Is the Sabbath an eternal moral law for humanity?

YouAreAwesome · May 16, 2020

Andre_b said:
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Explain to me how 1) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances means the 10 commandments.
It is also explained in the verses that follow but you seem to ignore this as well. Nothing in there is related to the 10 commandments.

God's Law is not contrary to us. "The law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12). AND 1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

You seem to confuse a lot of which law is being spoken of in different verses, again you need to read the CONTEXT to know which law they are talking about. Just like there are multiple covenants, some end but some don't.

Do you study multiple translations? Do you look into the Greek for the fuller meaning? Honest question. Because Colossians 2:14 is not what you hope.

The two words put together and rendered in the KJV "the handwriting of ordinances" are:

cheirographon which means "the handwriting" but here it means a specific kind of handwriting, as written in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Metaphorically, applied in Colossians 2:14 ((where R. V. bond)) to the Mosaic law, which shews men to be chargeable with offences for which they must pay the penalty. (STRONGS 5498 - I suggest you look it up)

dogma which means "ordinances" or "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment".

And these were "against us". Here's a few other translations that give the fuller picture of the true meaning:

NKJV having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us
NLT He canceled the record of the charges against us
NIV having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us
ESV by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands

Were the Israelites in debt with charges against them because of ordinances only and not the Ten? I believe this not only includes the Ten Commandments, but the whole Mosaic Law. Because it was the whole Mosaic Law that held charges against the Israelite people causing them a legal indebtedness to the covenant and condemning them by that covenant. Any disobedience required wrath from God. How can you separate the Ten from those that cause a record of debt with legal demands? Isn't that usually your argument, that the Ten are particularly important in pointing out sin?

YouAreAwesome · May 16, 2020

Andre_b said:
Where did I agree? You are the one saying that you determined a ceremonial law in the 10 commandments. You are just trolling now.

I do not separate the Mosaic Law into moral and ceremonial etc. But if I were, I would go with this definition for ceremony:

Ceremony - a unified ritualistic event with a purpose, usually consisting of a number of artistic components, performed on a special occasion

Now tell, does "Thou shalt not kill" fit into this category? No. Does "Keep the Sabbath"? Yes. So you asked if one of the Ten were a ceremony, and under this definition I answered "yes".

YouAreAwesome · May 16, 2020

BobRyan said:
On the contrary - I point out that the Commandments of God are specifically those where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment.

I do that without saying "every instance of entolē is a reference to the Ten Commandents". I use Paul's own definition for Commandments of God as the LAW of God where

same thing as we see for "Law" And Commandments in Romans 7, and in James 2, and in Romans 13, and in Matthew 19.

It makes more sense to find the meaning of entolē by its immediate context. Not by looking at Matthew 19!

YouAreAwesome · May 16, 2020

Studyman said:
If I might humbly add some points here. The God which said "Love thy neighbor as thyself", is also the Same God which said "Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together."

So first it doesn't seem right to trust God when HE says one thing a man may agree with, and not trust God when HE says another thing a man may not agree with. To go through HIS judgments and pick between them like, OK I agree with this Judgment of God so I will honor HIM in it, but I don't agree with that Judgment of God so I'm going to reject it, seems to me like exalting ones self to Judge of God's Word, and not a believer of God's Word. How can that be righteous?

I would say in this case we should maybe consider that it isn't God who is in error here, or God who doesn't know what HE is talking about, Rather, maybe it is man's understanding of His Word's which may be in error.

At any rate, showing partiality in God's Laws has brought plagues on man since Eve. Maybe we should consider God morally correct in all His Judgments, and accept all of them as Holy whether we completely understand them or not. It has been my experience that if we "SEEK" His Truth with all our heart, HE will reveal to us the understanding. This requires Faith in God to believe HE is Morally correct even if we may not SEE the relevance. In this way we Glorify God in Faith even when we can not clearly SEE HIS intent.

Food for thought.

Welcome back to the discussion! I agree with the direction of your reply. Are you suggesting to follow the Mosaic instruction not to wear clothes of diverse fabric? I think this is the logical consequence for those keeping God's instructions in the Mosaic Law today.

Andre_b · May 16, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
I do not separate the Mosaic Law into moral and ceremonial etc. But if I were, I would go with this definition for ceremony:

Ceremony - a unified ritualistic event with a purpose, usually consisting of a number of artistic components, performed on a special occasion

Now tell, does "Thou shalt not kill" fit into this category? No. Does "Keep the Sabbath"? Yes. So you asked if one of the Ten were a ceremony, and under this definition I answered "yes".

