THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord · Jun 4, 2020

ClementofA said:
What? Are you saying your opinions are Gods word? You didn't answer my questions, yet claim falsely i don't answer your posts:

Of course it's - your opinion - when you say say certain passages of scripture support your endless annihilationism viewpoints. Because the verses themselves don't say what you say. That's why you have to add your own commentary on them, which is your own words, not the words of scripture. If the Scriptures plainly supported your view, everyone would agree with you & you would only have to quote the Scriptures. Not add your comments. And most Christians throughout church history have disagreed with your endless annihilation opinion. Your opinions & commentary are not "God's Word", they are your words. I'm surprised this even has to be explained. Is English not your first language? Do you consider your opinions infallible? Are your opinions the Word of God?

Do you also believe the following from BDAG which you ignored last time i posted it:

Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows
according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…”
https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
(2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
"many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Repitition and the same old cut and paste without addressing the content of my posts already shared with you. It is the scripture context that determines the many word meaning to αἰώνιος aionion's from JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. The Greek context to these scriptures is the meaning; eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG)

Already claims in this post have been already addressed in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.

All of the above linked posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek and all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier that disagree with you.

This is the proof and the evidence you seek to deny by turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe. For me only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the very word of God.

Your simply wrong here dear friend.

ClementofA · Jun 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
All you have posted are examples of different context meaning of αἰώνιος aionion from other scriptures that are not relevant to the use of αἰώνιος aionion in JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7.

They are relevant because they - prove - the word aionion is used of finite durations. OTOH you've never proven even from one example that aionion ever means "eternal". So the weight of evidence is heavily against you. Can you show me a single example of any statement that proves aionion means "eternal" in that context? I think you have a lot of work to do.

And contrary to your false statement above, i've provided scholars & lexicons who disagree with you, as i've posted in multiple posts to you in this thread.

Also, i've posted the following to you & you had no reply except your "popes" you blindly trust in:

LoveGodsWord said:
Nonsense! Your repeating yourself again. As shown earlier the Greek and 27 independent bible translations agree with me. None of these agree with you.

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Your popes, again, you have blind faith in. What did Jesus say, the blind lead the blind?

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer.8:8)

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three | Concordant Publishing Concern

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

-----------------------------------------------

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was
not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 4, 2020

ClementofA said:
They are relevant because they - prove - the word aionion is used of finite durations. OTOH you've never proven even from one example that aionion ever means "eternal". So the weight of evidence is heavily against you. Can you show me a single example of any statement that proves aionion means "eternal" in that context? I think you have a lot of work to do.

And contrary to your false statement above, i've provided scholars & lexicons who disagree with you, as i've posted in multiple posts to you in this thread.

Also, i've posted the following to you & you had no reply except your "popes" you blindly trust in:

"An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam, is a form of defeasible[1] argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument. It is well known as a fallacy,..."

Your popes, again, you have blind faith in. What did Jesus say, the blind lead the blind?

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jer.8:8)

Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three | Concordant Publishing Concern

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

-----------------------------------------------

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was
not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Sorry dear friend I guess we will have to agree to disagree. This post of yours is more repeated cut and paste that has already been addressed and proven to be unbiblical. Do you have anything new to share? For me as posted to you earlier you have ignored the scripture context application to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown in the Lexicons. The Greek and 27 bible translations disagree with you here.

This has already been shown in detail and addressed in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.

It is the scripture context that determines the many word meaning to αἰώνιος aionion's from JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7. The Greek context to these scriptures is the meaning; eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG)

All of the above linked posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek and all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier that disagree with you.

This is the proof and the evidence you seek to deny by turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe. For me only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the very word of God.

Your simply wrong here dear friend.

ClementofA · Jun 5, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This is the proof and the evidence you seek to deny by turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe.

What you evidently don't realize is your so-called "proof" is "turning to the writings of men", which is exactly what BDAG & your 27 English so-called translations (interpretations, paraphrases) of biased fallible human opinions are.

