Neogaia777

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I'm not sure on the priests example but for whatever reason they needed to do what they did and while it was breaking the Sabbath law, it was justified.

In David's case, if I recall correctly, he was in a war and the men needed to eat to continue fighting so they ate food that was forbidden and was a sin but because it was necessary, it was deemed ok by God.

It would simply be that these people needed to accomplish something important and sometimes breaking a law while doing so happens and is allowed.

So they were breaking the law, but they were not breaking the law...?

So, did they break the law or not...?

Again, fishing for this info for another thread...

Would you say they kept and/or obeyed the Spirit of the law, over the letter of it, and that the Spirit of the law is what made it an exception, and maybe even "superior" (the Spirit of the Law) to and over the letter of it (the law, or letter of the law), etc...?

The letter does not and cannot make exceptions you see, it is absolute, etc, it cannot ever make exceptions, etc, unless it is "amended" later on and more is added to it, then more, then more, then more, etc, etc, etc, and it can never ever do the Spirit of a or the law full justice ever, and it just never ends, etc...

And I'm discussing this with someone in another thread also, etc...

God Bless!
 
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redleghunter

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I know the what, but what I am trying to understand is the "why", etc, what made those cases justified in those cases, etc, and how was that or those examples supposed to answer the Pharisees questions, etc...?
Jesus shut the door on their argument. It was a debate over whether one could do good on the Sabbath see here:

Luke 14: NASB

1It happened that when He went into the house of one of the leaders of the Pharisees on the Sabbath to eat bread, they were watching Him closely. 2And there in front of Him was a man suffering from dropsy. 3And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?” 4But they kept silent. And He took hold of him and healed him, and sent him away. 5And He said to them, “Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?” 6And they could make no reply to this.
 
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ewq1938

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So they were breaking the law, but they were not breaking the law...?

So, did they break the law or not...?

Matthew writes about profaning the law but are blameless. So, yes the law was broken but it was not sinful.



Would you say they kept and/or obeyed the Spirit of the law, over the letter of it, and that the Spirit of the law is what made it an exception, and maybe even "superior" (the Spirit of the Law) to and over the letter of it (the law, or letter of the law), etc...?

I would not agree to any of this. It's written the law was broken but the people were blameless.


The letter does not and cannot make exceptions you see, it is absolute, etc, it cannot ever make exceptions, etc

The law is not capable of making decisions which is why a Judge or Lord of a law like the Sabbath has the final say.
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus shut the door on their argument. It was a debate over whether one could do good on the Sabbath see here:

Luke 14: NASB

1It happened that when He went into the house of one of the leaders of the Pharisees on the Sabbath to eat bread, they were watching Him closely. 2And there in front of Him was a man suffering from dropsy. 3And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?” 4But they kept silent. And He took hold of him and healed him, and sent him away. 5And He said to them, “Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?” 6And they could make no reply to this.
What about when doing good, in the letter of the law is clearly spelled out as doing something bad (and not just on a Sabbath day, but just in general, etc), when your doing a good thing, or a thing that is considered very very good and even holy by God, but it is clearly breaking the OT law, or at least the letter of it/them anyway (the OT laws, etc)...?

What about those kinds of instances in the OT...?

Would you say they were going by and/or obeying the "Spirit of it/them" or Behind them (The OT laws), etc, (or the letter of those laws), etc...?

God Bless!
 
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redleghunter

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What about when doing good, in the letter of the law is clearly spelled out as doing something bad (and not just on a Sabbath day, but just in general, etc), when your doing a good thing, or a thing that is considered very very good and even holy by God, but it is clearly breaking the OT law, or at least the letter of it/them anyway (the OT laws, etc)...?

What about those kinds of instances in the OT...?

Would you say they were going by and/or obeying the "Spirit of it/them" or Behind them (The OT laws), etc, (or the letter of those laws), etc...?

God Bless!
Jesus was not breaking the Law by healing on the Sabbath. (1) notice they could not answer Him and (2) Jesus is YHWH and handed the Law to Moses.

NEVER in the Law does it indicate you cannot rescue an animal or human in the Sabbath. Jesus used this opportunity to show the hardened Pharisees their human wooden interpretation of “no work” on the Sabbath.

They could not answer Him and there is a reason. The Law addresses neighbors would help their neighbors and never specified that was only 6 days a week.
 
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Neogaia777

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Matthew writes about profaning the law but are blameless. So, yes the law was broken but it was not sinful.

