THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The problem you and your friends are facing is that you have no scripture that says that God gives eternal life to the wicked after the second coming of Jesus now do you dear friend? Yet God's Word is very clear what happens to the wicked after the second coming.

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Your reply here...

ClementofA said:

Already addressed:

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Well that one has no truth in it. Scripture please. Where is the scripture that says that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming? You have posted none.

ClementofA said:

Where has any Christian universalist here said "the wicked get a free pass to Heaven"?

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Are you serious dear friend? It seems you have not been reading this thread or do not know what your friends believe or what Universalism teaches. Do you not believe that Universalism teaches that all men including the wicked will be saved? Yet the bible does not teach such things.

ClementofA said:

Do you believe you have to work your way to heaven?

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No we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast.

ClementofA said:

Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you follow Jesus?

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There is no such thing as endless annihilationism.

ClementofA said:

Why did you start this thread?

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Read the OP title.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ neither do you have any scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

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Your response here...

ClementofA said:

We do: Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16-20; Phil.2:9-11.

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No you don't all of the scriptures you have quoted are in reference to "believers" not unbelievers who will receive their punishment of destruction after the second coming as shown in *REVELATION 21:7-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 22:11-12; REVELATION 22:14-15 and all through the bible. I believe you may need to reconsider what you believe dear friend.

ClementofA said:

Do you think that - we - think we "have no scripture for (our) teachings"?

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There is no scripture that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

ClementofA said:

Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

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I trust that God is my guide and teacher as I seek him through his Word and claim His promises to guide and teach me as I turn away from the teachings and tradtitions of men that seek to lead others to break the commandments of God. Who is your teacher?

ClementofA said:

Can you - prove - from the context of the verses i gave above that they support your opinion of bible interpretation

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Yep.

ClementofA said:

Then why don't you address the post i keep asking you to answer?

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What post? I think I told you in an earlier post that I would be happy to answer your questions if you can show men one scripture that says that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming. So far you have failed to provide one.

ClementofA said:

Ignoring other's points and responses is no way to win a debate in the eyes of the onlookers of this thread. Let alone continual stubborn misrepresentations of universalist beliefs.

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I have not ignored anything. I am waiting for you to provide a single scripture that says that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming then reconcile the scripture shown above showing that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. Still waiting so perhaps your the one doing the ignoring.

ClementofA said:

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

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Nonsense. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming. There is no coming back from the second death and you have no scripture to show this.

ClementofA said:

Perhaps next time you say that you should provide a scripture that says "There is no more second chances". Maybe add with it an explanation why the Love of the Omnipotent expired like a carton of milk.

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In my view your statement above show a lack of understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the love of God, but here is why. God's love is revealed at the cross in his justice and judgement for sin. God's love is revealed in sending his only begotten son JESUS to pay the penalty for our sins so that whosoever believes on him should not perish and receive everlasting life *JOHN 3:16-19 and for the sins of the whole world *1 JOHN 2:2 to reconcile every man back to God *COLOSSIANS 1:20 by his grace *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 dying the death that we deserve to die for our sins *ROMANS 6:23 so that all those who accept the free gift of God's dear son's death can receive Gods forgiveness *1 JOHN 1:9 to those who hold out the hand of faith to accept it *EPHESIANS 2:8. If the wages of sin was not death *ROMANS 6:23 JESUS would not have to come to our world to die and it is here that God's love is revealed *JOHN 3:16; 1 JOHN 4:9-10 to all mankind. The doctrine of UNIVERALISM makes a mockery of the cross and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 claiming that the wicked get a free pass and can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith. In my view this UNIVERSALISM is another gospel and a doctrine of devils that can lead many away from God thinking that they can live like the devil today because they will have a second chance tommorrow when there is no second chances according to the scriptures.

ClementofA said:

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

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Paul repented of his sins and accepted the gift of God's grace through faith.

ClementofA said:

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

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Thomas repented of his unbelief and proclaimed "my God and my Saviour"

ClementofA said:

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

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David also repented from his sins. All your examples are to believers. Those who repented of their sins and turned back to God through faith in His Words before they died. The wicked continue in known unrepentant sin and do not turn to God and accept the gift of God's grace through faith.