For you constantly appeal to the single book of a single dead man, Danker of BDAG, who you did not even know was dead, whom you suggested i write to, and which book you erroneously thought had multiple authors. So who is "turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe". You are.

Moreover, you constantly appeal to the author of BDAG, which actually supports universalism, in order to oppose universalism. Talk about shooting your own doctrine of endless annihilation in the feet. You continuously appeal to him like he's some kind of infallible pope of yours. By the way, Danker also opposes your SDA doctrine of "soul sleep" under his lexical entry re Hades. As do other lexicons.

Furthermore you also appeal to 27 English so called Bible translations, which are nothing but the interpretations, prejudiced opinions and "writings of men", not Scripture. For Scripture was never written in English but in ancient languages, including Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. So your so-called "proof" is based upon "the writings of men".

Your 27 translations are biased pro endless punishment club advocates supporting their doctrine. What else do you think they would do. How else to sell Bibles to their churches. OTOH you lightly dismiss, without hardly a word, all the translations, scholars, lexicons & early church fathers who oppose them. Instead of addressing my posted comments re them you prefer to bury your head in the sand & repeatedly parrot your same comments and papal authorities, i.e. "writings of men".

LoveGodsWord said:
For me only God's Word is true dear friend and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the very word of God.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but BDAG and your blindly believed in 27 headed parrot pope are not "God's Word." That's where you are confused. They are the English language teachings and "writings of men". God's Word, the Scriptures, were not written in English. And a pope is not Scripture.

Could most modern translations be in error?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

LoveGodsWord · Jun 5, 2020

ClementofA said:
What you evidently don't realize is your so-called "proof" is "turning to the writings of men", which is exactly what BDAG & your 27 English so-called translations (interpretations, paraphrases) of biased fallible human opinions are.

No dear friend you are mistaken. It is called the written Word of God.

ClementofA said:
For you constantly appeal to the single book of a single dead man, Danker of BDAG, who you did not even know was dead, whom you suggested i write to, and which book you erroneously thought had multiple authors. So who is "turning to the writings of men outside of the bibe". You are.

Nonsense. You have been shown your misapplication and use of more than one Lexicon in application to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; JOHN 3:36 and JUDE 1:7 by trying to argue a different scripture context and word meaning that is not relevant to the scriptures above. You provided incomplete Lexicons that did not address the contexts to the above scriptures and tried to apply the different words meanings αἰώνιος aionion to the above scriptures when they were in reference to other scripture contexts. I have read your sourced Lexicon links and none of them agreed with the claims you were making in regards to BDAG they were just not as comprehensive as BDAG and did not include the scripture contexts of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; JOHN 3:36 and JUDE 1:7. You have not been able to provide anything from the bible to support anything you have claimed here.

ClementofA said:
Moreover, you constantly appeal to the author of BDAG, which actually supports universalism, in order to oppose universalism. Talk about shooting your own doctrine of endless annihilation in the feet. You continuously appeal to him like he's some kind of infallible pope of yours. By the way, Danker also opposes your SDA doctrine of "soul sleep" under his lexical entry re Hades. As do other lexicons.

I am sorry dear friend I am not interested in your opnions. Let's talk scripture please. You have only been provided Gods' Word and God's Word is not mine but God's. In response you provide your words which are not God's Word but yours. I know who I believe and it is not you. Yes you say you disagree. These are your words and there are 27 independant bible translations (the majority of bibles) and their independant groups of Greek scholars who are all in agreement that the Koine Greek here disagree with you and your application of αἰώνιος aionion to JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7.

ClementofA said:
Furthermore you also appeal to 27 English so called Bible translations, which are nothing but the interpretations, prejudiced opinions and "writings of men", not Scripture. For Scripture was never written in English but in ancient languages, including Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. So your so-called "proof" is based upon "the writings of men". Your 27 translations are biased pro endless punishment club advocates supporting their doctrine. What else do you think they would do. How else to sell Bibles to their churches. OTOH you lightly dismiss, without hardly a word, all the translations, scholars, lexicons & early church fathers who oppose them. Instead of addressing my posted comments re them you prefer to bury your head in the sand & repeatedly parrot your same comments and papal authorities, i.e. "writings of men".