What ceremony do you do to keep the sabbath? You are worshiping God and resting from work. How is that a ceremony? Even if it is a ceremony it is not the same as the ceremonial sacrificial system which was there to point to Jesus and the entire way to cleanse us of our sins of breaking his Commandments. Of course breaking the ceremonial laws was also part of it as well but secondary. Sabbath is part of the Commandments on how to worship, just like don't make Idols, and the first commandment to worship only him. God is the one that tells us the correct way to worship and knows what is good for us like taking an ENTIRE day off for spiritual refreshment. It is CLEARLY unhealthy to work 7 days a week. The Sabbath reminds us of the creation week also and not to be fooled by billions of years and evolution and any other nonsense philosophy.

Andre_b · May 16, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Do you study multiple translations? Do you look into the Greek for the fuller meaning? Honest question. Because Colossians 2:14 is not what you hope.

The two words put together and rendered in the KJV "the handwriting of ordinances" are:

cheirographon which means "the handwriting" but here it means a specific kind of handwriting, as written in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

Metaphorically, applied in Colossians 2:14 ((where R. V. bond)) to the Mosaic law, which shews men to be chargeable with offences for which they must pay the penalty. (STRONGS 5498 - I suggest you look it up)

dogma which means "ordinances" or "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment".

And these were "against us". Here's a few other translations that give the fuller picture of the true meaning:

NKJV having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us
NLT He canceled the record of the charges against us
NIV having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us
ESV by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands

Were the Israelites in debt with charges against them because of ordinances only and not the Ten? I believe this not only includes the Ten Commandments, but the whole Mosaic Law. Because it was the whole Mosaic Law that held charges against the Israelite people causing them a legal indebtedness to the covenant and condemning them by that covenant. Any disobedience required wrath from God. How can you separate the Ten from those that cause a record of debt with legal demands? Isn't that usually your argument, that the Ten are particularly important in pointing out sin?

The wages of sin is death. So the price was the ceremonial sacrifice of a lamb to pay for our sins, the sins of breaking the 10 commandments. Jesus took away the sacrificial system, he is that lamb and our advocate. So when we sin we don't need to bring a lamb and do the entire system which was against us and difficult to do and maintain. Now we have Christ as our High Priest and Lamb of God to confess our sins to. That's the whole point. Why would God change the laws and commandments of the universe constantly and confuse humans. Good and evil is the same, today yesterday and tomorrow.

God wrote his law with his finger that is not a handwriting Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Moses wrote with his handwriting and gave it to the
Deuteronomy 31:9, "And Moses wrote this law."
Deuteronomy 31:24 "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished"

Why was Moses book place in the side of the ark of the covenant and the ten commandments inside the ark? Obviously the 2 are separate clearly God is showing this here. Why would they be separate if people claim it's the same thing? Clearly there are 2 covenants.

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of
the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

Exodus 25:16, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."
Exodus 40:20, "Then he took the testimony and put it into the ark, and attached the poles to the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark."
Deuteronomy 10:1-5
1 At that time the LORD said to me, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones and come up to me on the mountain. Also make a wooden ark.
2 I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark.”
3 So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands.
4 The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.
5 Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

1 Chronicles 16:15 & 17
15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Just like 1 John 5:3 Reaffirms the same thing "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments" these are all parallels to the same everlasting covenant.

Obviously one of the covenants, the 10 commandments, existed before but here it is simply reaffirmed in writing since Israel was a theocracy governed by God and as written proof since. Which also includes the Bible, he doesn't speak directly with men audibly, the Word is also the Bible. We don't need the entire record of the 10 commandments rewritten constantly repeated with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac and all the generations, God says it is an everlasting covenant which makes total sense. Imagine if he repeating every single 10 commandments constantly. All he needs to say is his commandments. God spoke directly to man a lot more before the time of Moses. The laws were heard directly from God to man. Eg: Abraham obeyed God’s voice (Genesis 26:5) Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). etc

Noah walked with God just like John says:
2 John 1: And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

The gospel was preached to others a long time in the past, I assume probably the forefathers as well, the same as today, but here specifically the Israelite of Moses' time: Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

YouAreAwesome · May 16, 2020

Andre_b said:
What ceremony do you do to keep the sabbath? You are worshiping God and resting from work. How is that a ceremony?

