THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord said:

CONCLUSION: 2 THESSALONIANS shows God's vengence to the unrepentant wicked is eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord at the when? Yep SECOND COMING v7 and v9. That wasn't so hard now was it?

Your welcome.

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2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!



Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

LoveGodsWord said:

I think I am going to give up responding to you as you do not read my posts. You do not address the content in my posts that prove why your in error and all your doing is cuting and pasting the same content over and over. So from now on if you post the same content that has already been addressed and you ignore it. Please do not expect me to chase my posts up to you. If I do not repond to you now you know why. Responded to this already like like your other repititions. See post # 1420 linked. Please do not expect me to chase up posts that have already been addressed in the future. If someone has spent the time responding to you please show some courtesy in responding back instead of cut and paste repitition. It is you that has not responded by ignorin the scriptures and content of the posts shared with you. I do not mind you disagreeing with anything I have been sharing with you but at the very least if you disagree perhaps you can show why like I do for you?

Hope this is helpful

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Your post 1420 didn't refute anything i said here in the following, so my point stands:

Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism, SDAism, etc.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

LoveGodsWord said:

DITTO" already address a number of times already your just repeating yourself again. How about you answer my reply? Most recent one to ROMANS 5:18-19 here linked. The last section of this your post here is only filller and not relevant to anyones argument accept your claims

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

Which was also answered in another post attached to ROMANS 5:18-19 that you can go and chase up. As it is simply a claim divorced from the rest of the bible as there is no justification without faith in God's Word see EPEHSIANS 2:8-9; ROMANS 14:23 and JOHN 3:16-21.

Please stop the repitition and read and address my posts if you disagree show why like I do for you.

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Faith is required for salvation, as you say. So when we learn from Scripture that all will be saved, faith is therefore implied. So your point about faith is meaningless in regards to Rom.5:18-19 supporting universal salvation. And, again, you haven't addressed all of this, but ignored it for the most part:


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

LoveGodsWord said:

What this has to do with what you are quoting from I have no idea? All the scriptures you have provided here have already been addressed in detail proving context and showing that the application your making to the wicked being saved is in error. I think you may have gone overboard on this website cut and paste stuff dear friend. How about a dicussion? How does anthing you have posted here prove that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? It doesnt. Give me your best scripture and let's discuss the detail. What have you got to lose if you believe you have the truth? Something to think about. All you are doing is what I have shown to you in nearly everyone post of yours I have responded to and that is to take the scriptures out of their context to try and claim that the scriptures that are to talking about the saved are in reference to the wicked. Fact is every time I have addressed your post the context proves you wrong. Instead of responding all you do is cut and paste and repeat yourself without addressing the content in the posts shared with you.

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If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.


Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

LoveGodsWord said:

Your cutting and pasting your repitition again. Already addressed and answered in detail here linked. Your just repeating yourself while ignoring my post to you. Goodness I am kind of getting tired of this to be honest dear friend. It seems your not here for a discussion at all.

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And my post was a reply to that:

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your repetition cut and paste again without addressing the content in my post to you again. Already answered here linked. I have addressed your above cut and paste post here more than once now. So will not be doing it agan.

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You falsely claimed i disregarded the context. So i replied:

Clearly i regarded the context & proved my argument from the context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

LoveGodsWord said:

Nonsense. Your just repeating yourself again. LAMANTATIONS 3 was addressed in detail showing the context you left out that proves why your interpretation of the scriptures is in error. I am not bothered with this until you try addressing my post that proves why your in error by ignoreing context.

Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address. I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin. Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Detailed scripture response already provided here linked

Hope this helps

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Why continue with the fallse claim i didn't read your post. I already addressed that false claim:

No, your still not addressing the issues:

I did address them by stating this:

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Nonsense. How would you know what i read or didn't read? Can you read minds? Are you omniscient? I did read the human opinions you posted. And addresss them (see above). What else is there to say. Nothing in them changed Lam.3:31-33 KJV or refuted anything i said. If you think so, point it out & explain why. That's the proper way to do things.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

Here you just repeat your previous comments with some empty fluff added. Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

LoveGodsWord said:

No thanks dear Fine. There is no second chances with the gambling lady of second chances. God is calling us away from the polluted waters of broen cisterns. To the living waters of eternal life.

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Why is dear dear dear Fine not surprised? Perhaps your broen cisterns are broken (busted) beyond repair!

Do not despair woman of chance, you can count on dear dear Fine to do your assignment for you. Your grade on your assignment however is FAIL.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your response...

Annihilationism is not endless. I do not know what your talking about here sorry.

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You know exactly what Shrewd is talking about!

The ghastly dogma of unending evil has five (5) very important foundations.

1. It teaches evil that has no end.

2. It points to a victorious devil.

3. It points to a God who fails as the Author & Finisher, with evil finally triumphant over God.

4. It teaches unending chaos forever and ever.

5. It is NOT afraid to call this ghastly scene the triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ!

"All in all" > > > becomes > > > all in some.

