Can anyone undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3,12, have already been fulfilled?

DavidPT said:

I guess it all depends on which US president is in office at the time. Currently Trump is in office but that could change in January 2021, assuming Biden were to get elected instead. Between Trump and Biden, I don't see Biden doing what Trump might do in a situation like that. Assuming Biden were in power at the time, and the fact Obama is a Muslim, and that Biden was his VP, I can see Biden being far more pro Muslim than Pro Israel, where, in Trump's case it would be the exact opposite.

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I've been watching a chapter in the Bible for decades now. It talks about what this one country does to those countries when they attack Israel. It's not a pretty picture.That chapter doesn't show our current president being replaced.

shilohsfoal said:

I've been watching a chapter in the Bible for decades now. It talks about what this one country does to those countries when they attack Israel. It's not a pretty picture.That chapter doesn't show our current president being replaced.

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In the NT, the Church is Israel. Keep that in mind as you study.

Christian Gedge said:

Yes, those verses. Isaiah also describes our solar system rolling up like a scroll. Mark describes heavenly bodies collapsing and landing on the surface of the earth. Revelation the same. Zephaniah predicts the end of the world, and Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away." Only Zechariah can be interpreted (with difficulty) as an earth that survives to last another 1000 years.

This is why Amils reject both errors of Premil and Preterism. The main body of end-time thought teaches that a day is coming when there will be a new heavens and a new earth! There will come the resurrection, together with our new dwelling place.

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Revelation is not talking about the dollar system rolling up.
John was standing on the ground. First there was an earthquake, then the heaven departed from the earth as a scroll being rolled together.
What he was describing was a nuclear explosion and the cloud ascending into the heavens.
It's a darn good description john gave if you watch a video of a nuclear explosion. Near perfect description.

DavidPT said:

Even though I'm Premil, and that even Premils disagree with me about this, I see Zechariah 14:16-19 taking place in the new heavens and new earth, and that the new heavens and new earth are a process that takes time to fully get to the state it will be in once the great white throne judgment has completed. The end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 can't be meaning the end of this present age, but has to be meaning once the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled. That happens in the next age after the thousand years and satan's little season.


The new heavens and new earth are the eternal age, and that I see the thousand years and satan's little season being the first thousand years and little season of the eternal age.


What we all need to be asking ourselves, why is the text in Revelation 20 indicating the martyred saints reign with Christ a thousand years rather than a thousand years and a little season? Per Premil this can be answered as follows. During the thousand years, martyred saints and Christ are ruling with a rod of iron over the survivors, such as in Zechariah 14:16-19. And once the thousand years expire they are no longer ruling with Christ in this manner. How does Amil answer this? Not what Premil is proposing here, but what I indicated we all need to be asking ourselves?

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A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time. There is no end to the reigning.

shilohsfoal said:

I've been watching a chapter in the Bible for decades now. It talks about what this one country does to those countries when they attack Israel. It's not a pretty picture.

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The Bible prophesies are quite clear, it will be the Lord Himself who will send fire to destroy those attackers. Psalms 83:13-18, Amos 1, +

shilohsfoal said:

What he was describing was a nuclear explosion and the cloud ascending into the heavens.

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That is wrong, as a nuke or even many nukes will not cause the cosmic and worldwide effects described.
ONLY an explosion of the suns surface can and will cause all the graphically described effects. A CME strike will just last for the one Day, passing on into outer space and the world will recover, establishing a One World Government to regain law and order.

We are told to be prepared spiritually and physically by taking shelter from the heat and storms. Isaiah 26:20-21 ...the Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the earth....

Regarding Zechariah 14:1-2, I say again; This prophecy is for when the leader of the OWG conquers the people living in all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Paralleled by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

DavidPT said:

There obviously is an end to the manner they are reigning, as there is also an end to the manner in which Christ has been reigning before He hands the kingdom over to God, so that God can be all in all. Christ still reigns forever and ever though, but not in the manner He was reigning since the ascension up until the end of the great white throne judgment.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


What I have underlined in verse 25, how can He still be reigning in that manner after the great white throne judgment has come and gone? How can verse 24 not be meaning after the time of the great white throne judgment? How can verse 25 not be meaning before and up to the time of the great white throne judgment? How can all of these events happen in a single 24 hour day or less, assuming the day Christ returns, that is the last day of this age, and not only are the beast and FP dealt with in that same 24 hour day, the ones killed in Revelation 19:21 they have to rise from the dead first before there can even be the great white throne judgment. And all of this is supposed to be fulfilled within this same 24 hour time period?