If you deny the sabbath is a ceremony. Please outline how it is a moral law. You'll need to provide a definition that keeps the sabbath in that moral law, while rejecting things like tattoos, the Passover, all the other feasts and sabbaths etc. Good luck with that because no one has provided one yet.

Even if it is a ceremony it is not the same as the ceremonial sacrificial system which was there to point to Jesus and the entire way to cleanse us of our sins of breaking his Commandments

And on this part, I am not arguing it is like the sacrificial system. I am arguing it is symbolic of the rest we have in Jesus. Tell me one other eternal moral law that is a symbol.

God is the one that tells us the correct way to worship and knows what is good for us like taking an ENTIRE day off for spiritual refreshment. It is CLEARLY unhealthy to work 7 days a week.

There are a lot of good instructions. Eat healthy. Get a lot of sleep. Drink lots of water. Exercise. It is clearly unhealthy to pretend these aren't important. But just as the law was a tutor, helping us to learn things about Jesus and living intelligently, that doesn't mean it carries into a New Covenant. Because here your reasoning is basically: X is a law in the Mosaic Covenant. X is good. Therefore X is a law in the New Covenant. The main problem here is, how do you define good? The Passover for example would be an awesome thing keep celebrating to remind us of all the rich history and prophetic language used to prophesy the death of Jesus. So based on your logic, we should keep celebrating it. And the only thing I can see you doing is differentiating the two by saying the Passover pointed to Jesus. But the Sabbath also pointed to Jesus. The only other way around it is to argue the Sabbath was given to mankind. And so we're back to this one verse Mark 2:27 where Jesus is arguing that the Pharisees have raised the Sabbath up above where it should be. An interesting passage to use for the justification of the whole Sabbath belief system.

The Sabbath reminds us of the creation week also and not to be fooled by billions of years and evolution and any other nonsense philosophy.

The Passover reminds us of Jesus' death. Isn't that more important?

Andre_b · May 16, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
If you deny the sabbath is a ceremony. Please outline how it is a moral law. You'll need to provide a definition that keeps the sabbath in that moral law, while rejecting things like tattoos, the Passover, all the other feasts and sabbaths etc. Good luck with that because no one has provided one yet.

And on this part, I am not arguing it is like the sacrificial system. I am arguing it is symbolic of the rest we have in Jesus. Tell me one other eternal moral law that is a symbol.

There are a lot of good instructions. Eat healthy. Get a lot of sleep. Drink lots of water. Exercise. It is clearly unhealthy to pretend these aren't important. But just as the law was a tutor, helping us to learn things about Jesus and living intelligently, that doesn't mean it carries into a New Covenant. Because here your reasoning is basically: X is a law in the Mosaic Covenant. X is good. Therefore X is a law in the New Covenant. The main problem here is, how do you define good? The Passover for example would be an awesome thing keep celebrating to remind us of all the rich history and prophetic language used to prophesy the death of Jesus. So based on your logic, we should keep celebrating it. And the only thing I can see you doing is differentiating the two by saying the Passover pointed to Jesus. But the Sabbath also pointed to Jesus. The only other way around it is to argue the Sabbath was given to mankind. And so we're back to this one verse Mark 2:27 where Jesus is arguing that the Pharisees have raised the Sabbath up above where it should be. An interesting passage to use for the justification of the whole Sabbath belief system.

The Passover reminds us of Jesus' death. Isn't that more important?

I don't really care if it's called a moral law or not. It's the law of God. that's what matters and he says what's right or wrong. I'm not going to go into this discussion because it's becoming ridiculous really and has nothing to do with the meaning of the sacrificial system or whatever "you" want to call it. The health rules are still important to us today and other things as well but no where does it say it is still binding. The laws simply no longer send us to hell, even though we break them willingly or unwillingly at times. Before it was "didn't care about God and his rules" until we believed and had faith in him. The whole point is God is refining us and guiding us with the Holy Spirit. Break the Sabbath is your problem. You want to make it so complicated go ahead.

