Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies. Literally or spiritually understood?

Douggg said:

BaB2, no body buys into that interpretation. Because it doesn't making any sense, in the context of Matthew 24:15-30, when the abomination of desolation triggers the great tribulation, that if not cut short no flesh would be saved.

Click to expand...

The Jewish historian Josephus was somebody, who would know more about the Jewish understanding than you do.


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

.

Marilyn C said:

We are agree on quite a lot regarding the Lord ascending to the right hand of the Father and being given all authority and power. The difference is in regards to what God`s word says concerning the various `thrones,` that Christ has authority over.

1. The highest throne, rulership is in the Godhead on the Father`s throne. That is where scripture tells us that the glorified Son of God went to. (Acts 2: 34, Ps. 110: 1, Heb. 1: 3, etc)

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE as I overcame and sat down with My Father on HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

So we see there are different authority positions granted by the Father -

1. The right hand of the Father.
2. The Son`s own throne/authority and power in the angelic realm.
3. The throne in the New Jerusalem.
4. The throne on the earth - king David`s throne.

These thrones/ authority & power all come under the Kingship & Lordship of Christ.

Click to expand...

You just totally sidestepped the Scripture presented that shows that Jesus also sits on David's throne today. We all agree that He carries divine authority over all creation. But He also hold spiritual Messianic (Davidic) authority over His new creation (true Israel).

Douggg said:

BaB2, no body buys into that interpretation. Because it doesn't making any sense, in the context of Matthew 24:15-30, when the abomination of desolation triggers the great tribulation, that if not cut short no flesh would be saved.

Click to expand...

Speak for yourself. Bab2 is right. Many of us agree with him, and disagree with your reasoning.

BABerean2 said:

The Jewish historian Josephus was somebody, who would know more about the Jewish understanding than you do.


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

.

Click to expand...

Josephus does not agree with your interpretation of the timing when Matthew 24:15 will (would in your interpretation) take place.

I want you to highlight the words of Josephus himself mentioning Matthew 24:15 or Jesus's warning in Matthew 24:15 - which is in future tense in the passage.

You have highlighted the below words of Josephus and made the text really big. But did not highlight the part in blue, which discards what Josephus wrote was about Matthew 24:15.

And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

Jospehus was not referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15. He is referring to the fact that the prophecy given to Daniel took place 480 years earlier was fulfill by Antiochus in Daniel 11.

Nothing in the quote you made of Josephus even remotely suggests Josephus was speaking about the timing of the future tense abomination of desolation Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:15.

The only thing you are proving is that John 10:22 refers to Hanukah. There is no disagreement from me regarding John 10:22. Of course the Jews were aware of Anitochus abomination of desolation act in Daniel 11. No-one is debating that.

But Matthew 24:15 is not John 10.22. Matthew 24:15-30 is the Olivet discourse, the end times verses. John 10:22 is not.

I think you have failed to understand the three futures of Israel, the Jews in the Olivet discourse, as being near term, long term, and end times.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) :

sovereigngrace said:

Speak for yourself. Bab2 is right. Many of us agree with him, and disagree with your reasoning.

Click to expand...

Josephus did not refer to Matthew 24:15. Nor Matthew 24:15-30. Jospehus was not agreeing with Bab2's timing interpretation of Matthew 24:15. Jospheus was commenting on Daniel 11, what Antiochus did - which was historic to Jesus's time. Matthew 24:15 is future of Jesus's first coming.

Matthew 24:15 triggers the great tribulation, which if not cut short no flesh on earth would be saved, and would be a time that would never be equaled again. That situation did not occur in the first century 70ad event.

BABerean2 said:

The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Click to expand...

No abomination of desolation act took place in 70ad that triggered the great tribulation that will never again be equaled once it has taken place.

Bab2, when you insert that lengthy quote of Jospehus into a post along with the huge text high lights, (but not highlight critical parts) - it just clouds everything. And is very misleading. Josephus was writing nothing about the timing of Matthew 24:15.

You are the one claiming the timing of Matthew 24:15 was 70 ad. But you cloud the issue with John 10:22, and quote from Josephus in a way that misleads the readers of your post that Jospehus was addressing your timing interpretation of Matthew 24:15 to be in 70ad.

Douggg said:

No abomination of desolation act took place in 70ad that triggered the great tribulation that will never again be equaled once it has taken place.