No. The 27 independent bible translations that agree with the Lexicons of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 and disagree with you are from 27 groups of independent Koine Greek scholars all of which separately came to the same conclusions separately from each bible groups translators which also agree with the Lexicon context translations of αἰώνιος aionion meaning eternal; a period of unending duration, without end (BDAG). Then we have you qouting you trying to tell everyone here each of those 27 independent groups of Koine Greek Scholars and the Lexicons all have it wrong and your right? As I said earlier go write to each of those bible translations groups of Scholars and go and tell them they are all wrong and your right if you disagree. As for me, I believe God is in control of His Word and you have been proven to be in error as shown in the linked posts below.

ClementofA said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but BDAG and your blindly believed in 27 headed parrot pope are not "God's Word." That's where you are confused. They are the English language teachings and "writings of men". God's Word, the Scriptures, were not written in English. And a pope is not Scripture.

Not really dear friend. I choose to believe God's Word all your claims were proven to be false claims or claims of error excluding context or misapplication of the use of a Lexicon in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked.

All of the above posts prove the scripture contexts of JOHN 3:36; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and JUDE 1:7 shown with original Greek all agree with the 27 independent bible translations provided earlier. Your simply wrong here dear friend.

ClementofA said:
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek

Nonsense. The Greek word αἰώνιος aionion has many meanings depending on the scripture contexts and application. All you have shown is misinterpretation of scripture misapplication of scripture contexts and misapplication of the use of a Greek Lexicon as proven in the linked posts above.

ClementofA said:
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

Probably a left over from your cut and paste. No one believes in endless punishment or have I ever argued for it. Now where is your scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlating life after the second coming. You have none do you because the scriptures teach that the unrepentant wicked receive only the second death in the lake of fire and are destroyed. The bubble of UNIVERSALISM has popped dear friend. We ought to believe God's Word over the teachings and traditions of men the break the commandments of God and are seeking to add to the book of Revelation....

REVELATION 22:19 If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You have already been provided the scriptures showing that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed at the second death after the second coming here....

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

You have no scripture to show that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. God's Word says the wicked are destroyed, do not receive life, are not written in the Lambs book of life and devoured and burned up like the wicked of Sodom and Gomorrha. What else do you want as proof? For me only God's Word is true and UNIVERSALISM has none for their claims that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS when the bible says they will be destroyed in the second death.

There is no salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The teachings of UNIVERSALISM are not biblical.

Hope this helps.

FineLinen · Jun 5, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
There is no salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. The teachings of UNIVERSALISM are not biblical.

Hope this helps.

You fail to grasp so much in your wee world! I realize this will never be addressed by you, but I will try try again. Ta pavnte declares the all begins & ends in Him. Not part of the all, the radical "the all".

Nothing = adynateō

Luke 1:37

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

Romans 8:38

"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus."

adynateō =

Cannot be done.

Impossible.

Our God is the God of UN (limited) ! !

"My dear friend, clear your mind of can't." -Samuel Johnson-

LoveGodsWord · Jun 5, 2020

FineLinen said:
You fail to grasp so much in your wee world! I realize this will never be addressed by you, but I will try try again. Ta pavnte declares the all begins & ends in Him. Not part of the all, the radical "the all".

Nothing = adynateō

Luke 1:37

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

Romans 8:38

"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus."

adynateō =

Cannot be done.

Impossible.

Our God is the God of UN (limited) ! !

"My dear friend, clear your mind of can't." -Samuel Johnson-

FineLinen · Jun 5, 2020

“As far as I am concerned, anyone who hopes for the universal reconciliation of all creatures with God must already believe that this would be the best possible ending to the Christian story; and such a person has then no excuse for imagining that God could bring any but the best possible ending to pass without thereby being in some sense a failed creator.” - David Bentley Hart-

God consummates what He begins !

