Can anyone undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3,12, have already been fulfilled?

[DavidPT]

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.


There is still verses 16-19 to consider, and that they can't even be fulfilled until these 2 verses above are fulfilled first. We therefore need to keep that in mind.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What can't be ignored in verse 16 is this part....shall even go up from year to year. That obviously has to mean, when verse 16 begins coming to pass, there have to be years following, in order for these in verse 16 to fulfill during.

If anyone can undeniably prove Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that would indicate it's highly probable that verses 16-19 are coming to pass in this age, though it obviously wouldn't be meaning in a literal sense, since no would be literally going up to Jerusalem from year to year, where currently the occupants are unbelieving Jews who have main control of that city.


But if one can't prove Zechariah 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that clearly indicates that neither can they prove verses 16-19 have already been fulfilled.

That has to mean the fulfillment of both Zechariah 14:2-3 and verses 16-19, these are future still. That has to mean that once verses 16-19 begin coming to pass, there has to be extra years remaining in order for them to go up from year to year or not go up from year to year.

If we are already in the end of this age, as we speak, and when verses 16-19 begin coming to pass, where is that going to logically place the needed years that they are required to go up during? Is it not going to place these years post the 2nd coming? What should we assume about these events that are recorded in verses 16-19, should they be coming to pass post the 2nd coming? That it will be like that for all eternity? How could it not be if there is no period of time post the 2nd coming that could prevent that from happening? What we need to ask ourselves, then. Is there a period of time post the the 2nd coming that could maybe prevent that from happening? Yes there is, as a matter fact. It's the same period of time Amils claim we have already been living in, the thousand years.

The way it looks to me, unless one can first prove that Zech 14:2-3 has already been fulfilled, that same one for sure can't prove that I am wrong to conclude that verses 16-19 will be coming to pass post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming instead.



I would like to point out a cpl of more things as well. Not only does one need to prove verse 2-3 have already been fulfilled, one has to also prove verse 12 has already been fulfilled.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

What is recorded in this verse, verse 12, is not what happens to the ones being surrounded in Jerusalem, but happens to the ones surrounding them. If 70 AD is meant in verse 2, I would love to see anyone prove that verse 12 is what happened to the Romans at the time. As to verse 12, verses 16-19 can't even come to pass until verse 12 comes to pass first. In verse 12 there are no survivors that came against Jerusalem in verse 2. In verses 16-19 there are survivors of the nations that came against Jerusalem in verse 2. How do we square this to where there is no contradiction, then? Simple. The ones meant in verse 12 actually fought against Jerusalem. The ones in verses 16-19, though they were of these same nations that fought against Jerusalem, they themselves never fought against Jerusalem, so God decides to spare them instead.

The point of this thread can then be summed up like this. If it can be proved that Zechariah 14:2-3, plus verse 12, has already been fulfilled, then there is good chance Premils have been misunderstanding verses 16-19 this entire time, since Premils see them fitting post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming instead. It is verses such as 16-19 that further lead me personally to conclude Premil rather than Amil. If verses 16-19 are meaning post the 2nd coming, but that there is no period of time following the 2nd coming, this would indicate that verses 16-19 will be like that throughout all of eternity since there would be no period of time, such as a thousand years and a little season after the 2nd coming, in order to prevent what is recorded in verses 16-19 from continuing forever and ever like that.

Assuming verses 16-19 are post the 2nd coming, what seems more reasonable, then? That what is recorded in those verses, that it continues like that forever and ever? Or, that there is a period of time after the 2nd coming that prevents those things from continuing forever and ever like that?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Zech 14 is about the war of Armegeddon when Israel's neighbors take Jerusalem. Reading revelation it appears those countries control Jerusalem for three days. Then a cloud ascends into the heaven from Jerusalem. Not a good sign there for those Ole boys.

 

[DavidPT]

Zech 14 is about the war of Armegeddon when Israel's neighbors take Jerusalem. Reading revelation it appears those countries control Jerusalem for three days. Then a cloud ascends into the heaven from Jerusalem. Not a good sign there for those Ole boys.

I agree, yet some still insist Zechariah 14:2-3, 12, has already been fulfilled, in 70 AD I guess. They either need to undeniably prove it or quit insisting Premil is not a valid position. Because if Zechariah 14:16-19 is future still, that undeniably places the years they are to go up, post the 2nd coming.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I agree, yet some still insist Zechariah 14:2-3, 12, has already been fulfilled, in 70 AD I guess. They either need to undeniably prove it or quit insisting Premil is not a valid position. Because if Zechariah 14:16-19 is future still, that undeniably places the years they are to go up, post the 2nd coming.