ClementofA said:

I already addressed this passage in a post to you in this thread. Still waiting for your detailed reply

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No you didn't I am still waiting for you to address my earlier post as well as my newer ones in post # 1363 linked; post # 1364 linked; post # 1365 linked; post # 1366 linked and post # 1367 linked. You have a bit of catching up to do.

ClementofA said:

2 Thess.1:[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

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Already addressed in the linked posts above. The process of destruction is not everlasting but destruction is. The literal GREEK translation reads "Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength"

ClementofA said:

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9: "...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." Перевод ὄλεθρος с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

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I have BDAG and I have checked your link. Nothing you have provided shows that your claim that " the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." is in context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9.

I can see where you are wrong though if you do not mind me being helpful?

Why you are in error is that the statement claims you provided from the Lexicons is not in reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 but to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5. παραδοῦναί τινα τῷ σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλ. τῆς σαρκός "hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh" is in regards to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 and NOT 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Same words dear friend but different scripture context. Your statement claims from these Lexicon " the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." is in reference to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 not 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. They are the same greek words but the lexicon view show the context to the scripture they are applied to. Here is the complete statement here. Note 1. is in reference to the application and context of 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-9 and Note 2 is to the context application to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 (highlights in red)?

2 ὄλεθρος

ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348)
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).

② act of destruction, destruction παραδοῦναί τινα τῷ σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλ. τῆς σαρκός hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden 1902, 269–72; Lietzmann, Hdb. ’49, 28; and s. παραδίδωμι 1b.—Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 ὅταν πυκνῶς ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ γίνεσθε, καθαιροῦνται αἱ δυνάμεις τοῦ σατανᾶ καὶ λύεται ὁ ὄλ. αὐτοῦ when you come together frequently, the (spirit-) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified.—DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.

Hope this is helpful for when your reading Lexicons in the future.

ClementofA said:

Compare that above statement to: "In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5). He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

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Your jumping all over the place to different scriptures and different Greek words used in the english translation of destroy or destruction that are in relation to different contexts and subject matter while avoiding the word meaning and context of the subject matter of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Greek or Hebrew word meanings are many and varied for a single word application and it is the context that determines meaning and application so the points you are making above are not relevant as context determinse word meaning and application. Your trying to read the Greek like we do in English. You will be unable to interpret the Greek meanings with that mindset if you divorce context from application.

ClementofA said:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
post 710 on April 30 this thread

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All these scriptures are well and good but they all have one thing in common. They are all scripture references without exception to Gods people not the wicked which are conditional promises (scripture suport here linked). Context is king and should always be considered in scripture interpretation. Now all the above is only sent in love and as a help to you. Please take some time to prayerfully consider what has been shared with you dear friend.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

FineLinen said:

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I like this response to this but it is not mine. I saw it in another thread as this post is only a cut and paste and a response by @JacksBratt ....

That would be funny if it were true. However, I've never ever heard of a drowning person that wasn't shouting "save me, save me.. help help". If not by words.. by actions and they will actually drown the person who is offering help.. in efforts to get to safety.

So... nope.. not true.

That may be the way you look at it.. however others look at it like this:

A man was stuck on the roof of his car in raging flooded river... He prayed to God to rescue him.

1st a man with a life saving ring swam out with a rope to offer to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks, God will save me".
2nd a man in a boat risked the torrents to go out to the man to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks God will save me"
3rd a helicopter came and lowered a rope.
The man again refused stating "No thanks, God will save me"

He drowned..

At the pearly gates he asked St. Peter why God didn't save him..

St. Peter said... "What are you talking about? He sent a man with a rope, a boat and even a helicopter.... and you refused them all."

ClementofA said:

Sorry, but you seem not to have understood my question. Is English not your first language. I had asked: Do you think that - we - think we "have no scripture for (our) teachings"?

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I answered you. What is it you did not understand when I posted there is no scripture that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

ClementofA said:

Again you seem not to have understood the question i asked: Do you consider your interpretation of Scripture infallible? A simple yes or no will be fine.

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I answered your question appropriately when I said that I trust that God is my guide and my teacher as I seek him through his Word and claim His promises to guide and teach me. No one has a perfect understanding of the scriptures or we would no longer be learning. So my answer would be as far am aware I believe what God has revealed to me is true but God is guiding and teaching me and leading me into his truth and I have not learned everything. So my answer is yes God is my teacher and no, I have not learned everything. What is your answer to your own question?

