Was Jesus Actually Perfect?

Saint Steven said:

Hmm... I don't think so.
Would the angel be high and exalted, seated on a throne, his robe filling the Temple? Probably not. More evidence in context. See below.

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

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Considering that the angel is the one revealing himself to be Yahweh, El Shaddai, and God, yes, he would be exalted and sitting on a throne.

Rose2020 said:

Also I don't think that He was perfect in the sense where He never ever made a spelling mistake or forgot where He left one of His carpentry tools as those are classified as sinless mistakes. So in conclusion I believe that Jesus was born entirely sinless,.. but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect.

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The words... "but in order to fully know what it's like to be human you also have to fully understand what it's like to be imperfect."

Being not all powerful is not imperfection. It seems you see perfect as requiring he be all powerful. That is being God. God is absolute perfection.

To have need is not being imperfect. Its to be human.

Jesus had his normal needs as a human. As God? He would be in need of nothing.

Rose2020 said:

Exactly and that's my point. Even if Jesus did wrong as a little child that doesn't make Him a sinner.

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Ignorance as a child of what is the right way? And, yet to learn it? Is not being a sinner.

After being shown the right way? And, choosing not to follow it? Is a sinner.

That is why we see the term reaching the "age of accountability" found in theology.

For, that is why any child who dies before reaching the age of accountability is automatically saved. Keep in mind. God alone knows who this can happen to. No mistakes in allowing a child who would have grown up to be evil is allowed to die in this manner.

genez said:

Ignorance as a child of what is the right way? And, yet to learn it? Is not being a sinner.
After being shown the right way? And, choosing not to follow it? Is a sinner.
That is why we see the term reaching the "age of accountability" found in theology.
For, that is why any child who dies before reaching the age of accountability is automatically saved. Keep in mind. God alone knows who this can happen to. No mistakes in allowing a child who would have grown up to be evil is allowed to die in this manner.

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God planned for this contingency.

Saint Steven said:

I think the term "invisible" in this sense is archaic. I doesn't mean that God cannot be seen, but that he shields us from viewing him. Hidden from our sight.

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

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May I ask you who the Lord ( YHWH) is in Isaiah 6:1 ?

Who did Isaiah see ?

RDKirk said:

Probably something similar to back when I was a kid and society believed I was a threat to white kids, and thus kept me secluded from them.

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Wow, you're pretty... aged huh. Yeah, that was a weird time, glad that's over with, at least, I hope.

Dkh587 said:

Considering that the angel is the one revealing himself to be Yahweh, El Shaddai, and God, yes, he would be exalted and sitting on a throne.

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And "... the King, the Lord Almighty." ??? (vs. 5)
The passage says nothing about an angel.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

Jesus is YHWH said:

May I ask you who the Lord ( YHWH) is in Isaiah 6:1 ?

Who did Isaiah see ?

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Sounds like a loaded question.

Running2win said:

Yes, God is eternal, and He never has died. Jesus died for us (tasted death), so we who put our faith in Him won't. The Trinity always has been and always will be. We just can't wrap our brains around the always has been part, because we are created beings.

But Him being eternal does not have anything to do with Him being invisible to us. The spiritual realm is invisible to our eyes now, but it is visible once we die and go to Heaven, or Hades.

I believe God the Father does have "form", in the spiritual realm-this could be His soul, and a form He has always had. You can see this in places like Ezek 1, Dan 9, Rev 22, Ex 33. Adam and Eve saw God and walked with Him in the garden. After they fell they had to be driven out and could not look upon Him again (His face).

17The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.” 18Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” 21Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23“Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

15Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was circling the city. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” 16So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18When they came down to him, Elisha prayed to the LORD and said, “Strike this people with blindness, I pray.” So He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. 19Then Elisha said to them, “This is not the way, nor is this the city; follow me and I will bring you to the man whom you seek.” And he brought them to Samaria.

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Jesus died OUR deaths. Jesus never sinned. He could never spiritually die as He was without personally committing a sin. Its our sins that pierced Him. Its our deaths that he experienced on the Cross.

The word we read as "death" in various places actually appears in the plurality, not singular. In Isaiah 53:9 Jesus experienced "deaths." Deaths" appears in the Hebrew in the intensive plural.

Jesus could not die as Himself. He took upon Himself our sins in total identification with every sinner in humanity. As each of our sins pierced his body he experienced an agonizing spiritual death. Billions upon billions... even trillions of sins were constantly being poured on his body at nano second speed.

If there was only ten sins to pay for? He would have been forsaken a short time while he bore those ten sins. For Jesus could not remain cut off from the Father if he himself never sinned. Our sins caused Him to be forsaken by the Father. That is why at the end of the crucifixion it says.."Now knowing all was completed." John 19:28

It is Finished...For after the last sin had been poured on Him and he bore his least death.. he knew it in his soul. For, Jesus at that point sensed He was no longer being cut off from the Father. That is why He shouted out... "IT IS FINISHED!"