LoveGodsWord · Jun 5, 2020

FineLinen said:
“As far as I am concerned, anyone who hopes for the universal reconciliation of all creatures with God must already believe that this would be the best possible ending to the Christian story; and such a person has then no excuse for imagining that God could bring any but the best possible ending to pass without thereby being in some sense a failed creator.” - David Bentley Hart-

God consummates what He begins !

LoveGodsWord · Jun 5, 2020

And here we still are 92 pages and 1830 posts latter and not a single scripture from UNIVERSALISTS that state that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive eternal life?

Yet it is God's Word alone that says..

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

ClementofA · Jun 5, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No one believes in endless punishment or have I ever argued for it.

Wrong again. See:

endless punishment - Yahoo Search Results

And what do you think the "punishment" in Mt.25:46 is? Temporary? Endless? For 2 weeks?

Der Alter said:
Good. "Aionios" in Matthew 25:46 means eternal./everlasting.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the universal salvation verses i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

XYZ said:
It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

XYZ said:
It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

XYZ said:
Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

ClementofA · Jun 6, 2020

I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

LoveGodsWord said:
REVELATION 22:19 If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

*******************************************************

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

FineLinen · Jun 6, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
And here we still are 92 pages and 1830 posts latter and not a single scripture from UNIVERSALISTS that state that the unrepentant wicked [after the second coming] receive eternal life?

This continues to be your problem, you think your words are synonomous with His.

Again and again and again: there is NO time frame regarding the ages to come and the ultimate reconciliation of the ta pavnte unto Abba.

NONE !

LoveGodsWord · Jun 6, 2020

FineLinen said:
This continues to be your problem, you think your words are synonomous with His.

Again and again and again: there is NO time frame regarding the ages to come and the ultimate reconciliation of the ta pavnte unto Abba.

NONE !

LoveGodsWord · Jun 6, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No one believes in endless punishment or have I ever argued for it.

Your response...

ClementofA said:
Wrong again. See:
endless punishment - Yahoo Search Results

Was in reference to me not beleviing in the false doctrine of eternal torment burning in Hell.

ClementofA said:
And what do you think the "punishment" in Mt.25:46 is? Temporary? Endless? For 2 weeks?

Second death in the lake of fiew where all the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his angels are destroyed after the second coming as shown in the scriptures *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; JOHN 3:36; JOHN 5:28-29; REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.

ClementofA said:
These translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the universal salvation verses i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

The CONTEXT of MATTHEW 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: BUT THE RIGHTEOUSS TO ENTERNAL LIFE..

The context of MATTHEW 25:46 is v41 that descibes the PUNISHMENT of the wicked and the devil and his Angels...

MATTHEW 25:41 [41], Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

Q1. ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE WHAT IS THE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT OF THE UNREPENTANT WICKED?

...........

A1. 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 [9], Who shall be PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and from the glory of his power;
The punishment of the unrepentant wicked is "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

and the CONTEXT to MATTHEW 25:46 which is v41....

MATTHEW 25:41 [41], Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

So the punishment being referred to in MATTHEW 25:46 = THE EVERLSATING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels which is ETERNAL DESTRUCTION. Did you catch that? Yep THE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT = ETERNAL DESTRUCTION FROM ETERNAL FIRE

WHAT IS THE EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE UNREPENTANT WICKED AND THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS?

REVELATION 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

REVELATION 20:15 And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.............

CONCLUSION: THE PUNISHMENT BEING REFERRED TO FROM MATTHEW 25:46 IS THE SAME PUNISHEMENT FOR THE UNREPENTANT WICKED AS THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS = EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE EVERLASTING FIRE FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

MATTHEW 25:41 [41], Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

REVELATION 21:7-8 [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.[8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

.............