How is that possible, the letter is absolute, or at least it's supposed to be, etc...?

I would not agree to any of this. It's written the law was broken but the people were blameless.

How is that possible, the letter is absolute, or at least it's supposed to be, etc...?

The law is not capable of making decisions which is why a Judge or Lord of a law like the Sabbath has the final say.

The letter of the or any law is not capable of making exceptions unless it is amended after the fact, etc, and the Spirit of those laws or behind those laws would have the final say, right...? Or the Lord, or God, or YHWH, or He who is God, etc...?

Paul talks about the letter of the law and the Spirit of them, and makes some distinctions between them, etc, how the Spirit of them is superior to the letter of them, etc, now that the Spirit has come, etc, so on and so forth, etc...?

Well I say they were declared blameless or guiltless because they obeyed the Spirit of a or the law or laws, etc, over and above the letter of it/them, etc, when faced with such a decision, etc, they disobeyed the letter, but obeyed the Spirit of it/them, etc...

And so they were declared blameless, guiltless, and many cases were seen as very, very good, and very holy and righteous things, etc, even though they clearly violated the letter, etc...

God Bless!
 
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ewq1938

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How is that possible, the letter is absolute, or at least it's supposed to be, etc...?

That's when a person of authority steps in to speak about such a circumstance.
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus was not breaking the Law by healing on the Sabbath. (1) notice they could not answer Him and (2) Jesus is YHWH and handed the Law to Moses.

NEVER in the Law does it indicate you cannot rescue an animal or human in the Sabbath. Jesus used this opportunity to show the hardened Pharisees their human wooden interpretation of “no work” on the Sabbath.

They could not answer Him and there is a reason. The Law addresses neighbors would help their neighbors and never specified that was only 6 days a week.
Jesus might have been the one and only one fully capable of not being found guilty in the law by either it's letter or it's Spirit, etc, but there are other examples of people lying, intentionally being deceptive, praised for being very shrewd, etc, which usually includes one or more or those two things, etc, and other things also, involving other things clearly condemned by the law in the OT, etc, but God praised them, and not only declared them blameless or guiltless, but considered their actions very, very good, and very, very righteous and holy, etc, and much of that was due to circumstances, etc, and situations, etc, in which He or that One made exceptions, etc, of which the letter of a law that has been clearly violated can't make, etc, unless it is amended after the fact, etc, then amended again, and then added to some more, and again, and then again, and then again, etc, etc, etc, never doing the Spirit of and/or behind those total justice ever, etc, even though they could go on forever, etc...

Never ever fully expressing the God behind them, etc...

Never ever being a way to truly come to know Him, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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That's when a person of authority steps in to speak about such a circumstance.
I'll try to find more specifics, and get back to you guys, K...?

I'll probably need help though, and a lot of help maybe, etc...

Thank You Guys!

God Bless!
 
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klutedavid

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What about when doing good, in the letter of the law is clearly spelled out as doing something bad (and not just on a Sabbath day, but just in general, etc), when your doing a good thing, or a thing that is considered very very good and even holy by God, but it is clearly breaking the OT law, or at least the letter of it/them anyway (the OT laws, etc)...?

What about those kinds of instances in the OT...?

Would you say they were going by and/or obeying the "Spirit of it/them" or Behind them (The OT laws), etc, (or the letter of those laws), etc...?

God Bless!
This comes down to how you interpret the law. Some law is difficult to understand in the way it is applied to society. That's where folk like the Pharisees would interpret the law. In order to apply the law across their society, to cover situations where the law might need to be broken. In order to save or protect someone or some group.
 
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Neogaia777

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This comes down to how you interpret the law. Some law is difficult to understand in the way it is applied to society. That's where folk like the Pharisees would interpret the law. In order to apply the law across their society, to cover situations where the law might need to be broken. In order to save or protect someone or some group.
That is true, and there are those instances in order to save or protect someone, most usually God's people or one of God's people over another or the other, etc, but I also recall cases where it was also just to get rich and sometimes bankrupt or extort the other also, etc...

Again, I'm going to have to dig for more specifics, and I'll try to work on it OK, but I may have to call it a night soon here soon, as know there are other cases as well, some involving what might not seem to us to be as, well, maybe as "noble" a thing or cases, I guess you could say, etc, or as right or righteous, etc...?

And/or but most of them did involve clearly breaking the OT law, or at least the letter of it anyway, etc...?