Your Mark 2:27 give nothing in your argument. You haven't proved anything. Jesus was reaffirming and keeping the Sabbath and telling them what they were doing with it was wrong. He was doing what it was in the 10 commandments all along. Sabbath was made for MAN, not Jew, not Israel, not Pharisee, not anything else but MAN. you cannot get any clearer than that yet you try to massacre a simple straightforward verse which shows me how you treat the bible as a whole, twist the words constantly. your Strong's definitions shows absolutely nothing also in the previous post that changes what it means. The debt of the death penalty is paid by Jesus instead of the sacrificial system in the rules of ordinances, it doesn't remove the Law it removes the debt to the Law. The Law is still there, Jesus is paying our fine. Just like when you go to jail and you do your time or someone bails you out. Do you get out and go do the exact same thing and break the law on purpose over and over again? No. Then we treat God the same way.

timothyu · May 16, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Please outline how it is a moral law.

Is not respect for God by honouring Him a moral act?

Andre_b · May 16, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
If you deny the sabbath is a ceremony. Please outline how it is a moral law. You'll need to provide a definition that keeps the sabbath in that moral law, while rejecting things like tattoos, the Passover, all the other feasts and sabbaths etc. Good luck with that because no one has provided one yet.

And on this part, I am not arguing it is like the sacrificial system. I am arguing it is symbolic of the rest we have in Jesus. Tell me one other eternal moral law that is a symbol.

There are a lot of good instructions. Eat healthy. Get a lot of sleep. Drink lots of water. Exercise. It is clearly unhealthy to pretend these aren't important. But just as the law was a tutor, helping us to learn things about Jesus and living intelligently, that doesn't mean it carries into a New Covenant. Because here your reasoning is basically: X is a law in the Mosaic Covenant. X is good. Therefore X is a law in the New Covenant. The main problem here is, how do you define good? The Passover for example would be an awesome thing keep celebrating to remind us of all the rich history and prophetic language used to prophesy the death of Jesus. So based on your logic, we should keep celebrating it. And the only thing I can see you doing is differentiating the two by saying the Passover pointed to Jesus. But the Sabbath also pointed to Jesus. The only other way around it is to argue the Sabbath was given to mankind. And so we're back to this one verse Mark 2:27 where Jesus is arguing that the Pharisees have raised the Sabbath up above where it should be. An interesting passage to use for the justification of the whole Sabbath belief system.

The Passover reminds us of Jesus' death. Isn't that more important?

I don't see how the Sabbath points to Jesus. It says REMEMBER, the Sabbath to keep it Holy, For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It points backwards at CREATION week. The only possible forward I see is at the Millennial reign of Christ when we will truly rest physically as well as spiritually. The Sabbath is a physical rest of our job and labor. We are not resting physically so it cannot be the shadow of Christ fulfilled yet. We all work and labor still.

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
Why would God change the laws and commandments of the universe constantly and confuse humans. Good and evil is the same, today yesterday and tomorrow.

Under the Mosaic Covenant it was evil for the Israelite's to wear clothing woven of two kinds of fabric. Do you believe it is evil now?

God wrote his law with his finger that is not a handwriting Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Moses wrote with his handwriting and gave it to the
Deuteronomy 31:9, "And Moses wrote this law."
Deuteronomy 31:24 "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished"

Your argument here is that God's finger isn't part of His hand therefore doesn't classify as handwriting.

Why was Moses book place in the side of the ark of the covenant and the ten commandments inside the ark? Obviously the 2 are separate clearly God is showing this here. Why would they be separate if people claim it's the same thing? Clearly there are 2 covenants.

Please outline what you believe to be the two covenants, specifically the difference between them.

Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of
the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

Exodus 25:16, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."
Exodus 40:20, "Then he took the testimony and put it into the ark, and attached the poles to the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark."
Deuteronomy 10:1-5
1 At that time the LORD said to me, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones and come up to me on the mountain. Also make a wooden ark.
2 I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark.”
3 So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands.
4 The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.
5 Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

1 Chronicles 16:15 & 17
15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Just like 1 John 5:3 Reaffirms the same thing "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments" these are all parallels to the same everlasting covenant.

Your argument is that there is a hierarchy where the Ten are above the rest of the "handwriting". I do not agree, but I will entertain your idea, how does this show the Ten are only moral laws?

Obviously one of the covenants, the 10 commandments, existed before but here it is simply reaffirmed in writing since Israel was a theocracy governed by God and as written proof since.

How is this obvious? We have had this discussion and it is obvious the Ten were given to Israel -- that is certain. Were they given at creation? Most will argue no, and arguing they were is conjecture.

Which also includes the Bible, he doesn't speak directly with men audibly, the Word is also the Bible. We don't need the entire record of the 10 commandments rewritten constantly repeated with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac and all the generations, God says it is an everlasting covenant which makes total sense.