SUMMARY: So what we are talking about here dear friend is in MATTHEW 25:41-46 the WORD OF GOD ALONE defines the PUNISHMENT of the wicked and the devil and his Angels is DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE (God's Word's not mine)

None of the bible translations agree with UNIVERSALISM and none say that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming therefore disagree with you. In fact I can use either the 27 bible translations that disagree with your interpretation of the scripture or use the bible translations you have provided above to come to the same outcome the bible has provided with the scriptures shared above. Outcome the scriptures prove the teachings of UNIVERSALISM are in error

The everlasting punishment of the unrepentant wicked is the second death *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8 (no more life - JOHN 3:36) As proven above it does not make much difference if we use the translations you have provided above or the 27 tranlslations that disagree with you.

ClementofA said:
Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Everything else here is irrelavant or is your continious cut and paste spamming already been addressed in detail throughout this thread or what has already been posted in this post.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 6, 2020

ClementofA said:
I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.
Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory."

Not really dear friend all your claims here have been proven to be in error as addressed in the scriptures provided in these posts that prove that you disregard context. Even the scriptures you provide here that have already been addressed through out this thread already prove they are in reference to Gods' saints and not the unrepentant wicked. So your claims are just your words shown to be in error and more recently here in posts # 1591 linked; posts # 1592 linked; posts # 1653 linked; posts # 1656 linked; post # 1657 linked; posts # 1658 linked; posts # 1659 linked; post # 1761 linked; posts # 1771 linked post # 1782 linked; post 1783 linked; post # 1790 linked; post # 1791 linked. All you have managed to do is spam UNIVERSALIST website materials without addressing any contect of my posts and scriptures shared with you. Give it up dear friend your claims have been shown to be false and in error. It is up to you to receive God's blessings or not.

Now let's be honest dear friend. Your adding to the book of REVELATION in which we are warned not to do *REVELATION 22:19. Now please show me from the scriptures where does it say that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive everlasting life when the God's Word alone says...

1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.

Sorry dear friend, it seems God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this helps.

FineLinen · Jun 6, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hope this helps.

Quarantine Smiles

ClementofA · Jun 6, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
None of the bible translations agree with UNIVERSALISM

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

*****************************************************************

I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

ClementofA · Jun 6, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
All you have managed to do is spam UNIVERSALIST website materials without addressing any contect of my posts and scriptures shared with you.

Nonsense.

LoveGodsWord said:
@ClementofA well dear friend I had a look at the last few posts of yours and could see it is the same cut and paste to what has already been addressed with no new content that has already been addressed that you simply reposted without addressing my posts to you. If you want to have a discussion let's talk.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

There are also many other points in other posts to you you haven't addressed besides those.

*******************************************************

*For we are so preciously loved by God that we cannot even comprehend it. No created being can ever know how much and how sweetly and tenderly God loves them. It is only with the help of his grace that we are able to persevere in spiritual contemplation with endless wonder at his high, surpassing, immeasurable love which our Lord in his goodness has for us.* - Julian of Norwich-

“The only way to find the meaning and purpose of your life is to find it in a mystery . . . the mystery of Him . . . and to make that mystery the cause of everything you do . . . and the reason . . . for everything you are.” -Jonathan Cahn-

LoveGodsWord · Jun 6, 2020

ClementofA said:
Nonsense.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

There are also many other points in other posts to you you haven't addressed besides those.

*******************************************************

*For we are so preciously loved by God that we cannot even comprehend it. No created being can ever know how much and how sweetly and tenderly God loves them. It is only with the help of his grace that we are able to persevere in spiritual contemplation with endless wonder at his high, surpassing, immeasurable love which our Lord in his goodness has for us.* - Julian of Norwich-

“The only way to find the meaning and purpose of your life is to find it in a mystery . . . the mystery of Him . . . and to make that mystery the cause of everything you do . . . and the reason . . . for everything you are.” -Jonathan Cahn-

Nonsense. Your not being very honest. How many times have you spammed this cut and paste already proven false and addressed in post # 1575 linked. More repeititious cut and paste without addressing any of the content of my posts to you.

Your just repeating yourself.

Hope this helps.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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