LoveGodsWord said:

Nothing in this post you have provided here says that the wicked will receive everlasting life at the second coming

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Strawman. That was never claimed in my post on Ecc.1:13. But Hades & the lake of fire are corrective, not endless annihilation as you believe:

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

ClementofA said:

You know that is not true. I've addessed your failed "proof texts" here:

Heb.10:26:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!


Heb.10:27:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Matthew 25:41:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

2 Thess.1:9
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Rev.21:7-8:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Matthew 22:14:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Rev. 22:11:
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

And these are a few of those you haven't addressed:

1 Cor 15:22-28

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Eccl 1:13

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!


Lam 3:31-33

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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Dear "Clem": You must stand in line (remember social distancing) while we wait and wait for a response lol.

LoveGodsWord said:

Where is the scripture that teaches that God does not hold us accountable for known unrepentant sin?

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Strawman. What are you implying with that question, your ignorance of what universalism teaches & yet another misrepresentation of it to add to your ever growing list of misrepresentations? The same misrepresentation of yours that occurs in the beginning of the first post of this thread.

LoveGodsWord said:

UNIVERSALISM makes a mockery of the death of JESUS.

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Nonsense.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

LoveGodsWord said:

Yet UNIVERSALISM cannot see this because it denies Gods love revealed in God's justice and judgement for sin.

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Ye do err. See above.

FineLinen said:

You know exactly what Shrewd is talking about!

The ghastly dogma of unending evil has five (5) very important foundations.

1. It teaches evil that has no end.

2. It points to a victorious devil.

3. It points to a God who fails as the Author & Finisher, with evil finally triumphant over God.

4. It teaches unending chaos forever and ever.

5. It is NOT afraid to call this ghastly scene the triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ!

"All in all" > > > becomes > > > all in some.

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Questions:

1. Is the Restitution of ta pavnte a giant beware?

2. Is God the Source, Guide & Goal of ta pavnte?

3. Does God reach the fulfillment of All & All?

4. Is there any aspect of death (thanantos) that fails to be swallowed by Him in completion?

5. How does alienation escape the Big Swallow?

LoveGodsWord said:

Yep true.

No. Death is destroyed is the last thing destroyed with the unrepentant wicked *1 CORINTHIANS 15:25-26.

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Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That God may become all "IN ALL" (v.26), even all who were "in Adam (v.22) & shall be "in Christ" (v.22).

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

LoveGodsWord said:

No. Your confused here dear friend. The righteouss saints that are dead in Christ are resurrected at the second coming *THESSALONIANS 4:14-18 while the wicked that are alive at the second coming are killed by the brightness of his coming * 2 THESSALONIANS 2:8 and await the resurrection of condemnation (second resurrection) and the second death *REVELATION 20:6. All Christs enemies are put under his feet at the second coming. At this time the saints reign with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:2-15 and at the end of this reign the unrepentant wicked dead are resurrected (second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29) to receive the judgement of the wicked and the second death in the lake of fire. At that time all the wicked are destroyed as is death itself and the devil and his angels *REVELATION 20:14; REVELATION 21:8; MATTHEW 25:31-41. No where does it say in the scriptures you provided that the wicked are living together with the saints at the second coming.

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What your last sentence states is irrelevant. I never claimed any such thing.

The fact is that the wicked are still alive in the lake of fire even after the new earth is created, not destroyed out of existence as you claim. Shouldn't you start believing Scripture:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

LoveGodsWord said:

See above the Kings of the earth in REVELATION 21:24 are the righteous KINGS, the saved and those who took part in the first resurrection. V24.. the nations of them which are saved..

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KJV & a couple others have "saved", but the vast majority do not:

Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

"—A, B, Vulgate, Coptic, and Andreas read "(the nations shall walk) by means of her light": omitting "of them which are saved."

"...of them which are saved] Should be omitted."

Revelation 21:24 Commentaries: The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

LoveGodsWord said:

see also v27 there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

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Of course the wicked won't be allowed in the New Jerusalem, until they are saved & added to those who have "life", which will be "all":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

LoveGodsWord said:

For Gods saints. Those who took part in the first resurrection.

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The leaves of the tree are for the "healing" of the nations. The saints are immortal & need no "healing". Only those in the lake of fire do. Therefore they are still there alive, being tormented (Rev.14:10; 20:10; 22:14-15), till they are "healed", saved & made immortal as the rest (1 Cor.15:22).

LoveGodsWord said:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:28 is in relation to the enemies of JESUS being under his feet in sujection to him.

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As scripture states (Rom.5:10, etc) we, fallen sinners, have - all - been His enemies:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

LoveGodsWord said:

Hmm what?

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The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

LoveGodsWord said:

Nonsense. The second death is eternal.