I'll tell you what else was an everlasting covenant, circumcission (Genesis 17:13). Do you teach we should continue to circumcise?

Imagine if he repeating every single 10 commandments constantly. All he needs to say is his commandments. God spoke directly to man a lot more before the time of Moses. The laws were heard directly from God to man. Eg: Abraham obeyed God’s voice (Genesis 26:5) Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). etc

No. Many different Greek words can be directly translated commandments for example parangelia, entalma, entolē etc. And the thing is Paul uses entolē to refer to his own commandments as "the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). It's a mistake to see "commandments" and refer to the Ten by default.

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
I don't really care if it's called a moral law or not. It's the law of God. that's what matters and he says what's right or wrong. I'm not going to go into this discussion because it's becoming ridiculous really and has nothing to do with the meaning of the sacrificial system or whatever "you" want to call it. The health rules are still important to us today and other things as well but no where does it say it is still binding. The laws simply no longer send us to hell, even though we break them willingly or unwillingly at times. Before it was "didn't care about God and his rules" until we believed and had faith in him. The whole point is God is refining us and guiding us with the Holy Spirit. Break the Sabbath is your problem. You want to make it so complicated go ahead.

You don't care if it's moral but you keep it because it's the law of God. The thing is, you are picking and choosing what "the law of God" is.

Your Mark 2:27 give nothing in your argument. You haven't proved anything. Jesus was reaffirming and keeping the Sabbath and telling them what they were doing with it was wrong. He was doing what it was in the 10 commandments all along. Sabbath was made for MAN, not Jew, not Israel, not Pharisee, not anything else but MAN. you cannot get any clearer than that yet you try to massacre a simple straightforward verse which shows me how you treat the bible as a whole, twist the words constantly. your Strong's definitions shows absolutely nothing also in the previous post that changes what it means. The debt of the death penalty is paid by Jesus instead of the sacrificial system in the rules of ordinances, it doesn't remove the Law it removes the debt to the Law. The Law is still there, Jesus is paying our fine. Just like when you go to jail and you do your time or someone bails you out. Do you get out and go do the exact same thing and break the law on purpose over and over again? No. Then we treat God the same way.

But your argument is: Why are we in debt? Sin. How do we know we sinned? The Ten. But here you are saying the ordinances were the thing that put us in debt:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

How can ordinances be against us? The wrath of God was against us because of our obligation to the covenant law including the Ten. I don't see how you are getting around this.

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

timothyu said:
Is not respect for God by honouring Him a moral act?

I would think yes. So then Deuteronomy 22:12, "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear."

Do you follow this command? Because based on your definition (which I agree with), it is a sin not to.

Andre_b · May 17, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
I would think yes. So then Deuteronomy 22:12, "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear."

Do you follow this command? Because based on your definition (which I agree with), it is a sin not to.

Looks like you are just trolling and ignoring everything written in the bible.

Andre_b · May 17, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
You don't care if it's moral but you keep it because it's the law of God. The thing is, you are picking and choosing what "the law of God" is.

But your argument is: Why are we in debt? Sin. How do we know we sinned? The Ten. But here you are saying the ordinances were the thing that put us in debt:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

How can ordinances be against us? The wrath of God was against us because of our obligation to the covenant law including the Ten. I don't see how you are getting around this.

Where does it say the wrath of God is against us, or that the 10 commandments were against us. You don't quote scripture to prove anything. You want me to prove it, i do and you twist the meaning of the verses. I just gave you the PROOF of 2 covenants given to Moses the book of the law and the 10 commandments. One on the side of the ark one in the ark. Or do you ignore this also and troll more? By picking laws that were in one covenant and not the other. You purposely ignore the covenant of Abraham in the New Testament is of the circumsicion of the heart, so the covenant is still being fulfilled, it was also prophecied in the Old Testament. Stop being ignorant and act like it's still in place and part of the same covenant as the 10. Again you mix separate Laws, commandments and covenants together. To act like they are all one and the same when they aren't and the bible shows this everywhere that they are DIFFERENT.

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
I don't see how the Sabbath points to Jesus. It says REMEMBER, the Sabbath to keep it Holy, For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It points backwards at CREATION week. The only possible forward I see is at the Millennial reign of Christ when we will truly rest physically as well as spiritually. The Sabbath is a physical rest of our job and labor. We are not resting physically so it cannot be the shadow of Christ fulfilled yet. We all work and labor still.

