That is why this passage makes clear that this ‘left behind’ army is totally destroyed. This clearly rebuts Premil and forbids it. It leaves no goats left to saturate its millennium. Revelation 19:19 describes the righteous redeemed army, which includes the elect of all time (those that possess the spiritual robes of Christ's righteousness). It is this company that is rescued by Christ before He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. This will be like the destruction of the wicked in Noah and Lot’s day. The world was destroyed by water in Noah’s day and Sodom was obliterated by fire in his day.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

Revelation Chapter 12 is both past and future: The chapter takes us back to the past in order to understand what is to take place in the future. Christ has already been born and taken up into Heaven. What has not happened yet is Satan being shut out of Heaven. He still approaches the throne of God to accuse the saints and challenge God just as i made clear in the first two chapters of the book of Job. He has also not yet chased the woman portrayed in the chapter into a wilderness nor yet set out to attack her offspring with the ferocity that he will when he and his angels are cast out of Heaven and shut out.

The two groups of people separated from one another by Christ when He returns are not just people but the nations who witness His return as described in Matthew 25:31-46; the wicked nations going into everlasting judgment and the righteous nations abiding with Christ and living under His rulership. As for the third group of people you insist that I have invented, they are the children of the surviving righteous who enter into the millennial Kingdom. If it were not so, then explain the multitude of people who try but fail to overthrow Christ and His saints at the end of that era. (Rev. 20:7-9) Granted that the rod of iron with which the nations are ruled is not mentioned in Revelation 20, but it is mentioned in Revelation 19:15 and 2:26-29 and associated with what is described in chapter 20.

Verse four of chapter 20 and the rest of the chapter ought to make it clear that Christ and the saints are ruling and reigning on the earth for a thousand years, especially verses 7-9 when the people rejecting their rule try to overthrow them but are destroyed by fire from Heaven.

You persist in denying the very words in front of you.

Contenders Edge · Sep 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The destruction that accompanies the second coming throughout Scripture correlates with the end of Satan's little season, not the beginning of Revelation 20. The beginning takes us back to the binding of Satan at the First Advent and the first resurrection of Jesus. This fits the Amil paradigm.

There is nothing within the chapter that suggests a look back into the past. It is all presented as future.

sovereigngrace said:
The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

So it appears until He tells us more of what is to come in the book of Revelation before all things are gloriously changed and corruption and wickedness are destroyed once and for all.

sovereigngrace said:
The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

I'll not debate this one here, but will address it on another thread pertaining specifically to the rapture.

sovereigngrace said:
1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ [Gr. paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The second coming indeed takes place at the same time as the destruction of death. This is speaking of something that occurs “at the last trump.” Also, it is describing the arrangement that will be ushered in by God at that glorious event: a state of “incorruption.” Thirdly, it is chronicling the conditions for embracing that perfect state: namely a supernatural change in which man is suitably clothed in order to inherit the said state: “this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

This event frees our bodies from death, but death is not entirely eliminated until it is cast into the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:14). It is not even cast into the Lake of Fire until after Satan has been cast into it.

sovereigngrace said:
Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Everything about this passage is climactic. Particularly interesting about this last trumpet is the fact that it confirms “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Firstly, we are entering into eternity, secondly, “the kingdoms of this world” have finally been submitted unto Christ. Never again will they rise up in rebellion against righteousness and truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

Every other chapter after chapter 11 tells us all that must take place before then. Were it not so, then why twenty-two chapters instead of just eleven? Why was John not instructed to just end it there? And the reason why one does NOT see a general resurrection of the dead and a general judgment is because we have Revelation chapter 20.

sovereigngrace said:
The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

The Words of Christ in the passages you cite are but a condensed version of all that is to take place as is made clear by the book of Revelation which He instructed John to write. Yes, the wicked and all corruption will be destroyed and things will be changed for the better when Christ comes, but the twentieth chapter of the book of Revelation tells us what other things will be taking place during that process. It will not be as fast pace as we might otherwise think.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Revelation Chapter 12 is both past and future: The chapter takes us back to the past in order to understand what is to take place in the future. Christ has already been born and taken up into Heaven. What has not happened yet is Satan being shut out of Heaven. He still approaches the throne of God to accuse the saints and challenge God just as i made clear in the first two chapters of the book of Job. He has also not yet chased the woman portrayed in the chapter into a wilderness nor yet set out to attack her offspring with the ferocity that he will when he and his angels are cast out of Heaven and shut out.

The two groups of people separated from one another by Christ when He returns are not just people but the nations who witness His return as described in Matthew 25:31-46; the wicked nations going into everlasting judgment and the righteous nations abiding with Christ and living under His rulership. As for the third group of people you insist that I have invented, they are the children of the surviving righteous who enter into the millennial Kingdom. If it were not so, then explain the multitude of people who try but fail to overthrow Christ and His saints at the end of that era. (Rev. 20:7-9) Granted that the rod of iron with which the nations are ruled is not mentioned in Revelation 20, but it is mentioned in Revelation 19:15 and 2:26-29 and associated with what is described in chapter 20.

Verse four of chapter 20 and the rest of the chapter ought to make it clear that Christ and the saints are ruling and reigning on the earth for a thousand years, especially verses 7-9 when the people rejecting their rule try to overthrow them but are destroyed by fire from Heaven.

You persist in denying the very words in front of you.