ClementofA said:

My post already gave them to you. You replied that you can - prove - they are in agreement with your teaching of annihilationism (which i call endless annihilation). So i'll be waiting for your analysis of the context of these verses: Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Col.1:16-20; Phil.2:9-11.

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And I responded by saying none of the scriptures you provided say that the wicked defined as those who do not accept the gift of God's dear son and continue in known unrepentant sin after the second coming receive eternal life. All the scriptures you have provided are in reference to the saved who are those who accept the gift of God's grace that he has made available for the whole world, not the unsaved (wicked) who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. These God reserves for judgement and firey indignation that will devour the adversaries *HEBREWS 10:26-31. So the scriptures you have provided here are not relevant to the conversation. Now I will ask you again, where is the scripture that says that the wicked who live their life in unrepentant sin who reject the gospel receive eternal life after the second coming. You have no scripture do you. Does this not worry you? It should.

ClementofA said:

I asked: Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you follow Jesus? You replied that there was no such thing as "endless annihilationism". By endless annihilationism i am referring to the theological opinion that God will annihilate the wicked and that annihilation will be endless, hence endless annihilation. IOW they won't be annihilated and then be brought back later, but the annihilation will be endless. Often this is called simply annihilationism or conditionalism. Do you understand now? So again i ask you:

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Indeed, and I replied by saying; there was no such thing as "endless annihilationism" as annihilation is not endless. If your trying to say that the destruction of the wicked is for eternity then yes this has already been addressed in providing a Greek text scan earlier od 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 that says...

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength"

If your asking does conditional salvation (scripture suport here linked), God's justice and judgements, help me to follow JESUS I would answer absolutely! Why because it is only here we see Gods love for all mankind in sending his only begotten son to pay the penalty for our sins so we can be reconcilled to God. The teachings of UNIVERSALISM cannot see God's love if they do not see God's justice. It makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

ClementofA said:

Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you follow Jesus?
Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you love Jesus?
Does your belief in endless annihilationism help you believe in Jesus?

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Your repeating yourself see previous section.

ClementofA said:

Does it matter if universalists don't accept that endless annihilation is biblical? Why?

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I believe God's people are in every church and teaching living up to all the knowledge that he has revealed to them from the scriptures. As long as we are believing and following God's Word (not false teachings that are not God's Word) then we are Gods children. The hour is coming and now is according to the scriptures that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who whoship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 10:16; JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be, out from following man made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 18:1-5. None of us are held accountable for sin until we are given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it. If we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin then there remains for us no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 17:30-31; JAMES 4:17; HEBREWS 10:26-31. What keeps us out of God's kingdom is known unrepentant sin. UNIVERSALISM teaches that the wicked get a second chance after the second coming. This is not biblical. Those who trust in this teaching thinking they will live like the devil today because they will get a second chance at the second coming will be sadly disappointed.

ClementofA said:

Your lists repeats both Rev.21:7 & 8 twice. Those verses make no mention of any destruction of anyone, let alone endless destruction, which is what you need to prove your doctrine. Yet not one verse in the Bible says "endless destruction" or "endless annihilation". Furthermore, even after being cast into the lake of fire in chapter 21 and after the creation of the new heavens and earth in chapter 22, those in the lake of fire are not annihilated but still there outside the New Jerusalem (Rev.22:14-15). So, sorry, your doctrine makes no sense to me.

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Sorry it was a simple rushed typo. Why does every verse need to include the word "destruction"? I thought I posted enough of those already? The scripture was shown to provide the contrast between the God's people who are saved and the wicked who are not saved and what happens to both of them...

REVELATION 21:7-8 says [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things (the saved); and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Makes plenty of sense to me. It is not hard to understand just read what it says.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The doctrine of UNIVERALISM makes a mockery of the cross and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 claiming that the wicked get a free pass and can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith.

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Your response here..

ClementofA said:

That statement is misrepresenting Christian universalism. As a Christian universalist i do not believe the "wicked get a free pass" but will be punished in "hell". What you sow you reap, Paul says. As a Christian universalist i do not believe anyone "can continue in known unrepentant sins for which JESUS died and receive eternal life without accepting God's gift of grace through faith". To be saved one must accept God's gift of grace through faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6).