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Objective Premils, Amils and Postmils I have engaged with over the years see no requirement to think the reign of God's people needs to come to the end during Satan's little season. They all have the same challenge.

keras said:

The Bible prophesies are quite clear, it will be the Lord Himself who will send fire to destroy those attackers. Psalms 83:13-18, Amos 1, +

That is wrong, as a nuke or even many nukes will not cause the cosmic and worldwide effects described.
ONLY an explosion of the suns surface can and will cause all the graphically described effects. A CME strike will just last for the one Day, passing on into outer space and the world will recover, establishing a One World Government to regain law and order.

We are told to be prepared spiritually and physically by taking shelter from the heat and storms. Isaiah 26:20-21 ...the Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the earth....

Regarding Zechariah 14:1-2, I say again; This prophecy is for when the leader of the OWG conquers the people living in all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Paralleled by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

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Actually the Bible doesn't say anything about the cosmic. It talks about the earthquake and a cloud ascending from Jerusalem.
I guess you must have missed that part.

keras said:

The Bible prophesies are quite clear, it will be the Lord Himself who will send fire to destroy those attackers. Psalms 83:13-18, Amos 1, +

That is wrong, as a nuke or even many nukes will not cause the cosmic and worldwide effects described.
ONLY an explosion of the suns surface can and will cause all the graphically described effects. A CME strike will just last for the one Day, passing on into outer space and the world will recover, establishing a One World Government to regain law and order.

We are told to be prepared spiritually and physically by taking shelter from the heat and storms. Isaiah 26:20-21 ...the Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the earth....

Regarding Zechariah 14:1-2, I say again; This prophecy is for when the leader of the OWG conquers the people living in all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Paralleled by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

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According to zech, Egypt is mentioned as receiving the plague that is given to those who attack Jerusalem. Show me the verse that says God destroys Egypt.

sovereigngrace said:

A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time. There is no end to the reigning.

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1000 years signifies a day to the Lord.
The day in question is the seventh day or the sabbath.

2 Peter 3:7 And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

shilohsfoal said:

1000 years signifies a day to the Lord.

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Yes, this is an illustration of how God is nothing to God. Nothing else.

The day in question is the seventh day or the sabbath.

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All personal opinion, not scriptural. All designed to support the Premil theory.

Now, can you answer a few questions?

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

sovereigngrace said:

Yes, this is an illustration of how God is nothing to God. Nothing else.



All personal opinion, not scriptural. All designed to support the Premil theory.

Now, can you answer a few questions?

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

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Peter is talking about 1000 years.
Not 1000 generation or 1000 apples or 1000 pears.

If you want to call Peter a lier then go ahead. He just said he'd rather you not let it excape your mind but I guess there's no possible way you could except Peter's knowledge.

shilohsfoal said:

Peter is talking about 1000 years.
Not 1000 generation or 1000 apples or 1000 pears.

If you want to call Peter a lier then go ahead. He just said he'd rather you not let it excape your mind but I guess there's no possible way you could except Peter's knowledge.

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Read what the text is actually talking about and you will grasp the meaning. It has nothing to do with some supposed sin-cursed death-blighted goat-infested future millennium.

sovereigngrace said:

Read what the text is actually talking about and you will grasp the meaning. It has nothing to do with some supposed sin-cursed death-blighted goat-infested future millennium.

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He's talking about the day of the Lord.
Peter would rather you not let that one thing escape you. Can you not learn one thing from Peter?

2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

shilohsfoal said:

He's talking about the day of the Lord.
Peter would rather you not let that one thing escape you. Can you not learn one thing from Peter?

2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

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I will take your avoidance of the questions (once again) as an admission that you accept a thousand represents a large amount or an indeterminate large period of time.

Then remain ignorant of the fact.

shilohsfoal said:

Jesus will reach his goal on the third day.

Luke 13:32 But Jesus replied, "Go tell that fox, 'Look, I will keep driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach My goal.'

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What 3rd day?

shilohsfoal said:

Zech 14 is about the war of Armegeddon when Israel's neighbors take Jerusalem. Reading revelation it appears those countries control Jerusalem for three days. Then a cloud ascends into the heaven from Jerusalem. Not a good sign there for those Ole boys.

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Sounds like the opposite of what happened at Masada (Siege of Masada - Wikipedia). Instead of falling from the cliffs, they ascend!

Tone said:

Sounds like the opposite of what happened at Masada (Siege of Masada - Wikipedia). Instead of falling from the cliffs, they ascend!

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I once thought that was a good thing till I figured out what kind of cloud it is.
How many clouds do you know that start from the earth and ascend into the heavens?

I will give you a hint. There is an earthquake associated with it in the Bible.