Bab2, when you insert that lengthy quote of Jospehus into a post along with the huge text high lights, (but not highlight critical parts) - it just clouds everything. And is very misleading. Josephus was writing nothing about the timing of Matthew 24:15.

You are the one claiming the timing of Matthew 24:15 was 70 ad. But you cloud the issue with John 10:22, and quote from Josephus in a way that misleads the readers of your post that Jospehus was addressing your timing interpretation of Matthew 24:15 to be in 70ad.

Click to expand...

The following should help for those who really want the truth about those producing clouds.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)


Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　


Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)


Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)


Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　


Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　


Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dave L said:

Peter preached the gospel of the kingdom in Acts 2. He said Jesus is on David's throne in Heaven. Also called heavenly Jerusalem above. Paul says he must rein until the resurrection on the last day when he destroys the last enemy - death.

Click to expand...

So where do you get that David`s throne is in the New Jerusalem?

sovereigngrace said:

You just totally sidestepped the Scripture presented that shows that Jesus also sits on David's throne today. We all agree that He carries divine authority over all creation. But He also hold spiritual Messianic (Davidic) authority over His new creation (true Israel).

Click to expand...

So where did I side step. This is what I wrote and you can see that I wrote in David`s throne, which was to ON the earth. And we know that the Lord has the authority over that throne and will delegate a man to sit on it, a regent, named (king) David. (Ez. 37: 24, & Jer. 30: 9)

1. The right hand of the Father.
2. The Son`s own throne/authority and power in the angelic realm.
3. The throne in the New Jerusalem.
4. The throne on the earth - king David`s throne.

BABerean2 said:

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　

Click to expand...

You have made a wrong connection. Luke 21:20 is not saying anything about the Abomination of Desolation. The Abomination of Desolation is not anywhere in the text of Luke 21.

Matthew 24:15, the Abomination of Desolation is after....
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

BABerean2 said:

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

Click to expand...

Luke 21:24 begins the long term future of Israel in exile, as Jerusalem is trampled by the Gentiles in the long term period, 2000 years thereabouts as it turned out. That's what is on my chart. As the gospel was spread to the nations during that same time.

You do not have the long term portion of Israel in exile - before the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 takes place, in your interpretation in your claim that the aod took place in 70ad. But no mention of the aod in Luke 21.

Bab2, you put every thing into the first square, when the olivet discourse is about three sections of time of Israel, the Jews future.

Dave L said:

Read Peter's sermon in Acts 2. This is the gospel of the Kingdom Jesus, Paul, and the others preached. Not heard today.

Click to expand...

So are you telling me that Jesus is sitting on David`s throne which God`s word tells us is the Father`s throne.

`...as I overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

A bit of a muddle in your thinking there.

What it means is the Christ has the authority over king David`s throne. However Christ is ON the Father`s throne above all.

Marilyn C said:

So are you telling me that Jesus is sitting on David`s throne which God`s word tells us is the Father`s throne.

`...as I overcame and sat down with my Father on HIS throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

A bit of a muddle in your thinking there.

What it means is the Christ has the authority over king David`s throne. However Christ is ON the Father`s throne above all.

Click to expand...

Just as a side comment. When we think of a throne, we think of it being a chair to accommodate one person.

I am beginning to think and visualize God's throne as closer to being something like a bench - wider than what we would normally think of a throne. One possibility. Maybe a divided bench.

Which Jesus is seated on that throne, at God's right hand.

David's throne would be here on earth, a reference to being the King of Israel.

Dave L said:

Read Peter's sermon first. Then try to understand Revelation. We should use clear scriptures to interpret the unclear.

Click to expand...

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I think that is a way of saying to Christians of the church of the Laodiceans, to him of that church that overcometh the shortcomings, will be a ruler (of course below Jesus) with Jesus in the millennium as a reward.

Dave L said:

We rule now according to Paul. And there is no millennium. If you are the body of Christ, you are also seated with Him in heaven.

“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900)

Click to expand...

No, we are not currently ruling over the unbelievers.

Dave L said:

If Jesus is God, he always has ruled the nations with a rod of iron. I see it everywhere, especially now in America.

Click to expand...

When Jesus returns to rule the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium, men will beat their sword into plowshares, and men will learn war no more.