I know how you feel. I've seen some attempt to say this verse has already been fulfilled.
Zechariah 14:12 KJV: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
They don't understand this is the beast being cast into a lake of fire after they have killed the two witnesses and take Jerusalem. .
It's going to get hot in Jerusalem and only those who can walk through a furnace will be left to talk about it.

 

[Mr. M]

I was wondering where this fits in, at all. Apologies if this is off topic.
Isaiah 11:
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men crossover dry-shod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.

 

[keras]

The holy people of God, now every faithful Christian, who will be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-12, soon after the Lords Day of wrath clears and cleanses all that area, do get taken over by the armies of the One World Govt; led by the Anti-Christ, as described in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:13

This will happen at the midpoint of the last 7 years before Jesus Returns and it is because they failed to trust solely on the Lord for their protection.

Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:14-15 tell of a treaty, a peace treaty for a seven year period, made between ‘many’ of the citizens of Beulah and the leader of the OWG, that God calls; a treaty with death.

We see in Daniel 11:32, how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, those who agreed to this seven year peace treaty with the AC, and those who refused to violate their covenant with God. This conquest and division of the Lord’s people, at the mid point of the seven years, is seen in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-7

Then in Revelation 12:6-17, those two groups of Christians are described; the faithful ones are taken to a place of safety during the 3 1/2 years, [or 42 months or 1260 days] and the other group remain, as per Revelation 12:17.
Then Jesus Returns, destroys the Anti-Christ's army and chains him up. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His people from their place of safety and all who have refused the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:31, to where He is; that is in Jerusalem, from where He will rule the world for 1000 years.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The holy people of God, now every faithful Christian, who will be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-12, soon after the Lords Day of wrath clears and cleanses all that area, do get taken over by the armies of the One World Govt; led by the Anti-Christ, as described in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:13

This will happen at the midpoint of the last 7 years before Jesus Returns and it is because they failed to trust solely on the Lord for their protection.

Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:14-15 tell of a treaty, a peace treaty for a seven year period, made between ‘many’ of the citizens of Beulah and the leader of the OWG, that God calls; a treaty with death.

We see in Daniel 11:32, how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, those who agreed to this seven year peace treaty with the AC, and those who refused to violate their covenant with God. This conquest and division of the Lord’s people, at the mid point of the seven years, is seen in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-7

Then in Revelation 12:6-17, those two groups of Christians are described; the faithful ones are taken to a place of safety during the 3 1/2 years, [or 42 months or 1260 days] and the other group remain, as per Revelation 12:17.
Then Jesus Returns, destroys the Anti-Christ's army and chains him up. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His people from their place of safety and all who have refused the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:31, to where He is; that is in Jerusalem, from where He will rule the world for 1000 years.[/QUOTE

QUOTE]

Firstly, the king of the North is no antichrist and secondly his military will be kicking some Muslim butt. We have the abomination that causes desolation and after they rise up and take Jerusalem we will use it on them. We will destroy many cities and countries just like that.They should know not to mess with us but they don't have any sense.

Daniel 11:44 KJV: But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The Amillennial view considers the term ‘thousand’ in Revelation 20 as figurative representing a long, indeterminable period from Christ unto his second coming. During this millennial period the New Testament harvest is reaped, then, in the latter days, Satan will be loosed for a season resulting in deception and apostasy. Zech 12-14 fits into that period.

You are right that some Amils identify it with AD 70. But others (like me) see AD 70 as a precursor of a battle yet to come. After that Christ will return and the earth will be consumed in fire. It will not survive the cataclysms to stand for another 1000 years. Instead there will be a new heavens and earth in which the righteous will dwell with God eternally.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The Amillennial view considers the term ‘thousand’ in Revelation 20 as figurative representing a long, indeterminable period from Christ unto his second coming. During this millennial period the New Testament harvest is reaped, then, in the latter days, Satan will be loosed for a season resulting in deception and apostasy. Zech 12-14 fits into that period.

You are right that some Amils identify it with AD 70. But others (like me) see AD 70 as a precursor of a battle yet to come. After that Christ will return and the earth will be consumed in fire. It will not survive the cataclysms to stand for another 1000 years. Instead there will be a new heavens and earth in which the righteous will dwell with God eternally.

Some amills believe the first resurrection of the dead who did not worship the beast have been reigning with Christ at Jerusalem for the last 2000 years?
So when do they expect Gog to Invade Israel and surround those saints who reign with Christ at Jerusalem?

 

[Studyman]

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

What is recorded in this verse, verse 12, is not what happens to the ones being surrounded in Jerusalem, but happens to the ones surrounding them. If 70 AD is meant in verse 2, I would love to see anyone prove that verse 12 is what happened to the Romans at the time.