I'll try to get back later, K, might take me a little bit though to dig up some specifics though, etc, and I'll need to get some sleep first, etc, K...?

Thanks Guys!

Goodnight, and,

God Bless!
 
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redleghunter

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Jesus might have been the one and only one fully capable of not being found guilty in the law by either it's letter or it's Spirit, etc, but there are other examples of people lying, intentionally being deceptive, praised for being very shrewd, etc, which usually includes one or more or those two things, etc, and other things also, involving other things clearly condemned by the law in the OT, etc, but God praised them, and not only declared them blameless or guiltless, but considered their actions very, very good, and very, very righteous and holy, etc, and much of that was due to circumstances, etc, and situations, etc, in which He or that One made exceptions, etc, of which the letter of a law that has been clearly violated can't make, etc, unless it is amended after the fact, etc, then amended again, and then added to some more, and again, and then again, and then again, etc, etc, etc, never doing the Spirit of and/or behind those total justice ever, etc, even though they could go on forever, etc...

Never ever fully expressing the God behind them, etc...

Never ever being a way to truly come to know Him, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
You keep saying exceptions. I don’t think that is the correct way to examine this.

There is more in the Law about helping a neighbor in need and a person who is in danger of losing their life. If a son falls in a well and is struggling to keep afloat or breaks a leg on the Sabbath is the father to say, “ok son hang in there I’ll be back when the sun goes down and the Sabbath is over.” No! There is more in the Law about protecting innocent blood from death. The father would be a murderer if he let his son or neighbor drown to death.

With David and the shew bread or bread of presence it was a choice between feeding hungry men (one anointed by God) or refusing it. There is more in the Law reference feeding and caring for a fellow Israelite than the holiness of the bread.
 
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Neogaia777

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You keep saying exceptions. I don’t think that is the correct way to examine this.

There is more in the Law about helping a neighbor in need and a person who is in danger of losing their life. If a son falls in a well and is struggling to keep afloat or breaks a leg on the Sabbath is the father to say, “ok son hang in there I’ll be back when the sun goes down and the Sabbath is over.” No! There is more in the Law about protecting innocent blood from death. The father would be a murderer if he let his son or neighbor drown to death.

With David and the shew bread or bread of presence it was a choice between feeding hungry men (one anointed by God) or refusing it. There is more in the Law reference feeding and caring for a fellow Israelite than the holiness of the bread.
You keep saying there is more "in the law", and I am saying there is more "to the law" (than just the letter of it which is very strict and binding and makes no exceptions), etc...

It's like you are saying, well, there is more in the letter of the law about this than this, etc, so since there is more in there about this than this, etc, then we choose this over this, etc, but that is not how the law works, or the OT law covenant works, just because there might be more said about one thing than another thing, doesn't mean one is more or less important, or is more or less legally binding than the other, etc, and you just simply cannot pick and choose one or more over the others or others, etc, cause that's just not the way it works, etc, and it not allowed, etc, cause it (the letter) just doesn't allow for that, etc, (but the Spirit of it/them does sometimes, etc) (anyway), you just simply cannot do that, cause you are still choosing or breaking or forsaking one or some, for what you deem is more or less important, etc, than or over the others, etc... Were just not allowed to do that, just cause there are or there is more words or rules or things in there said about this than this, etc, but/and/or/because that's just not the way it works, etc, and the letter of the law does not allow it, and makes no allowances or exceptions for it, etc, unless it is amended after the fact, etc, again and again and again, etc, to the point that it never ends, and becomes way, way to complicated, complex, and confused, etc, and still fails to convey the Spirit of or God of and/or behind it, etc, so that you can never know him or that One from it, etc...

Back to the law and the letter of the law specifically, If you've chosen one for some, etc, or some over one, or this or these ones over those ones, etc, than you have broken them all, etc, cause that is actually the way it works with the OT law, and OC law covenant, etc, the letter of it anyway, etc...

You are on the right track though in saying and/or deeming that some morals and some moral laws and rules are more important sometimes than others though, and some sometimes more or less important depending on each unique circumstance and/or situation(s), etc, you are right there, as as they say, it's the difference between the letter of a law and it's spirit, etc, which is what I'm trying to get at here...

And I do think if we examine these circumstances and unique situations closely, we can discern how God deems it in those kinds or circumstances and/or situations, etc...