This is probably my favourite post of this entire thread. I appreciate your honesty and openness.

It is commonly thought that if we labour hard enough to be good we will be acceptable before God. But as we know one drop of poison makes the cup undrinkable. All that laboring ends when we receive Jesus. He gives us a whole new cup. We die to that old sinful man we were and begin again. Born again. Now our cup is Jesus. He lives in us. The perfect cup. No more labouring to be good because good works, bad works, it's all just works -- instead we live spiritually by our faith in Jesus. Our spiritual work is finished in Jesus. We can spiritually rest in Him. That rest we have in Him is what the Sabbath pointed forward to. I like how this article explains Hebrews 4, the defining chapter on our Sabbath rest in Christ:

After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against the Lord in the wilderness. Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs his readers not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience” (Hebrews 4:9–11)

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
Looks like you are just trolling and ignoring everything written in the bible.

I am arguing that from a law keeping perspective, you can't pick and choose. It is more reasonable to keep the whole thing than bits and pieces. Especially if the moral law is "Honour what God says", because that includes the Sabbath, the Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, etc.

Andre_b · May 17, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
This is probably my favourite post of this entire thread. I appreciate your honesty and openness.

It is commonly thought that if we labour hard enough to be good we will be acceptable before God. But as we know one drop of poison makes the cup undrinkable. All that laboring ends when we receive Jesus. He gives us a whole new cup. We die to that old sinful man we were and begin again. Born again. Now our cup is Jesus. He lives in us. The perfect cup. No more labouring to be good because good works, bad works, it's all just works -- instead we live spiritually by our faith in Jesus. Our spiritual work is finished in Jesus. We can spiritually rest in Him. That rest we have in Him is what the Sabbath pointed forward to. I like how this article explains Hebrews 4, the defining chapter on our Sabbath rest in Christ:

After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against the Lord in the wilderness. Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, “They shall not enter into My rest” (Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs his readers not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience” (Hebrews 4:9–11)

Yes and that rest wasn't fulfilled yet so keep twisting scriptures over and over. So according to you none of the Old Testament people will ever enter God's rest since they didn't obey God, so why wasn't the Sabbath removed then when they entered into Israel?

The rest is the MILLENIAL 7th day rest. Therefore there remains a rest. Meaning it hasn't come yet. Which the Sabbath day is used as an example. NOT REMOVING IT.

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
Yes and that rest wasn't fulfilled yet so keep twisting scriptures over and over. So according to you none of the Old Testament people will ever enter God's rest since they didn't obey God, so why wasn't the Sabbath removed then when they entered into Israel?

The rest is the MILLENIAL 7th day rest. Therefore there remains a rest. Meaning it hasn't come yet. Which the Sabbath day is used as an example. NOT REMOVING IT.

There could be more layers to the Sabbath as you mention, the millenial 7th day of rest. For sure. But Hebrews tell us to enter that rest today. Today do not harden your hearts.

I'm sorry I don't understand this question:

"why wasn't the Sabbath removed then when they entered into Israel?"

Who is the "they" you are talking about? And what time period are you talking about?

YouAreAwesome · May 17, 2020

Andre_b said:
I just gave you the PROOF of 2 covenants given to Moses the book of the law and the 10 commandments. One on the side of the ark one in the ark. Or do you ignore this also and troll more?

Do you believe Israel entered into two covenants with God because the law is placed in two different parts of the Ark? If you do, I suggest you read about what a covenant actually is. I'd be happy to explain if you want me to. I've written it many times on these forums because it's so often misunderstood.

Andre_b said:
You purposely ignore the covenant of Abraham in the New Testament is of the circumsicion of the heart, so the covenant is still being fulfilled, it was also prophecied in the Old Testament.

Great, okay. So if circumcision was an eternal law given to Abraham as a physical sign that later became an internal sign, then can you see how the Sabbath can take the same road?

Andre_b said:
Stop being ignorant and act like it's still in place and part of the same covenant as the 10.

It was a part of the same covenant as the ten. Leviticus 12:3 tells every Israelite boy to be circumcised on the eighth day. Where did you get the idea that two different covenants exist because laws are placed in different areas within the Most Holy Place?

Is the Sabbath an eternal moral law for humanity?

Is the weekly Sabbath an eternal moral law for humanity?

Yes

No

I don't know

I can't answer because I need to explain my position

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