Saved by faith alone

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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OK this is interesting. I will agree that your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 appears to be reasonable. With respect to the above I will agree that man must generally take action in choosing to accept the Word. The main thing I would disagree is the statement that "faith is something that must be first initiated by man". I would say that God initiates and we accept. Trent puts it like this:

The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and cooperating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.​

In regards to salvation: I also believe God initiates and man then responds, too. But faith is something that is required on our part initially in order to the response of God trying to reach us in order to save us.
 
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Hammster

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Hammster

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If you do not know the answer to that question - how do you know if you yourself are a new creation? Or is that something that you do not profess to know?

You seemed to suggest that obedience is the sign of being a new creation, but every person on the Earth exercises some level of obedience, from devout Christians to rank atheists. If you cannot say how much obedience, then how can you look at your own life and make an objective determination as to whether you yourself are a new creation?
Because I’m obedient and I repent when I’m not. My salvation isn’t dependent upon my actions. It’s dependent upon His promise. It’s like having kids.
 
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zoidar

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On the forums: I normally don't answer personal questions in regards to my own salvation if someone is opposed to what I believe the Bible teaches. I do this so as not to cause any arguments or back and forth finger pointing.

But to answer your question in a third person way:

#1. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Romans 8:16). For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14). “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16).

#2. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4). “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:12). In other words, we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). But if a person says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way the truth and the life (John 14:6). Can we have life without the Son? Can we be out of fellowship with Jesus and still be saved? No. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life. This “life” (mentioned in 1 John 5:12) is in context to “eternal life” mentioned in verse 11 (i.e. 1 John 5:11).​

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

It's a matter of examine oneself then?
 
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Swag365

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Because I’m obedient and I repent when I’m not. My salvation isn’t dependent upon my actions.
Well let's say that you commit a grave sin next year and do not repent for it. What happens to you then?

Do you have to repent?
 
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Hammster

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Well let's say that you commit a grave sin next year and do not repent for it. What happens to you then?

Do you have to repent?
Why wouldn’t I repent? To imply that I wouldn’t makes Him a poor Father. It makes Christ a bad Shepherd.
 
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It's a matter of examine oneself then?

Yes. A believer needs to examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith by looking to see if they are obeying the Lord Jesus Christ according to what He and His followers commanded us in the New Testament. Yes, I believe it takes time to obey all of the many commands in the NT, but the core essential things that deal with our salvation (like preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, loving one's enemies, living holy by not breaking the Moral Law like: Do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.) are things that we must do as a part of our Sanctification (after we are saved by God's grace).
 
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Swag365

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Why wouldn’t I repent? To imply that I wouldn’t makes Him a poor Father. It makes Christ a bad Shepherd.
There are many people who were baptized, generally walking the life of a devout Christian, and then later stopped believing or started living extremely sinful lives. It is often said that these people were "never really saved in the first place" or that "they were never truly among us".

If you are one of the above people, then you would not repent. And it would say nothing about our Lord's shepherdship, given that you were not among his flock.

How do you know that you are not one of the above people?

Please note here that I do not intend to imply that you are not among our Lord's flock. I am asking you how you know that you are among his flock, if your actions are insufficient to make that determination.
 
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GenemZ

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Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
Ps 62:1​


How can our salvation be from the Lord, not by works?

Why even think of works to be saved? Where do we get that idea from?

Jews were always asking Jesus things like ...
"What work must I do to gain eternal life? What works must I do?"

They were thinking that way because the Pharisees had poisoned Israel with their legalism. The Pharisees were always prescribing works one must do to be saved. Traditions of men. It became as a cruel child's game to be played by their rules. The Pharisees were the self righteous bully child on the block ruling over the little children that did not know better.

Then one day...

Jesus finally told his disciples what work will save them. Mind you. Not, "works." Works was a system of doing various invented things that was claimed to win the approval of God. The system could have a new works added on as time passed. Not saved by works. But! Saved by ONE work.



Then they asked him.. “What must we do to do the works God
requires?”

Jesus answered.. “The work of God is this: to believe in the
one he has sent.”
Jn 6:28-29


Its not by our works (plurality) we are saved. But its by one Work that we are saved!

The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”



Have we believed in Him? Then we are saved.

Anyone with a Pharisaical spirit wish to challenge that?

Yes... We also have pharisees with us today. Its an insult to God to see people trying to find ways to win His approval after they already have it!

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Eph 2:10​


He has our works uniquely our own prepared for us. Don't go looking for some works to do. If you walk in the Spirit they will be there and you may not even know you are doing a good work. For it should seem like the normal thing to do if you have become truly transformed by grace.

The works the Lord wants us to do after we are saved is for His glory. For, God gains glory from us by displaying us in the Devil's world. Good works being enabled in us by grace to do things that the Devil can not get his subjects to do. The devil competes and his works are no where as as good as God's children can. Its why we see stupid things with a pseudo-righteousness, like "save the whales." Its why we see the insane Social Justice Warrior mentality. Those are the Devil's "saints"doing works to save the Devil's world. They have their works that will not be able to compete against God's children. That is.. Children of God who walk in truth and grace. Christians walking in legalism are no better than the Devil's saints in what they do.

If it says God prepared our works for to do? Then they were prepared for us in a unique way for each one of us. For we are each unique souls with different gifts. Problems happen when religious men begin prescribing works to the people. Its the Devil's work. Like when a church is prescribing the same kinds of works for all in its congregation. The Devil has gotten his foot in that door.