Again, you refuse to quote the Bible because it negates Premil. Premils have a lot to fear from quoting Scripture, because it exposes their error. It doesn't matter what topic, passage or issue we look at, your doctrine cannot abide the Word of truth.

All you have is personal opinion. That is all your posts include. Any references you give you fail to quote because they do not tally up with your private interpretation.

Rev 12 takes us back to Christ resurrection/ascension. It shows is the defeat of Satan, His banishment from heaven and his ongoing defeat by the Christ in this intra-Advent period. There is no mention of the second coming and no mention of some supposed future millennium. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made theory invented by men who fail to see the recaps of Revelation.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
There is nothing within the chapter that suggests a look back into the past. It is all presented as future.

So it appears until He tells us more of what is to come in the book of Revelation before all things are gloriously changed and corruption and wickedness are destroyed once and for all.

I'll not debate this one here, but will address it on another thread pertaining specifically to the rapture.

This event frees our bodies from death, but death is not entirely eliminated until it is cast into the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:14). It is not even cast into the Lake of Fire until after Satan has been cast into it.

Every other chapter after chapter 11 tells us all that must take place before then. Were it not so, then why twenty-two chapters instead of just eleven? Why was John not instructed to just end it there? And the reason why one does NOT see a general resurrection of the dead and a general judgment is because we have Revelation chapter 20.

The Words of Christ in the passages you cite are but a condensed version of all that is to take place as is made clear by the book of Revelation which He instructed John to write. Yes, the wicked and all corruption will be destroyed and things will be changed for the better when Christ comes, but the twentieth chapter of the book of Revelation tells us what other things will be taking place during that process. It will not be as fast pace as we might otherwise think.

When you are willing to quote Scripture come back to me. I am weary of listening to your personal opinions/rhetoric. You are wasting my time and the readers time.

Timtofly · Sep 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
What I'm basically saying is, the fact I'm Premil, which means a thousand years follows the 2nd coming, Amils are still correct to place the events of 2 Peter 3:10-12 during the 2nd coming, the fact these events clearly occur during the day of the Lord.

Per Premil it is not reasonable to place some of those events pertaining to 2 Peter 3:10-12, at the end of the satan's little season, or even at the end of the great white throne judgment, and then claim this still agrees with the texts involved, that these events still take place during the day of the Lord.

Assuming the day of the Lord is a thousand years, a thousand years plus satan's little season, plus the great white throne judgment, that combined does not equal a thousand years, it equals more than a thousand years. When satan's little season begins, this thousand years are entirely in the past at this point, and so would be the day of the Lord, assuming it's connected with this thousand years.

Me being Premil, this is one reason I don't take 2 Peter 3:10-12 hyper literally, as if the entire planet will go up in flames at the time. If 2 Peter 3:10-12 involves the 2nd coming like many of us tend to believe, and that Revelation 19 also involves the 2nd coming like many of us tend to believe, why is it that Revelation 19 depicts no such thing when Christ returns, that the entire planet has literally gone up in flames at the time?

Saying the Millennium last exactly 1000 years to the second is being hyper literal, no?

Some say the OT ended at the birth of Jesus, some say the ministry of Jesus, some say the cross, some say the ascension, some say the day of Pentecost, and finally some say 70AD. So we have a variance of 73 years.

It has been 1990 years since the Cross, when God said, "it is fnished." When the 7th trumpet is blown, the age "will be finished." That may be sooner than 10 years, which is 2000 years since the last "finish" proclamation. It may be in 2023 only 1993 since the Cross. If the Millennium is 7 years or 3.5 years sooner, does it matter that the Sabbath is exactly 1000 years? The first ministry of Jesus from birth to death was 33.5 years. If the actual ministry of the second advent starts this year, then The actual day of the Lord will be longer than 1000 years or shorter. Jesus will not have to hang around doing nothing for 30 years this time. Nor will His ministry need to be 3.5 years. It may be as short as 1.5 to 2 years.

If you accept that Satan does get 3.5 years now, he definitely will not get more than that later. At the other end, it may only be a few months.

sovereigngrace · Sep 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
Saying the Millennium last exactly 1000 years to the second is being hyper literal, no?

Some say the OT ended at the birth of Jesus, some say the ministry of Jesus, some say the cross, some say the ascension, some say the day of Pentecost, and finally some say 70AD. So we have a variance of 73 years.

It has been 1990 years since the Cross, when God said, "it is fnished." When the 7th trumpet is blown, the age "will be finished." That may be sooner than 10 years, which is 2000 years since the last "finish" proclamation. It may be in 2023 only 1993 since the Cross. If the Millennium is 7 years or 3.5 years sooner, does it matter that the Sabbath is exactly 1000 years? The first ministry of Jesus from birth to death was 33.5 years. If the actual ministry of the second advent starts this year, then The actual day of the Lord will be longer than 1000 years or shorter. Jesus will not have to hang around doing nothing for 30 years this time. Nor will His ministry need to be 3.5 years. It may be as short as 1.5 to 2 years.

If you accept that Satan does get 3.5 years now, he definitely will not get more than that later. At the other end, it may only be a few months.

Your problem is: you do not grasp figurative language. You do not see the apocalyptic genre of Revelation. You do not see the repeated recaps. Because of that you fail to see what it is actually saying. The result of that is Premil.

Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

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