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Paul was never a Christian universalist. The statement provided above is not misrepresenting Christian Universalism it is only a statement in truth. UNIVERSALISM teaches that the wicked go into the lake of fire and are forced to repent and follow God and then receive eternal life. This is not biblical. That kind of God is no better than those who believe in eternal burning hell fire and is not the God of love I believe and follow and is not the God of the bible.

ClementofA said:

In that regard, BTW, one of your SDA comrades was here recently insisting aborted babies will be saved without faith. Is that your view also?

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I have no idear to be honest. What I do know is that our God is a God of love and mercy as well as a God of justice and judgement and that the scriptures teach that God's justice and judgement is over sin and we are only held accountable for sin when we have been given a knowledge of what sin is (see ACTS 17:30-31 and JAMES 4:17). So I would say that those who do not know what sin is and have had no knowledge of sin our God will judge them accordingly with mercy, grace and love.

ClementofA said:

So you don't consider us universalists here to be saved or be Christians? Like your comrade SDA who damned us to endless annihilation earlier in this thread? How is it universalism is "another gospel"?

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Already answered above in your question "Does it matter if universalists don't accept that endless annihilation is biblical? Why?"

ClementofA said:

What do you consider the true gospel to be?

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All scripture and every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

ClementofA said:

How many people are living like the devil, as you put it, because they couldn't accept the churchianity dogmas of Love Omnipotent being (a) an endless torturer or (b) as in your view torturing until he has put them out of existence forever because his love expired like a carton of milk & he was too impotent to save but powerful enough to do the endless Hitler job on them?

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None of what you posted here is what I believe so not relevant.

ClementofA said:

Also how many people who would never have accepted those hideous representations of God have accepted Christ due to the infinitely loving universalist representation?

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The problem is in eliminating God's justice and judgement from his love and mercy as God's love for our world is truly revealed in his justice and judgement for sin. If God was not a God of love, mercy, justice and judgement, JESUS would not have had to die for the sins of the world. Those who reject the gift of God's dear son reject God's mercy and love and his gift of grace and forgiveness in JESUS and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing for them the wages of sin is death as they do not accept Christs death for their life *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Hope this helps.

ClementofA said:

I was already quite aware of that. And i don't consider the lexicon to be an infallible pope when it comes to deciding which meanings of words apply in particular contexts. My point is simply that it is understood that the word carried a meaning consistent with universalism in 2 Thess.1:9. And while we're quoting from BDAG, i would bring your attention to what else it says in the following, in support of universalism:

Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows
according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…”
Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

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How does anything you have provided above address anything in the post provided to you dear friend? It doesn't. You simply pretty much said what I already posted to you in the previous post, except to acknowledge that what you posted in the Lexicons was not in reference to the context of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 but to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 which is what I pointed out to you in the previous post. Maybe you were not aware of it when you did it but you were making claims that the Lexicons were not making which is what was pointed out to you. Whatever reasons your previous post was not clear and you were applying a Lexicon context reading of 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 which was not truthful or a mistake your part. Whatever the reason I am glad we can now agree.

ClementofA said:

Lamentations i quoted speaks not of "God's people" but "men" in general:
Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

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Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

Hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I answered you. What is it you did not understand? When I posted there is no scripture that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

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Your response...

ClementofA said:

Again, that doesn't answer the question: Do you think that - we - think we "have no scripture for (our) teachings"?

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I am sorry dear fiend I cannot answer you any more clearly then I already have. What is it that you do not understand when I say UNIVERSALISM has not a single scripture that teaches that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming?

ClementofA said:

Why should it worry me? Love Omnipotent has saved me by Jesus Christ & Him crucified through my faith in Him. His blood has cleansed me of every sin. Even if i were honestly mistaken about some things, e.g. universalism, that doesn't change the fact that i am His child.

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I do not judge you dear friend. Only God knows who are his and who are not and who has received a knowledge of his truth and rejected it in order to continue in sin or not. It is the Word of God that becomes our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48. I also believe as I have posted earlier to you that God's people are in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge of His Word that he has revealed to them.