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You believe the lake of fire is eternal? Does the Bible tell you so? Where?

LoveGodsWord said:

Now they reap the wages of their sins which is DEATH because they rejected the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23

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Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

Our woman of chances has failed in her assignment. Shame be upon her head.

God does not operate in a sphere of chance.

Senkira =

A meeting together with a coincidence of circumstances. The meeting is by a concurrance of events (meaning no chance.) see Luke 10:31.

From koine tuncho = to happen.

Verb ei tuchoi =

ei = if

tuncharo = "to happen" -see 1 Cor. 15:31

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes, a parable. Your point here? How does this parable show that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming?

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Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The lord of the story returns, as the Lord will return, & delivers the wicked "to the tormentors" (v.34). And we know this tormenting is what happens to those cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10; cf 14:11) after the Lord returns. However in Matthew 18 they remain there until they "should pay all that was due". Which implies their salvation, no matter how long that may take. This opposes your theology.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yep so? What is your point?

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The same as above.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

LoveGodsWord said:

All repitition again you have already posted in about 4-5 other placed that has already been addressed that is still waiting for a response from you. The lattest one I think is here linked.

Do you have something to share accept repitition and cut and paste over and over dear friend?

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This is still unrefuted:

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily

I posted:

It's a misrepresentation of universalism to state, as you do above, that it "does not hold anyone accountable for sin". Wrong, wrong, wrong!

You replied:

LoveGodsWord said:

Says who?

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As someone who has read dozens of books by universalist authors, & dozens more by those opposed to universalism, and been active on many forums with other universalists posting, i believe i am in a position to know what they generally think about your misrepresentation at the beginning of post #1 of this thread. OTOH your post provided no evidence to support the misrepresentation.

LoveGodsWord said:

Someone that beleves, promotes and teaches Universalism who cannot provide a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming when the scriptures directly teach that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed and receive the second death after the second coming of JESUS?

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That is irrelevant to the point of your misrepresentation above.

Furthermore, that has been your mantra, repeated dozens of times in this thread, even after you've been given the evidence from Scripture to the contrary. As the saying goes,
"you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

LoveGodsWord said:

The teachings of Universalism denys God's justice and judgement not me.

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Universalism doesn't deny "God's justice and judgement". It denies the injustice of endless tortures & endless annihilation.

LoveGodsWord said:

This is where I see God's love to all mankind in sending His only begotten son that whoshoer believes on his shall not perish but have everlasting life.

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XYZ said:

John made it clear that Jesus came to save the world, but that everyone that does not believe on Him are condemned instead of saved because their deeds are evil.
[BOX]

John 3:14-19
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

[/BOX]

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And yet all those "condemned" unbelievers who later became believers are now no longer "condemned". So, you see, the being "condemned" was only temporary.

One of the more literal & honest translations says:

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

The Greek word aionion should be translated by the English word eonian, not eternal:

According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary eonian is a variant spelling of aeonian. Another variant is aeonic. They all mean, according to Webster's definition, "lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time". Webster's adds "Origin and Etymology of aeonian...from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic". Definition of EONIAN

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

Could most modern translations be in error?

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

LoveGodsWord said:

The teachings of Universalism denies God's justice and judgement for sin. This is where it makes a mockery of the cross and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 claiming that the wicked get a free pass and can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith.

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That is incorrect & a misrepresentation of universalism. No one gets "eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith". All those in the lake of fire will need to get right with their Maker, Love Omnipotnent, before they are allowed into the New Jerusalem, whose gates are never shut to the lost.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes you do. You believe that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming do you not?

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They are not saved at the second coming. They go to "hell" for a spell to be tormented (compare Lk.16:19-31; Rev.14:11; 20:10) until they pay what they owe (Mt.5:25-26; 18:34-35), namely repentance toward God & man & faith in Christ & His blood shed for all.

LoveGodsWord said:

Or you believe that God tortures them in the lake of fire until they repent and agree to follow him and receive everlasting life right? That is not the loving God I know from the bible.

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If you don't think that God torments people, then are we even reading the same bible? For the Scriptures speak of the (1) sufferings God brought on Job (Job 2), (2) on all women in child birth (Genesis), (3) on those in the lake of fire (Rev.14:11; 20:10), on all creation (Rom.8:18-21; Eccl.1:13), on believers (e.g. 2 Cor.12:7-9), on a stubborn "brother" (1 Cor.5:4-5), on those rejecting faith (1 Tim.1:19-20) & many, many more. What is the purpose of all such torments:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them".

Not to fry them with tortures till they are nonexistent forever.

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory.

None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

LoveGodsWord said:

How are the unrepentant wicked saved in your view after the second coming?

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Been there, done that. See above.

LoveGodsWord said:

Universalism has no scripture to claim that the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming. This teaching is simply unbiblical as demonstrated throughout this thread.

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My conscience & Lord will never allow me to agree with that.

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