If you are truly Spirit led? The first thing the Lord will do will be to lead you to seeking for good teaching. For without it? God becomes merely as you only can imagine Him to be. Finding your right pastor is one good work for all that is approved of by God. Its unique for each one of us. No popes ruling over all. One good teacher who studies and teaches. God seeks the students to get the students to seek His Word. That too, is God's work.

grace and peace
 
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Hammster

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There are many people who were baptized, generally walking the life of a devout Christian, and then later stopped believing or started living extremely sinful lives. It is often said that these people were "never really saved in the first place" or that "they were never truly among us".

If you are one of the above people, then you would not repent. And it would say nothing about our Lord's shepherdship, given that you were not among his flock.

How do you know that you are not one of the above people?

Please note here that I do not intend to imply that you are not among our Lord's flock. I am asking you how you know that you are among his flock, if your actions are insufficient to make that determination.
Who said that my actions were insufficient to make that determination?
 
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Swag365

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Who said that my actions were insufficient to make that determination?
I said it.

What you said was "I don't know" when I asked you "how much obedience does the new creation have?"

If you do not know how much obedience is required to determine that a person is a new creation, then his obedience is insufficient to determine whether he is a new creation.
 
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Swag365

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Good question and I don't think one can ever know that would be quite presumptuous of us.
Well it would seem that certainty only occurs as a special revelation from God. St. Paul seems to have had it late in his life.

If we are talking about observing actions to determine if one has a reasonable assurance of being saved on the last day (falling short of certainty) - it seems that the Catholic way offers more. For the most part if a person is baptized and has not knowingly committed any grave sins he can have confidence that he remains in a state of grace. If he commits a grave sin and receives the sacrament of reconciliation he can have confidence that he has returned to a state of grace.
 
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Hammster

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I said it.

What you said was "I don't know" when I asked you "how much obedience does the new creation have?"

If you do not know how much obedience is required to determine that a person is a new creation, then his obedience is insufficient to determine whether he is a new creation.
It’s the same amount of obedience my children need to have to remain my children.
 
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Victor in Christ

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But which set of commandments?

The commandments Noah was given?

The commandments Moses was given?

The commandments specified in Acts 15?

The commandments that Jesus gave?

The commandments that Paul gave?

What are the commandments of the Lord God, we as believers have to follow? 10 were given to Moses, but more precise definition of those commandments were revealed by Paul, Peter and others when Christ converted them.

What are the characteristics/behaviours we as believers need to obey in this NT age?
 
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Daryn

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That's not what the Bible says.
That is exactly what the word of God says.
As the Gospel declares - You die and go to the grave then Yeshua returns and raises all mankind then if you have confessed Yeshua as Lord and Savior in this life you enter Gods Kingdom on the New Earth.
If you have not confessed Yeshua as Lord then you enter the Lake of Fire where you will confess Yeshua as the Christ and be purified and enter Gods Kingdom on the New Earth.
This is the glorious Gospel message of Yeshua why do we not believe the truth as it is written clearly and its only religion that confuses and confounds mankind.

Yeshua is the savior of all men just as the word of God says. If one confesses Yeshua as the Christ they enter the New Earth and if they dont then they still enter the New Earth only via the Lake of Fire which purifies and one will confess Yeshua as the Christ.

Here are a few scriptures you may enjoy on this subject and its certainly not all as all scripture are focused on Salvation of all mankind.
Gen 3:24
Malachi 3:2-3
Hebrews 12:29
John 6:44
Mark 9:49
1Tim 2:3-6
1Tm 4:9-10
1 Corinthians 3:15
Revelation 1:14-16
Colossians 1:15-20
John 1:29
1 John 2:2
Romans 6:10
2 Corinthians 5:15
Romans 5:6
John 4:42
1 John 4:14
1 Timothy 4:9-11
Luke 19:9-10
John 12:32-33
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
1 Timothy 2:3-6
Ephesians 1:9-10
Isaiah 25:7-8
Isaiah 45:22
Psalm 98:1-3
Psalm 22:27-29
Romans 5:8, 10
Psalm 66:3-4
Psalm 110:1
Hebrews 10:12-13
Hebrews 10:14-17
Matthew 5:43-44
Isaiah 45:25
Romans 5:18-19
Hebrews 12:29,
Revelation 1:14-16
Even satan will be reconciled as the word also confirms in Colossians 1:15-20
God will not only reconcile all men unto Himself, but He will also reconcile all fallen angels. ‘Thrones or dominions or principalities or powers’, as given in verse 16, definitely includes Satan and his fallen angels.
God be with you.
 
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Okay, but that is excessive. Most parents dont foster murderous children.

But sin is sin, and my example still stands. The son could be a known thief that the law is looking for, or the son could be sexually abusive with others. The son could be a drunkard and angry. The son could be a crackhead and bring his illegal drugs into their home. There are numerous sins that can destroy a family.
 
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Hammster

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But sin is sin, and my example still stands. The son could be a known thief that the law is looking for, or the son could be sexually abusive with others. The son could be a drunkard and angry. The son could be a crackhead and bring his illegal drugs into their home. There are numerous sins that can destroy a family.
And again, it affects the communion, but not the union. A son is still a son.
 
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I believe murder affects both the union and the communion.
A dead son cannot partake in living family picnics.

True. And that would be a good point if it was relevant.
 
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