ClementofA said:

You've been given the Scriptures repeatedly in this thread & lightly dismissed them saying they speak of believers. Is that any way to study the Bible honestly & objectively in the sight of God? No. If you're willing to have a real discussion, and not just thump scriptures at each other, then you'll explain how you think those scriptures i gave you do not support universalism. Just as i've done with scriptures you've posted showing how they harmonize with biblical universalism.

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Not really dear friend. You were shown the context of the scriptures you provided showing that the context you left out. The scriptures you provided was to believers not unbelievers. What is it you did not understand? You have not posted a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS. Here we are over 70 pages and 1397 posts latter and no one that believes in UNIVERSALISM has provided a single scripture for this teaching. That is why I asked you earlier does it not worry you. If it doesn't dear friend it should.

ClementofA said:

I don't see the justice in an endless punishment for the sins of a relatively momentary lifetime. That makes no sense at all. Not only does your annihilationism (endless oblivion) theory make a mockery of Love Omnipotent's justice, it also turns Love Crucified's Love into a carton of milk that expires in no time at all. You have Him putting the wicked into torments until they cease to exist & never bringing them back. That's sadistic, pointless and to the detriment of God's glory

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Indeed dear friend, neither do I believe in endless punishment for sin (Eternal burning hell) as it is not biblical. I also do mot see justice in the teachings of Universalism as posted earlier to you when it teaches that all the unrepentant wicked will receive everlasint life when they have rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to God's Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39 and rejecting the gift of eternal life from God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. How is that a loving God in your view who sends all the wicked to a lake of fire until they repent and force them to believe and follow him? To me that is not any different to the false teaching of eternal buring hell fire. God does not force people to believe and follow him. The God I know from the bible is a God of love and mercy as well as a God of justice and judgement ‘The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.*NUMBERS 14:18. According to the scriptures those who reject the gift of God's grace reject the only means of salvation that God has provided for all mankind and will suffer the consequences for the own sins and actions because they reject the only means of salvation for sin that God has provided in his Love and mercy.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ It makes a mockery of the death of God's dear son and counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

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Your response...

ClementofA said:

Quite the opposite. None of His blood shed for all is wasted, but is used to save the world. After all, that is what He is, the Saviour of the world, the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29). That He does by His blood & bearing sin, not destroying the sinner out of existence & out of His love, joy & peace forever. No, Love Almighty does not hold neverending grudges, hate and bitterness against His created children. That would be unholy & sinful.

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Do you understand the old covenant and the Sanctuary service for the remission of sins? The wages of sin is death according to the scriptures *ROMANS 6:23 and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins *HEBREWS 9:22. There is no remission or forgiveness of sin dear friend without the blood of Christ (represents the sin offerings in the old covenant). This is the only way mankind is reconciled to God. This is where we see the revelation of God's love for mankind in his justice and judgement for sin. According to the scriptures the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing by continuing in known unrepentant sin. The teachings of Universalism leads the believer away from Gods justice and judgement where God's love is revealed for all mankind.

ClementofA said:

Even in this lifetime people get 2nd chances. Perhaps many more chances than that. Love Omnipotent's love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. He has an infinite number of chances to give. He says to forgive not just 7 times, but 70 X 7. He says love covers a multitude of sins. That's the Creator of the Scriptures & the Father God that i believe in.

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Indeed dear friend God is longsuffering with us and patient and merciful and if any man sin if he repents he has an advocate with the Father JESUS CHRIST the righteous *1 JOHN 2:1-2; 1 JOHN 1:9 but to those who continue to live in unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth God does not hear them and even their prayer is an abomination in God's eye *PROVERBS 28:9-13. The soul that continues in sin will die *EXEKIEL 18:4 because sin (breaking God's law and not believing his Word) separates us from God *ISAIAH 59:2.

ClementofA said:

I wonder how many chances Saul, who became Paul, had. Jesus said he was kicking against the goads. It sounds like he was resisting the Holy Spirit. Surely, as a serial killer of Christians, he had heard the gospel from those Christians he persecuted. Yet he refused to believe, again and again. It took a personal appearance from Christ Himself to save this man, whom scripture calls "the worst of sinners".

Jesus disciple Thomas is another example of getting at least a second chance. He refused to believe the Lord had risen, even after all that Jesus had taught him & the testimony of other disciples who had seen him. Like many atheists today he said he would refuse to believe until he saw Him & put his hand inside Him.