This is great David,

This is what we need to do. Look at the Scriptures, and if a modern religious teaching contradicts it, point this out and ask the questions.

I have never believed the whole "70 AD was this prophesy fulfilled" doctrine, but I never saw what you have so eloquently pointed out today.

Excellent post, perfect questions.

Good for you, I thank you for it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Some amills believe the first resurrection of the dead who did not worship the beast have been reigning with Christ at Jerusalem for the last 2000 years?
So when do they expect Gog to Invade Israel and surround those saints who reign with Christ at Jerusalem?

The heavenly city, yes.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The phrase "the beloved city" simply refers the redeemed of God who are on earth before Jesus comes who will be surrounded by the wicked (Gog and Magog).

 

[sovereigngrace]

I agree, yet some still insist Zechariah 14:2-3, 12, has already been fulfilled, in 70 AD I guess. They either need to undeniably prove it or quit insisting Premil is not a valid position. Because if Zechariah 14:16-19 is future still, that undeniably places the years they are to go up, post the 2nd coming.

You need to read the historic accounts of AD70 especially Josephus and note how horrendous the destruction was and deep the persecution and lasting the consequences, and then you would not be a dismissive about the gravity of AD70.

The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

 

[Studyman]

You need to read the historic accounts of AD70 especially Josephus and note how horrendous the destruction was and deep the persecution and lasting the consequences, and then you would not be a dismissive about the gravity of AD70.

The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

That still doesn't answer the question he posed. In the Scripture, it was the attackers that were cursed, not the victims.

Also, who was it, Spiritually Speaking, that was against the "true Jerusalem"? Was it not the Jews? Who was it that led God's People astray?

 

[shilohsfoal]

The heavenly city, yes.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The phrase "the beloved city" simply refers the redeemed of God who are on earth before Jesus comes who will be surrounded by the wicked (Gog and Magog).

So you believe the beloved city is actually the entire world surrounded by the wicked.
Why would the entire world be called the beloved city?
And according to ezekiel, Gog Invades Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So you believe the beloved city is actually the entire world surrounded by the wicked.
Why would the entire world be called the beloved city?
And according to ezekiel, Gog Invades Israel.

Please read what I wrote. The “beloved city“ is the redeemed. That is not hard to grasp.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That still doesn't answer the question he posed. In the Scripture, it was the attackers that were cursed, not the victims.

Also, who was it, Spiritually Speaking, that was against the "true Jerusalem"? Was it not the Jews? Who was it that led God's People astray?

Please explain what you’re saying and forward Scripture for what you mean.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Please read what I wrote. The “beloved city“ is the redeemed. That is not hard to grasp.

Then the redeemed are in the beloved CITY which is Jerusalem. I'm sure it's not New York.
According to Ezekiel, Gog invades Israel. Not China.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Then the redeemed are in the beloved CITY which is Jerusalem. I'm sure it's not New York.

We are that city.

 

[shilohsfoal]

We are that city.

So do you also claim to be the mountains of Israel where scripture says Gog will Invade?

 

[DavidPT]

The Amillennial view considers the term ‘thousand’ in Revelation 20 as figurative representing a long, indeterminable period from Christ unto his second coming. During this millennial period the New Testament harvest is reaped, then, in the latter days, Satan will be loosed for a season resulting in deception and apostasy. Zech 12-14 fits into that period.

You are right that some Amils identify it with AD 70. But others (like me) see AD 70 as a precursor of a battle yet to come. After that Christ will return and the earth will be consumed in fire. It will not survive the cataclysms to stand for another 1000 years. Instead there will be a new heavens and earth in which the righteous will dwell with God eternally.

Where does this part fit, then? shall even go up from year to year. How can that even come to pass unless there are years remaining in order for them to go up from year to year, and that if they refuse, no rain? This can't even come to pass until after verses 2-3, 12, have come to pass first. Do you have an answer for that part? Do you have a period of time where verses 16-19 can fit?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Verses 17-19 are nonsensical if there is no time remaining for this part---shall even go up from year to year---once verse 16 begins coming to pass. Clearly---shall even go up from year to year----can't come to pass in a single day nor even a single year. Multiple years are required in order for these things to come to pass. Currently I'm convinced that verses 16-19 only make sense per Premil. But if it can make sense per Amil as well, what do you propose that makes it fit Amil better than it fits Premil, then?

In verse 18 it indicates there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In verse 12 it also indicates there shall be a plague. Is the plague in verse 12 the same plague meant in versse 18? I would have to say no. The reason why, the reasons for the plagues are not the same. In verse 12 the reason for the plague is because they have been fighting against Jerusalem in verse 2. In verse 18 the reason for the plague is because they are refusing to go up from year to year after they are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem in verse 2.