Jesus remained sinless and as Himself could not die. He vicariously died our deaths as if it were Himself. He owned our deaths as being His own. He possessed our deaths. Our deaths became his deaths! That is why its referred to "His deaths" in Isaiah 53:9 (in the Hebrew).

Most translators can not make sense of the plurality of deaths... So, there has been an unspoken agreement not to give us a literal translation.. Its not only with this word. It happens often enough in translations as tradition. There comes a time though, when knowing what it actually says is demanded if we are to grow and mature as God would have us to.




grace and peace......

Saint Steven said:

Sounds like a loaded question.

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Father, Son, Holy Spirit ?

All 3 ?

Rose2020 said:

Uh actually Jesus died for real. He just didn't stay that way.

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His physical death was voluntary. After seeing all was finished? He no longer had to remain as a man to die spiritually in our place. Its was His spiritual death that saved us from our sins. That is why he kept screaming out that he had been forsaken by God! After it was finished? He then "breathed his last." He exhaled.

He was not killed by the Romans. That is why Pilate demanded to have Jesus pierced to make sure he was not simply passed out. For the Romans had crucifixions down to a science. Typical person could last days hanging there. That is also why Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus had died. Mark 15:44

No man took his life. Jesus said that no man would. John 10:18

Jesus volunteered to stop breathing because his work as a man - dying for all men - was finished.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Father, Son, Holy Spirit ?

All 3 ?

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What about "all three?" Not sure what you are getting at.

genez said:

What about "all three?" Not sure what you are getting at.

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Its the Son as John testifies below.


John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him

Isa 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,

The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Its the Son as John testifies below.


John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him

Isa 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,

The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

hope this helps !!!

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I understand all that. Why was it brought up if I may ask. What was that answering?

What do we do with these?!

John 6:46

John 14:9




*So, if you've seen the Father, You Are the Father?

Jesus is YHWH said:

Father, Son, Holy Spirit ?

All 3 ?

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Is that your attempt to unload this question?

Jesus is YHWH said: ↑
May I ask you who the Lord ( YHWH) is in Isaiah 6:1 ?

Who did Isaiah see ?

genez said:

His physical death was voluntary. After seeing all was finished? He no longer had to remain as a man to die spiritually in our place. Its was His spiritual death that saved us from our sins. That is why he kept screaming out that he had been forsaken by God! After it was finished? He then "breathed his last." He exhaled.

He was not killed by the Romans. That is why Pilate demanded to have Jesus pierced to make sure he was not simply passed out. For the Romans had crucifixions down to a science. Typical person could last days hanging there. That is also why Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus had died. Mark 15:44

No man took his life. Jesus said that no man would. John 10:18

Jesus volunteered to stop breathing because his work as a man - dying for all men - was finished.

Click to expand...

I don't agree that He died spiritually. Where does it say that? That's why we have to be born again before we die. If we are not, we will never make the Kingdom.

His body and His soul was wounded for our transgressions, not His spirit. The picture is of the spotless sacrificial Lamb of God bearing our sins. Blood had to shed in order for Him to take away our sins. It's the body and blood of Jesus that takes away our sins.

Our body is now dead in sin and needs redemption, we are already born again ( if we have trusted in Christ) having a regenerated soul, and our spirit has communicates with the Holy Spirit we are children of God. What waits redemption is the body.

Our soul needs to be saved, and we need the resurrection to redeem our bodies

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Jesus Briefly Humbled

9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12saying,
“I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”

13And again,
“I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM.”
And again,
“BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.



◄ Hebrews 10 ►
New American Standard Bible Par ▾
One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

8After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.



A New and Living Way

19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

0But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

Running2win said:

I don't agree that He died spiritually. Where does it say that?

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Directly? It does not say it that way. It only indicates it.

Just like Adam was told he would die in the same day if he ate the fruit.

He did die. Not physically.

Where does it say he died spiritually? In a black and white way? Requiring no insight? For, after eating he was physically alive and running to find some fig leaves.

But, he was told in the day he ate? He would die.

Hint... the Hebrew tells us something that most translations chose to ignore ...

In the Hebrew is states: "In dying you shall die." It does not say die, nor surely die. It says, "in dying you shall die." Two deaths. Not simply one.


So when Adam ate? He died instantly. Died spiritually. He now needed a redeemer.

The result of Adam's spiritual death? Hundreds of years later he finally died physically.

Yet? In the day he ate? He died.

So you can ask me? Where does it say directly, "spiritually?"


What told Columbus that the world was not flat? Was it something spelled out for him in black and white? No.. It was insight that came from what he could see. While many did not agree with him.

grace and peace........