King David is another example of being given at least a second chance, if not many more. After all the Lord had done for him, including miracles, he committed premeditated adultery and murder.

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This is only repitition already previously answered in another post to you. All of your above examples repented and returned to God.

ClementofA said:

Your lists repeats both Rev.21:7 & 8 twice. Those verses make no mention of any destruction of anyone, let alone endless destruction, which is what you need to prove your doctrine. Yet not one verse in the Bible says "endless destruction" or "endless annihilation". Furthermore, even after being cast into the lake of fire in chapter 21 and after the creation of the new heavens and earth in chapter 22, those in the lake of fire are not annihilated but still there outside the New Jerusalem (Rev.22:14-15). So, sorry, your doctrine makes no sense to me.

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Repetition again. This is just another cut and paste from you already addressed in an earlier post you did not respond to where I posted...

"Sorry it was a simple rushed typo. Why does every verse need to include the word "destruction"? I thought I posted enough of those already? The scripture was shown to provide the contrast between the God's people who are saved and the wicked who are not saved and what happens to both of them...

REVELATION 21:7-8 says [7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things (the saved); and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Makes plenty of sense to me. It is not hard to understand just read what it says."

Are you not reading my posts to you dear friend? If you are why are you repeating yourself and continuing with your cut and pastes of the same content over and over?

ClementofA said:

Earlier you said universalism says people get a second chance. Now you're saying these people are "forced to repent". Which is it, a second "chance" or "forced to repent"?

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There is no second chances period after the second coming the same as there is no second chances in this life without repentance.

ClementofA said:

So you can't see that the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace as any better than the God Who sadistically tortures MANY for all eternity? Wow. I'm speechless.

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Your claims are not biblical. I am speechless that you have no scripture that teaches that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the second coming who have rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace and that you believe in a God the tortures people in a lake of fire until they are forced to believe and follow him. That is not the God I know that is in the bible and neither is it biblical. How anyone can believe in UNIVERSALISM over the God's Word makes me also say "Wow I am speechless. Yet because I love my God and brothers and sisters I am hear to share God's Word which are not mine but Gods praying that those who may have ears to hear and eyes to see may hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him who calls us in love to love another.

ClementofA said:

You say the God Who saves ALL human beings into His endless love, joy and peace is "not the God of love". And your Hitler nuking out of existence forever because His love expired like a carton of milk is "the God of love". Unbelievable. Is that actually what SDA's teach in their church meetings & publications, etc?

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Nonesese. I have said no such thing. Please do not make of things not one has said or believe. It is simply being dishonest. If you want to know what I believe try asking me.

ClementofA said:

You say the gospel is "All scripture and every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Do you have Scripture to support that?

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Indeed I do and have many scriptures although that would be a different topic. Now where is the scriptures that state that the unrepentant wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming of JESUS? You have none do you.

Hope this is helpful.

ClementofA said:

What claims? How is quoting a lexicon making a claim?

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You were falsely quoting a Lexicon referring to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 and pretending it was a reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Happy to pull up the conversation again if you want? Just let me know.

You were in error stating that the quote from " the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." was in reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 when it was a reference to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5.

I pulled up the reference below only help to correct you to show why you were in error...

② act of destruction, destruction παραδοῦναί τινα τῷ σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλ. τῆς σαρκός hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden 1902, 269–72; Lietzmann, Hdb. ’49, 28; and s. παραδίδωμι 1b.—Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 ὅταν πυκνῶς ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ γίνεσθε, καθαιροῦνται αἱ δυνάμεις τοῦ σατανᾶ καὶ λύεται ὁ ὄλ. αὐτοῦ when you come together frequently, the (spirit-) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified.—DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.

ClementofA said:

According to the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same):
Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)
Clearly Lam.3:31-33 above is in opposition to any theology in support of endless punishment of the wicked. Nothing you posted changes what is stated above in Lam.3:31-33. You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

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More repetition. Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address. I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin. Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

FineLinen said:

Gobs and gobs of gobbleydook never helps & never will!

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Gods Word dear Fine is not "Gobs and gobs of gobbleydook". This is more inline with the what you have been posting but you are free to believe as you wish. For me I believe only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that lead people away from God and his Word.