But as far as the letter of the law goes, were simply not normally allowed to pick and choose some over others, etc, unless we can discern the Spirit in the situation and know his true will, in all of those unique circumstances and/or situations when and if we can, etc, and for that we have to understand the "why", etc, but/and/or because as far as the letter of the law goes, we will be forsaking some for or over others sometimes, etc, which will mean that they have technically been broken, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I do think Jesus kept and/or perfectly obeyed both the letter of the law, and it's Spirit, or the Spirit of it them though, but I think he is the only one who can or ever could do it, etc... He had to do this to be Savior, Deliverer, and Messiah, to have authority over the old, and put and end to it, by fulfiiling it (the letter) and to have authority over the new, and begin it, by fulfilling it (the Spirit), etc... I'm mainly talking about all the rest of us not him, and not capable of the same as him, etc, both in ages past, and up to now, etc, Jesus found a way, and it was a very, very, very unique circumstance and/or situation in His case that allowed Him to do it, etc, but all the rest of us just don't ever have or get that, and can't, etc, we are forced to choose one over the other sometimes, etc, a lot of the time sometimes, etc, and to make sure we are following and obeying the Spirit (over the letter), etc, I think it would serve us well to check out and/or examine some of these things (circumstances and situations) involving other people and others, where they discerned the Spirit and wisely choose it/them over the letter, etc...

God Bless!
 
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redleghunter

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You keep saying there is more "in the law", and I am saying there is more "to the law" (than just the letter of it which is very strict and binding and makes no exceptions), etc...

It's like you are saying, well, there is more in the letter of the law about this than this, etc, so since there is more in there about this than this, etc, then we choose this over this, etc, but that is not how the law works, or the OT law covenant works, just because there might be more said about one thing than another thing, doesn't mean one is more or less important, or is more or less legally binding than the other, etc, and you just simply cannot pick and choose one or more over the others or others, etc, cause that's just not the way it works, etc, and it not allowed, etc, cause it (the letter) just doesn't allow for that, etc, (but the Spirit of it/them does sometimes, etc) (anyway), you just simply cannot do that, cause you are still choosing or breaking or forsaking one or some, for what you deem is more or less important, etc, than or over the others, etc... Were just not allowed to do that, just cause there are or there is more words or rules or things in there said about this than this, etc, but/and/or/because that's just not the way it works, etc, and the letter of the law does not allow it, and makes no allowances or exceptions for it, etc, unless it is amended after the fact, etc, again and again and again, etc, to the point that it never ends, and becomes way, way to complicated, complex, and confused, etc, and still fails to convey the Spirit of or God of and/or behind it, etc, so that you can never know him or that One from it, etc...

Back to the law and the letter of the law specifically, If you've chosen one for some, etc, or some over one, or this or these ones over those ones, etc, than you have broken them all, etc, cause that is actually the way it works with the OT law, and OC law covenant, etc, the letter of it anyway, etc...

You are on the right track though in saying and/or deeming that some morals and some moral laws and rules are more important sometimes than others though, and some sometimes more or less important depending on each unique circumstance and/or situation(s), etc, you are right there, as as they say, it's the difference between the letter of a law and it's spirit, etc, which is what I'm trying to get at here...

And I do think if we examine these circumstances and unique situations closely, we can discern how God deems it in those kinds or circumstances and/or situations, etc...

But as far as the letter of the law goes, were simply not normally allowed to pick and choose some over others, etc, unless we can discern the Spirit in the situation and know his true will, in all of those unique circumstances and/or situations when and if we can, etc, and for that we have to understand the "why", etc, but/and/or because as far as the letter of the law goes, we will be forsaking some for or over others sometimes, etc, which will mean that they have technically been broken, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
Jesus did not break the Law. When he posed the question none of the Pharisees could answer Him.
 
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redleghunter

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See my post just above this one please...

Thanks,

God Bless!
I did and responded above.

You have already taken this thread way off course. I will only respond to the OP topic.
 
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klutedavid

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I do think Jesus kept and/or perfectly obeyed both the letter of the law, and it's Spirit, or the Spirit of it them though, but I think he is the only one who can or ever could do it, etc...
Correct, Jesus was the only person who could keep the law and at all levels. The rest of us will always fail in trying to be obedient to the law.

Hence, the law notifies us of our nature, our sinfulness, our resistance to that which is holy and good. The law cannot save anyone and will not deliver a self righteousness. The book of the law does not have the power to change anyone.

The law is actually the literal portrait of the promised messiah. Only Jesus could walk the path of absolute obedience to the law. After all, Jesus was not a slave to His own passions and desires.
 
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